ZOMBIE FORUMS

It's a stinking, shambling corpse grotesquely parodying life.
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 Post subject: Re: Yes!
PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2007 11:23 pm 
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Location: Nyon, CH, near Geneve, on the shores of the Lac Leman. The heart of Suisse Romande.
BandMan2K wrote:
Slamlander wrote:
After 18 months of unemployment, Salegamine got a job in Geneva, last December. Unfortunately, this means that we have to move to Nyon or have her incur a 5 hour per day commute (2.5 hr train ride each way). I should be able to bring in more contract work too, once we get there.

On the other hand, as an Oracle database developer, she's bringing in some decent cash now. I sent you what I could and may do more after payday. Salegamine wishes you guys the best as well.

Slowly digging out of the pit,
Your friendly neighborhood Slamlander



Well, got ya added as a friend in my LJ but I must admit I was a bit shocked about one thing: In all this time, I didn't know you lived in Europe, let alone Switzerland.


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I've been here close to four years now.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2007 11:24 am 
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A members section with colored and more 'real' content would be awesome. Throw in an occasional extra comic not available outside and you'd have me sold.

The occasional comic doesn't even have to be plot driven. Something in between that would normally be left out. IE for the perverts of us (I include me in this one) a comic of Riley and Leah going at it. Or some extra plot line or peice of information that we're missing but isn't intergral to the story line.

Donations are great, but if you make it worth it for us to send in money it'll help push up revenue that much more. How many of us go to the supermarket and spend and extra $3 on brand name soda and then give the salvation army guy less than a quarter in change.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2007 12:03 pm 
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We're working on the members section, but it's a multi-stage process. First, we have to get all the site designs to be more modular so that they can be transferred to a different server and changed around more readily while we update our current server. Then we have to update our current server. Then we have to put everything back and make sure it still works.

While all that's going on, we have to develop a subscription system that works across all the sites and is designed to run on the newly updated server. We have to generate the new content for this system as well.

All that would cost us several months and many thousands of dollars if we hired someone to do it. Since we're going on volunteers, it takes a heck of a lot longer. It'll all be moot if we don't get enough donations for the time being.

^-^'

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2007 3:30 pm 
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Impy, do you accept Paypal for buying banner ad placements? I checked the Advertisements page and it doesn't specify.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2007 7:05 pm 
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Wouldn't it be more, endearing, to support the comic on the viable exchange of worldly goods, than trying to squeeze the same reader base again and again, month after for month, for donations and now memberships?


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2007 7:26 pm 
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I'm sorry, in what reality did say you you grew up?

In mine, people are in no way required to give you high quality free entertainment, it's incredibly generous for them to do so, and how DARE you insinuate that it is unreasonable for us to politely request that those who wish the comic to continue (who are able and willing to do so) contribute so that it can?! How DARE you imply that to require a very modest fee to enjoy ADDITIONAL high-quality entertainment and associated services while in no way eliminating the continued enjoyment of the comic for free that it costs us both time and money to produce would be somehow wrong!

How DARE you imply that you are somehow ENTITLED to read this comic for nothing! What utter bullshit! This comic is a product, plain and simple. We've paid the cost of time and money to produce it, and we're under no obligation to share it with anyone if they don't meet our price. Yet, instead of making it subscription only, or print only, we've generously shared it with the entire world, merely asking that those who can and who wish to support it financially help make it feasible for us to KEEP making it available to the entire world.

If the comic itself isn't a worldly good you can appreciate is worth your money, then by all means do without it!

>.<'

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2007 7:44 pm 
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Believe wrote:
Impy, do you accept Paypal for buying banner ad placements? I checked the Advertisements page and it doesn't specify.


We accept Paypal for the advertisements, yes.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2007 8:00 pm 
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Isn't "giving away for free" linked to the medium in which the comic is being published? Outside the old "get an advance that will be deducted from future sales/certain percentage of royalties" publishing model that is reliant on a third party with the ability to advertise (thus spend money) to make money, there really isn't a way to generate revenue on a comic or material that doesn't have the ability to make itself known, and has to solicit itself on its own merits and word of mouth exposure. Or from exposure within a limited and specific group of parties (in this case, whatever comic communities are on the web and how far/committed the fan base is to the "cause of the comic")

I do not say I or anyone else am entitled to the work that Poe produces, merely ask the question of "How would anyone know of it otherwise?"

And I apologize for sounding crass earlier, just that I understand the need, not the economics behind trying to solicit donations in a constant, month after month fashion from the same group of people, then culminating in a massive donation drive which tries to solicit more money from a fan base that has already supported the comic in multiple ways, then to ask for support in another fashion.

Rephrase the question: How to survive on a goods/donation based system when the pool of those most likely to donate/buy a book in multiple formats, are only from a small yet supportive group of readers? Just this would surely have its limits.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2007 8:55 pm 
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Of course it isn't an ideal system, but in the absence of another workable solution, it's the only one we've got. We're enormously grateful to the relatively small percentage of our readers who ever donate or buy the books or other products, because we're perfectly well aware that the comic wouldn't be able to exist without them. Fortunately, they're aware of that too, or the comic would have stopped being available a long long time ago.

In fact it is my fervent wish that more of our readers actually were aware of that, because if only EVERYONE would contribute some tiny amount, the comic would be no burden at all. With 115,000 readers... even after all the paypal fees, a dollar or two a year from each reader would be more than enough to run the comic with LOTS of extras, if only everyone could be convinced to skip a soda or a cup of coffee once a year to help keep the comic going. I simply don't understand why so many people feel that's too much to ask, and it just infuriates me when someone implies that they're somehow entitled to enjoy the fruits of someone else's labor for free.

Publishing, incidentally, also draws the money directly from the readers, it just passes through the bookstore, the distributor, and the publisher and the associated costs of all those companies before it gets to the author. The only thing webcomics change is to cut out the middlemen, and to offer the initial product (which is the ability to read an entertaining story, rather than the paper and ink of a book) on a VOLUNTARY payment basis.

-_-'

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2007 9:18 pm 
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I apologize for making a post that required a response which sounds as if it has been repeated quite a few times, in trying to support your own place and current status, which isn't and should never be necessary.

And that was the mistake I made, trying to separate the economics and need; everything is kinda just what happens.

About publishing houses; books are mainly entertainment in some form, and thus arn't truly a need so much as a diversion. Then its the proposal and the ability of the large publisher to make an audience aware and feel the necessity of owning or reading a book (Opera's book club being a more less captured audience). As the larger audiences have already been taken, it is difficult for a "to pay" model to work for smaller ventures; essentially, it is about trying to convince someone to pay for something they have absolutely no connection or relation to.

So... I guess the difficulty as stated in a previous post (and taken in the "Hey! I'm an ass and an economist!" view) is, making money off a product while trying to bring an audience into that product. With limited access to already gathered groups of sheeps, then its the individual level of interaction and trying to sell the product off to each person as opposed to the marketing mentality of groups.

Making the entire product open and freely available appears to be one way to solve this issue. Another would be to offer a secondary "for profit," more time consuming item atop an easily created, freely available one. Noticed many of the Keenspot comics do this one off endeavor (Devil's Panties comes to mind. On 13 books with a quickly drawn three panel, daily strip).

Anyway... I still need to get my "Selling out for Fun and Profit" hard cover signed... And ah... Maybe my ES books?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2007 1:23 pm 
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Membership service is actually cheaper than buying comics at a store.

Most Marvel/DC comics average an issue every month/month and a half (besides that 52 bullshit, which pops one out every week) at 24 pages a book(average.) Last Wednesday when I geeked it up my comics cost $6.50 each, with the special Captain America's death issue coming in over $25.

The average subscription service for online comics (from the ones I subscribe to) is one to three dollars. Poe averages 12 comics a month and if they land it in the 2 dollar a month range you'll be saving $2.50 per comic "book."

Impy said something about a $10 a year deal, so that'd be even better.

Yes, Poe isn't as fast as the mainstream comics, but he doesn't have a team of artists helping him out. He has to draw it, ink it and shade it all by himself which is usually handled by 3 dudes for every comic. That's 8 pages per guy per month, while Poe does 12.

I think it's one hell of a deal.

(I might have rambled a bit there, sorry if I'm a little hard to follow.)

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2007 5:59 pm 
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I see that you mentioned a subscription, have you considered something like what Bill Holbrook does with the daily sponsor and patron programs for Kevin and Kell?

http://www.kevinandkell.com/support/dailysponsor.html

http://www.kevinandkell.com/support/patron.html


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2007 6:10 pm 
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Most of the changes we've considered for these systems are being held back by the way our current site functions. We're in the process of overhauling that, and once it has been we'll likely overhaul the donations system and subscription options at the same time.

^-^'

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2007 3:34 am 
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Logic wrote:
Membership service is actually cheaper than buying comics at a store.

Most Marvel/DC comics average an issue every month/month and a half (besides that 52 bullshit, which pops one out every week) at 24 pages a book(average.) Last Wednesday when I geeked it up my comics cost $6.50 each, with the special Captain America's death issue coming in over $25.

The average subscription service for online comics (from the ones I subscribe to) is one to three dollars. Poe averages 12 comics a month and if they land it in the 2 dollar a month range you'll be saving $2.50 per comic "book."

Impy said something about a $10 a year deal, so that'd be even better.

Yes, Poe isn't as fast as the mainstream comics, but he doesn't have a team of artists helping him out. He has to draw it, ink it and shade it all by himself which is usually handled by 3 dudes for every comic. That's 8 pages per guy per month, while Poe does 12.

I think it's one hell of a deal.

(I might have rambled a bit there, sorry if I'm a little hard to follow.)


Despite your "logic," I'm afraid I'm going to have to speak for the internet and say that nobody would pay a subscription for a webcomic. Okay, I'm sure you could find SOMEbody, but they don't count. Its just not the way the internet works. Heck, Penny Arcade could start asking for a subscription (I know they don't need one, bear with me), and despite its popularity I'm sure most people would just get angry and learn to live without it. A move like that with this webcomic would surely kill it dead, since it isn't exactly mega-popular to begin with. Webcomics are, by nature, free to just look at. Anything different would be an unwanted abhorance.

Though I'm not denying the need for income. And therein lies the rub...


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2007 8:52 am 
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What part of "The comic in no way would stop being offered for free" aren't people reading?

This subscription service would be a SUPPLEMENT. Look at Sluggy, then imagine it being done without denying the newsposts to your average joe non-subscription reader. Something more like that, not "You can't read Errant Story unless you pay us first."

I'd be nicer about this, but I've said it a dozen times in this thread alone, and I'm really tired of being nice.

^-^'

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2007 10:55 am 
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Darlos wrote:
Logic wrote:
Membership service is actually cheaper than buying comics at a store.

Most Marvel/DC comics average an issue every month/month and a half (besides that 52 bullshit, which pops one out every week) at 24 pages a book(average.) Last Wednesday when I geeked it up my comics cost $6.50 each, with the special Captain America's death issue coming in over $25.

The average subscription service for online comics (from the ones I subscribe to) is one to three dollars. Poe averages 12 comics a month and if they land it in the 2 dollar a month range you'll be saving $2.50 per comic "book."

Impy said something about a $10 a year deal, so that'd be even better.

Yes, Poe isn't as fast as the mainstream comics, but he doesn't have a team of artists helping him out. He has to draw it, ink it and shade it all by himself which is usually handled by 3 dudes for every comic. That's 8 pages per guy per month, while Poe does 12.

I think it's one hell of a deal.

(I might have rambled a bit there, sorry if I'm a little hard to follow.)

Comeplete Drivle.


Just a couple of [url=sluggy.com]comics[/url] with subscriptions services which people supposedly don't subscribe to.

Even Penny-Arcade had a subscriptions service back in the day. Called it Club PA.[/url]

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2007 12:08 pm 
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Logic wrote:
Even Penny-Arcade had a subscriptions service back in the day. Called it Club PA.[/url]


Logically it would follow that one asked the question 'Why don't they have a subscription service now?'

Too subtle?

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2007 12:30 pm 
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They became popular enough to sustain themselves without it? I mean, they throw a huge con every year.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2007 1:43 pm 
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as for ads, did you try adbrite.com yet?

there are two online communities i go to that use them for general revenue, if you have it at the bottem, and users click once per day, it racks up over time, and i do not believe they have a strict TOS

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2007 12:14 am 
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onion wrote:
Logically it would follow that one asked the question 'Why don't they have a subscription service now?'


They started making enough money off ad revenue and merchandise that they didn't need it anymore.

It wasn't really a subscription service so much as a donation system anyway - in fact, it was very similar to the current system for ES. They had occasional long-form extra strips, but nothing huge.

Logic cited Willis's subscription system. I think it's a good idea - in addition to his free MWF strip you get a bonus TR strip and a wallpaper for $2/month. I don't know how well this translate to ES, though - a lot more work (I suspect) goes into a single ES strip than a single Shortpacked! strip (even if it is in color - Willis doesn't really do backgrounds).

That said, to drive this point home, is all examples of successful donation and bonus subscription systems still have the original free content that people are visiting the site for in the first place. As Impy said, they're supplements, not replacements.


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