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 Post subject: April 04 2007: "Well, kind of. I-"
PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2007 10:22 pm 
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Thats right, luuuuuull him in with the stotic and factual conversation, then hit him outta nowhere with the rage and hate!

Seems that my ides that not all the the potential Time Monks make it out alive is right, since Sara doesn't seem to like how they treated her. They seem to need to work on their loyalty brainwashing however.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2007 10:36 pm 
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Totally unexpected, and very awesome, though I think the odds of her shivving Jon if/when she gets outta the cuffs hasn't gone down any.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2007 10:36 pm 
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I think she's referring to the hellhole of the Orphanarium.

Still, that's got to be some major angst buildup. Why didn't he come get her? What meanest only "kind of"?


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 Post subject: Re: April 04 2007: "Well, kind of. I-"
PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2007 10:36 pm 
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Rubber Band Man wrote:
Thats right, luuuuuull him in with the stotic and factual conversation, then hit him outta nowhere with the rage and hate!

Seems that my ides that not all the the potential Time Monks make it out alive is right, since Sara doesn't seem to like how they treated her. They seem to need to work on their loyalty brainwashing however.


I think Sara was calling the orphanage a hell-hole, not the Ensigerum. Jon didn't know Sara had joined the Order, just that she had been sent to an orphanage; which is pretty much what he just said. She's wondering why he didn't come see her in the orphanage after their mom died.

Also, this adds to my "Jon and Sara's family have latent magical ability" theory. The Ensigerum didn't just come by and say "hey who wants to join the Order" and Sara joined up - they saw potential in her especially. Maybe it was just something about her personality, someone they thought would be easily molded into shape; or maybe it was a more esoteric sort of potential, a kind that might run in the family...

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 Post subject: Re: April 04 2007: "Well, kind of. I-"
PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2007 10:44 pm 
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Forrest wrote:
Also, this adds to my "Jon and Sara's family have latent magical ability" theory. The Ensigerum didn't just come by and say "hey who wants to join the Order" and Sara joined up - they saw potential in her especially. Maybe it was just something about her personality, someone they thought would be easily molded into shape; or maybe it was a more esoteric sort of potential, a kind that might run in the family...


First page of chapter 23 tells of Sara's magic.


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 Post subject: Re: April 04 2007: "Well, kind of. I-"
PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2007 10:48 pm 
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Forrest wrote:
Also, this adds to my "Jon and Sara's family have latent magical ability" theory. The Ensigerum didn't just come by and say "hey who wants to join the Order" and Sara joined up - they saw potential in her especially. Maybe it was just something about her personality, someone they thought would be easily molded into shape; or maybe it was a more esoteric sort of potential, a kind that might run in the family...

That would make a _great_ multi-page flashback, I wonder why it hasn't happened yet?


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2007 10:48 pm 
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As to why Jon didn't see her in the orphanage, if it isn't obvious - he's a frikken *assassin*. Therefore has enemies who'd love to get to him via her, etc.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2007 10:49 pm 
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So, she hasn't had all the caring and anger trained or beaten out of her.

Now's the time for Jon to lay on some charm, and thick. He could bring her back into the fold at this time, and with her intimate knowledge of the Ensigerum, she could help turn the tide of the seemingly inevitable war.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2007 11:14 pm 
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bellofthedamned wrote:
So, she hasn't had all the caring and anger trained or beaten out of her.

Now's the time for Jon to lay on some charm, and thick. He could bring her back into the fold at this time, and with her intimate knowledge of the Ensigerum, she could help turn the tide of the seemingly inevitable war.


I'm going to go to hell for this, but that might not be the best course of action; directly citing the last time Jon was in this position, trying to talk down someone in pretty much this exact same emotional situation, and what came of it.

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 Post subject: Re: April 04 2007: "Well, kind of. I-"
PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2007 11:43 pm 
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That was totally expected and I was waiting for it. Others were too, I'm sure. No, it's not always rational but most humans in her circumstances would harbor resentment. That girl that was kidnapped in Austria and held for 8 years (and only recently found) had some resentment towards her parents for not finding her (like they didn't try hard enough). This is something that Sara and Jon have to work out.

After that, however, The Bookies ain't taking any bets against the fact that Sarine is now wide awake and listening intently. Elf ears are delicate, sensitive, and at the moment, probably still ringing from that blast. If she wasn't awake before, she certainly is now.

So the next page is either going to be Jon's explanation or his cop-out.

However, we have a story inconsistancy. Early on, it was said that Jon actually came back after his mom died to arrange for the care of Sara. Now, she's saying that he never showed up. The only possible explanation is that he took care of things but avoided seeing her, knowing that he could never be her guardian and stay with the Wraiths. He may have also been honoring his mothers insistance to keep her out of assassin school (that failed) and getting her involved with the Wraiths wouldn't do that. Also, Jon may indeed be ashamed of what he really does for a living. His mom laid a really heavy guilt-trip on him when he left.

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Forrest wrote:
Also, this adds to my "Jon and Sara's family have latent magical ability" theory. The Ensigerum didn't just come by and say "hey who wants to join the Order" and Sara joined up - they saw potential in her especially. Maybe it was just something about her personality, someone they thought would be easily molded into shape; or maybe it was a more esoteric sort of potential, a kind that might run in the family...

That would make a _great_ multi-page flashback, I wonder why it hasn't happened yet?


from that text wrote:
From the rest of the surviving novices


Ensigerum training isn't nice. It could easily be characterised as a hellhole. This does support the thesis that mage talents are inherent to the individual. If so, they are genetic and since they share the same genes, Jon might have various degrees of mage talent himself. But then, he might not. It's a dice throw either way.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2007 12:15 am 
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aurynn wrote:
I think she's referring to the hellhole of the Orphanarium.

Still, that's got to be some major angst buildup. Why didn't he come get her? What meanest only "kind of"?


Yes, she is indeed refering to the Orphanarium, even she doesn't expect Jon to have visited her in the ensigerum village.

I had feared there would be some confusion on that one.


Last edited by Michael Poe on Wed Apr 04, 2007 2:13 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: April 04 2007: "Well, kind of. I-"
PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2007 12:22 am 
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Slamlander wrote:
Ensigerum training isn't nice. It could easily be characterised as a hellhole. This does support the thesis that mage talents are inherent to the individual. If so, they are genetic and since they share the same genes, Jon might have various degrees of mage talent himself. But then, he might not. It's a dice throw either way.


True, but: A) she says that eventually the Ensigerum came and got her, clearly implying that she spent no small period of time in the orphanage; and B) she knows the time monk's capabilities better than anyone else present, would she really expect Jon to come and try to spring her from the Order, even if he could find their secret village?

It's really moot anyway when you consider this: Jon only knows that their mother died. Logically, he can figure that Sara has been sent to an orphanage. However, just the knowledge that mom is dead doesn't provide any clues that would make him think 'Sara has been sent to an orphanage and recruited by the ensigerum'. Sara must be referring to the orphanage, because that's the only hellhole that Jon could have known she'd be all by herself in.

EDIT: Beat by Poe, nevermind.

In any case, it's a bit scary to see these highly emotional family issues, same as any normal people would have in this situation, except that in this case it's between a couple of stone killers.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2007 3:51 am 
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Mista_B wrote:
As to why Jon didn't see her in the orphanage, if it isn't obvious - he's a frikken *assassin*. Therefore has enemies who'd love to get to him via her, etc.


Alright you thats enough of your logic and thought out ideas. Next thing you know someone will be bringing up the fact that Jon probably wanted to shield Sara from his life as an assassin for the emotional reasons. Despite their mother being a cold hearted bitch who died at a really bad time, she had some pretty good ideas that Jon was becoming like the men who killed her husband/Jon & Sara's father. At least that's probably what Jon feels and he was ashamed of himself for it.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2007 4:01 am 
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normalphil wrote:
bellofthedamned wrote:
So, she hasn't had all the caring and anger trained or beaten out of her.

Now's the time for Jon to lay on some charm, and thick. He could bring her back into the fold at this time, and with her intimate knowledge of the Ensigerum, she could help turn the tide of the seemingly inevitable war.

I'm going to go to hell for this, but that might not be the best course of action; directly citing the last time Jon was in this position, trying to talk down someone in pretty much this exact same emotional situation, and what came of it.

Yeah, "charm" isn't exactly Jon's strong point. He might have to borrow some from the neighbors if he wants to get anywhere.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2007 4:02 am 
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trVekor wrote:
Mista_B wrote:
As to why Jon didn't see her in the orphanage, if it isn't obvious - he's a frikken *assassin*. Therefore has enemies who'd love to get to him via her, etc.

Alright, you, that's enough of your logic and thought out ideas. Next thing you know someone will be bringing up the fact that Jon probably wanted to shield Sara from his life as an assassin for the emotional reasons. Despite their mother being a cold hearted bitch who died at a really bad time, she had some pretty good ideas that Jon was becoming like the men who killed her husband/Jon & Sara's father. At least that's probably what Jon feels and he was ashamed of himself for it.

Which is more or less the assumed motive behind his odd relationship with Meji.

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 Post subject: Re: April 04 2007: "Well, kind of. I-"
PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2007 4:47 am 
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Mord wrote:


And note the text beside the last illustration: "...When the surviving Novices..."

I could Imagine the Ensigerum wasn't the place to have a happy childhood either. I could see Sara holding the last 10 years against her brother.

Still, Jon's explanation/confession should provide some more character insight. And if Sarine is listening, it might spark enough compassion in her to boff him again. :wink:


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2007 4:49 am 
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Michael Poe wrote:
I had feared there would be some confusion on that one.

No, no. The way it was written, the sentence actually made sense. Some people are just goofy.


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 Post subject: Re: April 04 2007: "Well, kind of. I-"
PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2007 6:30 am 
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Slamlander wrote:
However, we have a story inconsistancy. Early on, it was said that Jon actually came back after his mom died to arrange for the care of Sara. Now, she's saying that he never showed up. The only possible explanation is that he took care of things but avoided seeing her, knowing that he could never be her guardian and stay with the Wraiths. He may have also been honoring his mothers insistance to keep her out of assassin school (that failed) and getting her involved with the Wraiths wouldn't do that. Also, Jon may indeed be ashamed of what he really does for a living. His mom laid a really heavy guilt-trip on him when he left.


Say what? I've looked for this reference without success; the closest I've come to finding anything similar is here. But there Jon is just rationalizing (more to himself than to Mandi) that things probably turned out better for Sara than if he had gotten involved. He knew she'd gone to the orphanage, but his little soliloquy doesn't imply that he had anything to do with her after that. Quite the contrary, which was why he was telling himself about this imaginary "family" that could give her the better life. Little did he know...

Incidentally, if there's another reference that I've missed, please update the "Mentioned In" entry on the wiki page for Sara. It's possible that the mentions list is incomplete.

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 Post subject: Re: April 04 2007: "Well, kind of. I-"
PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2007 6:41 am 
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Initial B wrote:
Still, Jon's explanation/confession should provide some more character insight. And if Sarine is listening, it might spark enough compassion in her to boff him again. :wink:


Yes, Sarine might even allow him to remember it this time. :wink:

However, if you will recall, the reason she damped the memory, the last time, is that Jon began to get all soppy afterwards. Unless he's paying for it, he's a plushie toy and not really used to casual non-professional sex. For someone like Sarine, this could be more than a passing inconvenience. The last thing she wants is a complicated involvement with yet another human. Just think what the other elves will say. :wink:

No, Poe has spoken. Sara was definitely refering to the orphanage. But you're right, time monk school wasn't exactly a barrel of laughs either.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2007 7:01 am 
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Hmmm. Puzzling.

Entirely valid question by Sara. How does leaving his sister to the wolves fit in with the character of Jon, The Assasin with the Heart of Gold (Especially When it Comes to Vulnerable or Hard Done by Women?)

I can dig that this part of his character probably came from his failure to protect Sara, or guilt over it, but the questions remains- why didn't he? He stuck to his mothers dying wish of staying out of her life, or he was too preoccupied with assasinating people and she wouldn't fit into his hectic killing-peoples lifestyle, or he had every intention of doing so, but arrived too late? The first could've been solved with some badass 'watching from the shadows to see she's ok, but leaving her be' shennenigans, the second has some underlying selfish motivations, which doesn't fit, and the third is a valid excuse- 'I was GONNA, but those monks took you away and I coudn't find you until now, whereupon I bullied the elf into letting me rescue you.' 'Oh. Well... okay then.'

Be interesting to see his response. I hope Poe doesn't cop out with a stony silence on Jon's part.

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