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PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2007 1:25 am 
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Actually, my comment came from the perspective of horseback riding- a sport which combines elements of animal training, yoga, tai-chi, acrobatics, nonverbal communication skill and extreme sports (the only sportspeople who break more bones than horseback riders are surfers- this having something to do with being tethered by the ankle to a large wooden plank while being tossed through a barrel-rolling wall of turbulent water).

A lot of riding instructors actually hate talented students- at least, beginning students with talent- because they lack the humility to take orders. Which is absolutely necessary, because you can't see exactly how you're affecting the horse when you're on its back- and a horse is not a sword or a surfboard, but a sentient being with reactions, emotions, and easily-damaged legs. And every time you get on a horse, you're training it. So a talented but arrogant student can completely and permanently ruin a horse- throw it off balance and cause it to fall, train in habits or fears that can become dangerous to horse and rider, cause repetitive stress injuries, occasionally even cause permanent nerve damage. It's like having a dance partner who doesn't know the choreography and needs to be cued entirely by touch- and their health and future as a dancer depend completely on how well you pull off the performance. (Not entirely true- horses have different levels of talent just like humans- but it must be repeatedly hammered into the beginning rider's head- you are in control- therefore anything goes wrong is your fault, not the horse's.)

I could go on- but the point is that riding instructors tend not only to have an urgent motive for you the student to get things right, early on, and thereafter do it consistently- lesson horses often belong to the instructors, and are used for multiple students (reason being it takes a lot of time, effort, skill, and meticulous hard work to train a horse who won't just get irritated with her "naturally talented" beginning rider and fling her headfirst into the arena wall at the earliest opportunity)- anyway, not only that, but riding instructors tend to know that they are right. Being caught between instructors who both know that they are right, and further are right in ways which contradict one another entirely, can quickly become hellish for both horse and rider. These circumstances can also lead to magnificently far-reaching feuds between Masters of the Art which can make a samurai-warrior melodrama look like kiddies playing in the sandbox.

This is largely the reason I got out of horseback riding. Despite being praised so often for being "naturally talented." My horse is still teaching, though. I'm proud of her. She's a smart girl, she only flings riders into arena walls when they really deserve it.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2007 5:48 am 
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Even <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fa_cup#Famous_Shock_Results">non-league</a> sides have their day :-)

I've been thinking of how Elves actually store all that knowledge - those thousands of years - how much they must forget. Veterans invariably have a huge amount of bad memories, of nightmares. Killing is a brutal business. The amount of magic they must use up to forget what they've done, how much is wiped out, how much this affects their skill-levels (if they can be made to forget the combat, that means what? how much is forgotten?). As they grow older, does the scar-tissue remain? How much that must affect them. No wonder she's miserable.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2007 7:11 am 
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ri[[3r wrote:
Even <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fa_cup#Famous_Shock_Results">non-league</a> sides have their day :-)

I've been thinking of how Elves actually store all that knowledge - those thousands of years - how much they must forget. Veterans invariably have a huge amount of bad memories, of nightmares. Killing is a brutal business. The amount of magic they must use up to forget what they've done, how much is wiped out, how much this affects their skill-levels (if they can be made to forget the combat, that means what? how much is forgotten?). As they grow older, does the scar-tissue remain? How much that must affect them. No wonder she's miserable.


Even in human terms, as you get older you start to ignore the details and only remember the events. Complex decisions made long ago get reduced to what you wound up doing and the reasoning the led up to it seems unimportant. In short, you wind up remembering decisions and not why they were made.

Why did we stick with Intel 8086 and not move to Motorola 68000 or Zilog Z8000, which were more powerful? I forget, I just remember that we did and that the reason why is not important. Thirty years later, I still have grey-cell capacity. It is obvious that elves go through similar excersizes. Ask anyone over 50 or so and you'll hear the same thing. The difference is only in what they chose to remove to secondary storage.

Do remember this though, the storage capacity is damned near infinite. Where we biologicals mess up is in the indices. The memories are there, they just become harder and more work to find.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2007 7:38 am 
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Slamlander wrote:
ri[[3r wrote:
Even <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fa_cup#Famous_Shock_Results">non-league</a> sides have their day :-)

I've been thinking of how Elves actually store all that knowledge - those thousands of years - how much they must forget. Veterans invariably have a huge amount of bad memories, of nightmares. Killing is a brutal business. The amount of magic they must use up to forget what they've done, how much is wiped out, how much this affects their skill-levels (if they can be made to forget the combat, that means what? how much is forgotten?). As they grow older, does the scar-tissue remain? How much that must affect them. No wonder she's miserable.


Even in human terms, as you get older you start to ignore the details and only remember the events. Complex decisions made long ago get reduced to what you wound up doing and the reasoning the led up to it seems unimportant. In short, you wind up remembering decisions and not why they were made.

Why did we stick with Intel 8086 and not move to Motorola 68000 or Zilog Z8000, which were more powerful? I forget, I just remember that we did and that the reason why is not important. Thirty years later, I still have grey-cell capacity. It is obvious that elves go through similar excersizes. Ask anyone over 50 or so and you'll hear the same thing. The difference is only in what they chose to remove to secondary storage.

Do remember this though, the storage capacity is damned near infinite. Where we biologicals mess up is in the indices. The memories are there, they just become harder and more work to find.


Sure, I hear what you're saying about memory storage. I wonder what the words is on Elf PTSD? I wonder if PTSD screws with the storage or with the retreival?

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2007 8:11 am 
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Things such as combat skill are much less based on Cognitive Memory and more determined by Muscle Memory. Things learned by Reflex.

Tactical Planning and Strategy, on the other hand, draws much more from Memory itself, but still not entirely. Learning how to logically work out problems such as 'how do you blow up the bridge with patrols going across it, razor wire lining the river beds, and guard towers on either side' is also like an exercised muscle.

But knowing what has/hasn't worked in the past is pretty valuable too.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2007 9:40 am 
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ri[[3r wrote:
Slamlander wrote:
ri[[3r wrote:
Even <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fa_cup#Famous_Shock_Results">non-league</a> sides have their day :-)

I've been thinking of how Elves actually store all that knowledge - those thousands of years - how much they must forget. Veterans invariably have a huge amount of bad memories, of nightmares. Killing is a brutal business. . . . It is obvious that elves go through similar excersizes. Ask anyone over 50 or so and you'll hear the same thing. The difference is only in what they chose to remove to secondary storage.

Do remember this though, the storage capacity is damned near infinite. Where we biologicals mess up is in the indices. The memories are there, they just become harder and more work to find.


Sure, I hear what you're saying about memory storage. I wonder what the words is on Elf PTSD? I wonder if PTSD screws with the storage or with the retreival?

Important to note that Post Traumatic Stress Disorder is a culturally defined condition. Fatalistic "Warrior races" will suffer little or none of it. Typical peasant cultures handle war-time trauma differently than the individualistic Western middle classes. That is not to say they don't suffer from trauma "like we do" (a racist fallacy), but that they have different coping mechanisms, mostly out of necessity. If you own five acres of rice paddy with pointed sticks your only tool, if you have five kids and your aging parents to take care of, along with tending the graves of ten other siblings and children who didn't make it to adulthood, you either cope or die. Religion, clan, and neighbors all help each other. There is no one else.

The Elves appear to be more like the modern Western culture of Tsaikaru tthen any other local human culture, but their immortality is a wild card. Their bodies have to be able to perfectly restore tissue damage or any Elf more than a couple of centuries old will look like a terminal leprosy case. The same could be said of their emotional and intellectual states. They are still someone a human can communicate with, even after millennia of life experiences.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2007 10:24 am 
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Slamlander wrote:
ri[[3r wrote:
I hope Sara thrashes Sarine's arse.


Forlorn hope, that is. Sarine is an Elf. Aside from being longer lived (we'll get back to that), Elves are stronger and faster than humans. They are not so by a minor increment, rather they are substantially stronger and faster. They can also channel orders of magnitude more magical energy than the best human mage.

In opposition, Sara is pure human. Yes, she had an edge in her use of time magic. However, that was mainly an edge of surprise which is now lost. I suspect that Sarine can probably do similar but it may have side-effects that disturb elves and that's why she doesn't use it. That does not mean that Elves haven't developed a counter to it, in the past three millenia, once they know to expect it. As an off-hand example, simply putting up well chosen tactical wards will even things up immensly.

However, where we can see your argument vis-a-vis talent, is with Jon, when he simultaneously saved Sarine's bacon and captured Sara. Sara has yet to show that level of talent. She's not up to her brother's talent, why she was captured by Jon. Compared to Sara, Jon's in a whole other league. Even without time magic, he kicks-ass. Yes, he has "it", whereas Sara does not, as much. Note that even Jon cannot get the drop on Sarine.

Note that Sarine has "it", she's an Elf, and she's had three thousand years to perfect her skill, as well as surviving the Errant War on the side of the half-elves. This means that she has survived against huge odds. Given no nasty surprises, like time magic, she's gonna pwn Sara. :wink:


I would say that your example of Jon actually supports my contention that things you've learned (knowledge/skill) are as important as your natural abilities (talent). Jon used what he had learned about the time ninjas to take down Sara and set up Warrel in one move. What makes Jon special is that he can think that fast in combat -- that's a talent, honed by experience. I'll chalk being able to make the shots in two different directions up to a combination of talent and years of practice.


To use a real-world example, if talent trumpted skill/knowledge, rookies wouldn't have such an adjustment to go through when they enter the big league pro ranks. In some sports, it can take years in the minor leagues before a player is ready for the big show. Why? Because they have a lot to learn.

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Last edited by Killjoy on Thu Apr 26, 2007 10:34 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2007 10:28 am 
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KurtDunn wrote:
Things such as combat skill are much less based on Cognitive Memory and more determined by Muscle Memory. Things learned by Reflex.

Tactical Planning and Strategy, on the other hand, draws much more from Memory itself, but still not entirely. Learning how to logically work out problems such as 'how do you blow up the bridge with patrols going across it, razor wire lining the river beds, and guard towers on either side' is also like an exercised muscle.

But knowing what has/hasn't worked in the past is pretty valuable too.


Even muscle memory is developed by training, by practice, by learning, rather than by some innate ability (talent). It's a different kind of knowledge.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2007 11:35 am 
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Killjoy wrote:
Slamlander wrote:
ri[[3r wrote:
I hope Sara thrashes Sarine's arse.


Forlorn hope, that is. Sarine is an Elf. Aside from being longer lived (we'll get back to that), Elves are stronger and faster than humans. They are not so by a minor increment, rather they are substantially stronger and faster. They can also channel orders of magnitude more magical energy than the best human mage.

In opposition, Sara is pure human. Yes, she had an edge in her use of time magic. However, that was mainly an edge of surprise which is now lost. I suspect that Sarine can probably do similar but it may have side-effects that disturb elves and that's why she doesn't use it. That does not mean that Elves haven't developed a counter to it, in the past three millenia, once they know to expect it. As an off-hand example, simply putting up well chosen tactical wards will even things up immensly.

However, where we can see your argument vis-a-vis talent, is with Jon, when he simultaneously saved Sarine's bacon and captured Sara. Sara has yet to show that level of talent. She's not up to her brother's talent, why she was captured by Jon. Compared to Sara, Jon's in a whole other league. Even without time magic, he kicks-ass. Yes, he has "it", whereas Sara does not, as much. Note that even Jon cannot get the drop on Sarine.

Note that Sarine has "it", she's an Elf, and she's had three thousand years to perfect her skill, as well as surviving the Errant War on the side of the half-elves. This means that she has survived against huge odds. Given no nasty surprises, like time magic, she's gonna pwn Sara. :wink:


I would say that your example of Jon actually supports my contention that things you've learned (knowledge/skill) are as important as your natural abilities (talent). Jon used what he had learned about the time ninjas to take down Sara and set up Warrel in one move. What makes Jon special is that he can think that fast in combat -- that's a talent, honed by experience. I'll chalk being able to make the shots in two different directions up to a combination of talent and years of practice.


To use a real-world example, if talent trumpted skill/knowledge, rookies wouldn't have such an adjustment to go through when they enter the big league pro ranks. In some sports, it can take years in the minor leagues before a player is ready for the big show. Why? Because they have a lot to learn.


Training and knowledge are important only if you have the talent in the first place. You can take someone average, give them enough training, and they'll become good. Take someone talented in an area, train them, and they'll take that training and do something with it, make it better, they do stuff that do one's seen before, they're a fucking genius at it. Without that, you have also-rans making hay in the minor-leagues, foot-sloggers for the majors.

I draw and I'm good at it. I'm that sure I'm good at it I'm about to quit my full-time job, my career, go abroad and work out what I want to do with it. Now, I'm 47, and I only started life-drawing about 1.5 yrs ago. So, I've taken some classes, had some training, but nothing big. I've not studied art as a degree. And yet I am confident that I will do something in that area.

I also write, but I have nowhere near the same amount of confidence in my writing; I've trained myself to become good in that area. I learnt French in order to improve my understanding of language in order to improve my poetry. Read Pound, Eliot, Valery etc. And still I am no more than a foot-slogger for the majors. For me, there's a step-difference between the two modes.

ah well, this is my last post on the subject, as I appear to be trying to explain a Bear's problems to a Shark :-D

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2007 12:34 pm 
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There has always been an argument when it come to defining "talent", and this is one of them. For a circular example; Talent is the talent of integrating everything you've learned, experienced, and figured out, into a single move that is perfect for the situation. This is what Jon did in the temple. Some people can do this for normal art and others can do this for martial arts. Yet, others can do this for competitive athletics. It doesn't matter, talent will make use of whatever is available and nearly always use it for optimal results.

Those without talent cannot do this.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2007 6:38 pm 
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ri[[3r wrote:
ah well, this is my last post on the subject, as I appear to be trying to explain a Bear's problems to a Shark :-D


I don't remember the name for the logical fallacy of "If you don't agree with me, that means you just don't understand."

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2007 11:08 pm 
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Killjoy wrote:
ri[[3r wrote:
ah well, this is my last post on the subject, as I appear to be trying to explain a Bear's problems to a Shark :-D


I don't remember the name for the logical fallacy of "If you don't agree with me, that means you just don't understand."


It may not be codified, but I do run into it a lot.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2007 12:09 am 
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BloodHenge wrote:
Killjoy wrote:
ri[[3r wrote:
ah well, this is my last post on the subject, as I appear to be trying to explain a Bear's problems to a Shark :-D


I don't remember the name for the logical fallacy of "If you don't agree with me, that means you just don't understand."


It may not be codified, but I do run into it a lot.


Maybe I should have said, we will never come to a consensus over this, so I might as well stop trying.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2007 3:07 am 
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ri[[3r wrote:
BloodHenge wrote:
Killjoy wrote:
ri[[3r wrote:
ah well, this is my last post on the subject, as I appear to be trying to explain a Bear's problems to a Shark :-D


I don't remember the name for the logical fallacy of "If you don't agree with me, that means you just don't understand."


It may not be codified, but I do run into it a lot.


Maybe I should have said, we will never come to a consensus over this, so I might as well stop trying.


Perhaps I should've elaborated... I meant that I run into a lot of idiots who are completely wrong but refuse to believe it, no matter how carefully I explain their mistakes.

Not that this story necessarily has anything to do with the current situation...


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2007 3:20 am 
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Killjoy wrote:
ri[[3r wrote:
ah well, this is my last post on the subject, as I appear to be trying to explain a Bear's problems to a Shark :-D


I don't remember the name for the logical fallacy of "If you don't agree with me, that means you just don't understand."


That is itself a fallacy. It simply meant that the two opponents are lacking common referents and therefore cannot communicate any further. It is sometimes also used to gracefully bow out of a debate that one doesn't want any parts of.

In either of those cases, the honorable thing to do is to accept the statement at face value and stand down. Otherwise, one looks like an ass. Persistent pursuit, at that point, isn't cool.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2007 9:01 am 
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Slamlander wrote:
Killjoy wrote:
ri[[3r wrote:
ah well, this is my last post on the subject, as I appear to be trying to explain a Bear's problems to a Shark :-D


I don't remember the name for the logical fallacy of "If you don't agree with me, that means you just don't understand."


That is itself a fallacy. It simply meant that the two opponents are lacking common referents and therefore cannot communicate any further. It is sometimes also used to gracefully bow out of a debate that one doesn't want any parts of.

In either of those cases, the honorable thing to do is to accept the statement at face value and stand down. Otherwise, one looks like an ass. Persistent pursuit, at that point, isn't cool.


I run into "you don't get it, never mind, screw you" online about 5 times more often than "let's just agree to disagree", and I misread his comment.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2007 10:25 am 
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Killjoy wrote:
I run into "you don't get it, never mind, screw you" online about 5 times more often than "let's just agree to disagree", and I misread his comment.


I've gotten into a lot of debates where the other person will state his position, "P", to which I reply "ah yes, P; but also note that Q", only to be met with "no! Not Q, P!" In other words, the person is seeing (what seems to me) a false dichotomy, and by my saying "Q" seems to think I'm disagreeing with their "P", when in fact I'm just supplementing "P" with something more. The only way I can see to end such a conversation is by noting that if the other person thinks I'm disagreeing with them (and thus, if they don't agree with me), then they must not be understanding me, because what I'm trying to say is not meant to negate what I hear them saying; at most it's merely qualifying it.

Most such people take that to be a "if you don't get it you're just too stupid to understand" and storm off. :-(

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2007 10:51 pm 
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Expecting a naunced understanding from the 'normal' internet goer is a bit much eh?


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