ZOMBIE FORUMS

It's a stinking, shambling corpse grotesquely parodying life.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2007 12:35 pm 
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Slamlander wrote:
It may have been said but in this case, it isn't pertinent. You offered a clear critique and the implied opinion that Poe's elves should conform to D&D standards, further implying that not doing so was somewhat deficient or not up to *your* standards. There were no equivocating words in your post. My post was in direct answer to the tone and implications in your post.

Errr... What? For all your talk about me being insulting, it's hard to compare to this. You are looking so hard for an insult, that you choose the most insulting interpretation of my posts, and in addition see wittiness an honest opinion intended as insults.

Did not the part about elven dickgirls give any clue that perhaps the list was not to be interpreted as a literal "checklist for D&D conformance", but rather as a humorous way of showing that, yes, they do share many traits with the common elf?

And when I say "most likely options", why would you interpret that as "must conform to D&D", rather than "we know what options we should consider first"? You chose the former why?

Slamlander wrote:
Further, your last post is along your usual lines of implied superiority and I find it extremely patronising and on the verge of being insulting. The very fine edge of insulting, in fact. I've mentioned the problems with your approach to you before, in PMs. You refused to take the hint and even replied in public. You seem to be more for aggrandising your own ego than contributing to this forum of peers.

I never replied to the PM's in public, I replied to your public post about the PM's.

Perhaps I should enunciate this to avoid further misunderstanding... I do not reply to private PM's not because I am intentionally snubbing you, but because I am here to communicate through a public channel. If you want to privately message me, I do have an email that is easily found. Only Wikipedia has more google-juice than me for this nick. YMMV

I would then be willing to make an honest attempt at deciding whether to read it or thrash it like the user-support request I keep getting.

Slamlander wrote:
Yes, you committed the crime of insulting the story and its author. Yes, we are fans. As far as I'm concerned, you can sell that shit anywhere but here.

You committed that crime. I did not. Using a strawman does not make me the culprit, but you.


Last edited by Rakshasa on Sat Apr 28, 2007 12:52 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2007 12:36 pm 
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I would hope that on a forum full of hyper-intelligent fans, dissent would be encouraged. Both in order to provide a richer and fuller experience for all fans, and to provide Poe with a broader spectrum of opinion that will give him a more grounded sense of where to improve this and future works.

That said, I'm tired of this argument. Discussion of other people's posts or personal characters, and accusations of "you insulted Poe, no YOU did" are extremely tedious for the other readers here, and don't offer anything to further a good conversation about the comic or any related subjects. Let's move on already.

For example, Jon's comment that his dad used to torture cats, while humorous, also offers the first real insight into his father's character, and it is not a pleasant one. Does anyone else get the impression that perhaps Jon is clinging to fond memories of a man whose actions belie such a rosy recollection? Maybe Jon's mom was right to be concerned that he was turning out just like his dad?

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2007 1:00 pm 
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Imp-Chan wrote:
For example, Jon's comment that his dad used to torture cats, while humorous, also offers the first real insight into his father's character, and it is not a pleasant one. Does anyone else get the impression that perhaps Jon is clinging to fond memories of a man whose actions belie such a rosy recollection? Maybe Jon's mom was right to be concerned that he was turning out just like his dad?

I thought his dad used to tell Jon about how his friends tortured cats, as some kind of warning not to do such things. Doesn't seem to be anything explicit being said about his dad being involved.

So I guess it depends on how much weight you put on the lack of "he and" in "about when he was a kid and his friend would torture cats".


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2007 1:26 pm 
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His friends tortured cats and he didn't stop them?

Sounds unpleasant to me.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2007 2:26 pm 
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I torture cats all the time. But only when they hail from a different house as my own overlords.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2007 2:44 pm 
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You know, Saras weapon, in this kind of fight seems to lose one if its main advantages, which is you can block 'stuff' with the middle. She's used it before with the trolls un-powered up to parry the attacks, but against Sarine's current weapon, she can't really block it like she could with most things.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2007 3:11 pm 
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Imp-Chan wrote:
His friends tortured cats and he didn't stop them?

Sounds unpleasant to me.

^-^'


I seem to recall that putting a cat in a bag and then setting it on fire was the height of royal entertaintment in Europe, back in the day. Jon's dad came from a more primitive culture than Jon did, what with all the forced modernization and sudden introduction of Tsuiraku.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2007 3:37 pm 
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Yes, yes, and bear-baiting wasn't really barbaric because it happened in a different cultural environment. :roll:

I call bullshit.

We've known since long before things like bear-baiting became common practice that taking pleasure in inflicting pain on the largely helpless is just plain wrong. That's part of where the archetypes of heros and villains came from, as well as being a HUGE part of our literary tradition. No matter the greater cultural significance of the time or the callings of our more primitive selves or whatever other justification you plan to serve up, it is still WRONG. It is ignoble and barbaric, and at the very least it is the individual's responsibility not to participate in such entertainments.

The question of whether or not it is also the individual's responsibility to try to prevent them is a matter of some debate, and I'm not really sure where I fall there... but I DO feel that choosing to stay as witness to such an entertainment, even without participation, makes you a very ugly sort of a person and I'm not sure I'd want to be around you or trust myself in your presence. At the very least I think it says some nasty things about Jon's dad that he passed on the stories to his kids, as I have no delusions that such stories would have been cautionary tales instead of just being "funny stories about when dad was a kid."

In other words, just because the royals did it doesn't make it any better. Being royal doesn't mean the same thing as being a good person. In fact, I'm pretty sure that in a lot of cases it lead to being the exact opposite. Just because something used to be common doesn't mean it also used to be right.

^-^'

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2007 3:41 pm 
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normalphil wrote:
Imp-Chan wrote:
His friends tortured cats and he didn't stop them?

Sounds unpleasant to me.

I seem to recall that putting a cat in a bag and then setting it on fire was the height of royal entertaintment in Europe, back in the day. Jon's dad came from a more primitive culture than Jon did, what with all the forced modernization and sudden introduction of Tsuiraku.

Actually, the "sudden introduction of Tsuiraku" sounds more painful than burning cats. Possibly that is the move Sara figures on using on Sarine?

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2007 4:22 pm 
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Boss Out of Town wrote:
ri[[3r wrote:
Boss Out of Town wrote:
ri[[3r wrote:
BTW, if Sarine tries to advance from her current position, she's going to fall over :wink:

They appear to still be in the posturing stage of the duel. Sarine's flat-footed and Sara still hasn't put up her weapon.

Did anyone who ever had to fight in combat actually use that hand-in-the-air pose? I understand that tournament fencing is about scoring points by touching the opponent. What about, say, a 19th Century army officer defending a muddy rampart and suddenly finding himself with an empty revolver, standing on a pile of bloody bodies, some of them dead, some not quite so but with their guts coming out, and being attacked by up to four screaming Waziri tribesmen armed with a selection of knives, scimitars, and spears?

yeah, I agree, in a melee (and most battle-field work was melee) things will be different *and* the fighting here is asymetric. The hand-in-the-air is a matter of balance, and is taught rigorously by most coaches; it tends to droop as fencers develop their own styles.

Just occured to me that the metaphor is more apt than I originally thought. In the 19th Century, cavalrymen, sailors, and nfantry officers would need to practice fighting with a sword in one hand and a "blasting rod" (a Colt, Webley, etc. revolver) in the other. Ambidextry could be taught, hopefully.

Object lesson from at the Battle of Omdurman, The 21st Lancers charged into a horde of Dervishes armed with spears and scims. Lt. Winston Churchill had a bad arm that day, so he rode through the melee with two loaded pistols instead of a pistol and saber. He credited his survival to that bit of misfortune.


With the 17th century rapier, a dagger was held in the other - this is at the outer limits of my knowledge - so I think a more square-on approach was taken.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2007 4:40 pm 
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Staying around whilst his dad tortured cats, doesn't make Jon a bad person, just makes him a son. If violence was normalised like that, then he'd accept it. A "good" background for someone to make it in the Gewehr where he'd have to start out as a bit of thug. I'm thinking of role-models like the Godfather or the Sopranos. You cannot be totally likeable if you're a thug and a killer. Could this be Sarine's attraction? I think they're both battle damaged, both with a series of deaths somewhere in mind. Come to think of it, they should be discussing favourite killing tactics. Well, maybe.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2007 6:12 pm 
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This was a story told to Jon as a child about his dad as a child. Jon wasn't present at the time of the bad action, he just heard about it second-hand, and according to his statement he judged it to be horrible even then.

Jon's comment now regarding the cats is, I'm sure, intended as an ironic warning to Ellis. Ellis has long since proven to be a masochist, and has certainly provoked Jon in the knowledge that he may face retaliation. Ellis is sentient, he can talk, he's indestructible, and he's able to fly and THINK about where to put his claws for best effect. Hurting Ellis is not the same thing as torturing a cat. It's more like grounding a teenager.

A regular feline has none of those advantages that Ellis has, at least not that we know of. Hurting them is like abusing a child... it's hurting the helpless who don't understand why they're being hurt. BIG difference.

-_-'

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2007 9:43 pm 
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Well, there are varying degrees of what one might call "torture". Some people shave cats. Some pick them up and throw them into puddles. Some, as you've noted, set them on fire. One is humiliating. The second is unpleasant. The third is horrific. But all of them could be described as "torture", if only in hyperbole. It's possible that Jon's father and his friends could be more adequately described as annoying cats, and Jon is exaggerating specifically to intimidate Ellis.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2007 10:49 pm 
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Imp-Chan wrote:
Yes, yes, and bear-baiting wasn't really barbaric because it happened in a different cultural environment. :roll:

I call bullshit.

We've known since long before things like bear-baiting became common practice that taking pleasure in inflicting pain on the largely helpless is just plain wrong. That's part of where the archetypes of heros and villains came from, as well as being a HUGE part of our literary tradition. No matter the greater cultural significance of the time or the callings of our more primitive selves or whatever other justification you plan to serve up, it is still WRONG. It is ignoble and barbaric, and at the very least it is the individual's responsibility not to participate in such entertainments.

The question of whether or not it is also the individual's responsibility to try to prevent them is a matter of some debate, and I'm not really sure where I fall there... but I DO feel that choosing to stay as witness to such an entertainment, even without participation, makes you a very ugly sort of a person and I'm not sure I'd want to be around you or trust myself in your presence. At the very least I think it says some nasty things about Jon's dad that he passed on the stories to his kids, as I have no delusions that such stories would have been cautionary tales instead of just being "funny stories about when dad was a kid."

In other words, just because the royals did it doesn't make it any better. Being royal doesn't mean the same thing as being a good person. In fact, I'm pretty sure that in a lot of cases it lead to being the exact opposite. Just because something used to be common doesn't mean it also used to be right.

^-^'


I think a simpler explanation is there used to be a heck of a lot less free empathy lying around, once.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2007 12:02 am 
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normalphil wrote:
I think a simpler explanation is there used to be a heck of a lot less free empathy lying around, once.


Yeah, now-a-days we just ignore wars in Africa.

MUCH more empathy these days!

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i didnt even realise i had been insulted.

But, *now* it sounds like the thread has gotten even *worse*.

And Impy you are only stirring embers now, IMO. I'm out of this thread, that much I know for certain.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2007 7:52 am 
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KurtDunn wrote:
normalphil wrote:
I think a simpler explanation is there used to be a heck of a lot less free empathy lying around, once.


Yeah, now-a-days we just ignore wars in Africa.

MUCH more empathy these days!


I've tried to articulate it to myself before without it sounding, well, trite. But I think I've got an example.

I saw this PBS show recently, nature themed. One of the segments was on this guy who's been trying to bring atention to an annual dolphin-hunt some Japanese islanders engage in. They corral the dolphins into the shallows, the tide goes out, they pick out the youngish and obviously cute ones to sell to aquariums, and bludgeon the rest to death over the course of the day, all to the screams of the waiting dolphins as they work their way up the pods to the ones they hadn't beaten to death yet.

The guy who filmed it was inconsolable, specifically citing the feeling he got placing himself in the position of a dolphin, stranded, unable to move, spending hours listening to your pod-mates methodically dying in a horrible fashion, waiting for the humans to get around to you. He was in tears, and said making sure people knew it was happening was all he could do to stop it.

The villagers didn't even try to keep him from filming it, and it seemed to me they thought his reaction was harmless insanity on his part.

These weren't monsters, they don't go home after a day of this and dash their kids' puppies against the wall; it's that everybody has a limit to where 'things I care about' extends, and obviously intelligent marine mammals is a relatively new area for that with humanity, to the point that you can see the contrast between old attitudes and new attitudes if you hop on a plane and go somewhere specific.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2007 11:39 am 
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Yes, of course there's a limit to where "things I care about" extends. Yet, at the same time, I feel that there's a distinction to be made between apathy for things you don't care about and antipathy towards them. The one allows a wrong... the other perpetrates it.

Every action is a choice. Those dolphin hunters have a choice in how they kill... quickly and efficiently, or slowly and painfully. The end is the same, either way, because they need to eat something, and no one can eat anything without it having to die in the process. Yet they have a responsibility to at least choose the quick and relatively painless method. With so many efficient means of death available to us these days, to choose any but the most quick and painless way is no longer apathy... it's a deliberate choice to be unnecessarily cruel.

It's easy to not care... there are a great many situations in which we as individuals don't have much power to make a difference, so caring accomplishes nothing but caring for the sake of being an empathetic person. It's a little different when something you know is wrong is happening right in front of you and you choose not to give a damn, though you'll notice I'm not necessarily saying it's wrong to not care. Just a different situation to not care when it's in your ability to change something than when it isn't.

^-^'

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2007 9:05 pm 
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About the guy with the film of the dolphin slaughter.
I saw that same thing and he was not just filming, he is trying to get it stopped. However he was threatened with serious bodily harm by those doing the slaughtering when they realized what was going on. I feel he did all he could in that situation. He cared enough to put the word out and try to do something about the problem, however, if he'd tried to do anything directly it is highly likely he would have been killed or at the very least they would have destroyed his films.

Perhaps Jon's father was in a similar situation with his "friend" or perhaps his dad was an asshole... either way the fact that Jon is now telling a flying cat that he no longer feels so bad about his father's friend torturing cats is slightly less relevant to the story and at most is an interesting window into his otherwise closed psyche.

I understand feeling bad about what happens in the world but there has to be a point at which people stop and put things in perspective. In this life everything that lives eventually dies. Humans are not eternal beings and I don't think we'd be very good at it if we were.

I'm currently watching my grandfather die of congestive heart failure and it's causing tons of turmoil and pain for everyone in the family, me included, but I can't help but think that he might be better off dead. Call me a religious nut, but I think he'd be much better off in heaven than slowly watching his body fall apart.

If I live to be Ninety I'll probably be just as ornery as he is and cause just as much turmoil for my family, but in the end is it all worth it. Its not like we can do anything about it, He's decided for himself that he won't go back to the hospital and he's adamant about it. I think he's making his stand and I think I can respect that. He wants to die in the house he built with his own hands... Could any of us ask for anything more?

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2007 9:10 pm 
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Gambit3le wrote:
I'm currently watching my grandfather die of congestive heart failure and it's causing tons of turmoil and pain for everyone in the family, me included, but I can't help but think that he might be better off dead. Call me a religious nut, but I think he'd be much better off in heaven than slowly watching his body fall apart.

If I live to be Ninety I'll probably be just as ornery as he is and cause just as much turmoil for my family, but in the end is it all worth it. Its not like we can do anything about it, He's decided for himself that he won't go back to the hospital and he's adamant about it. I think he's making his stand and I think I can respect that. He wants to die in the house he built with his own hands... Could any of us ask for anything more?


Would you by any chance be me from about two years ago?

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