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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2007 9:28 pm 
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Killjoy wrote:
Deadly Sin No.8 wrote:
We have no confirmation that Sarine bopped Sara on the noggin with the flat of her blade, that Sara lost her balance, or that Sara deactivated her blades for any reason other than her own. Until Poe tells us one way or another, it is all speculation and all the "hey, I'm just callin' it like I see it" is more like "hey, I'm jsut callin' it like I want to see it."


Except that in the last frame of the 6-frame fight sequence, we see Sara off balance, her feet in a suboptimal position, leaning on one hand -- a hand that's now off the weapon -- having barely avoided having her head bisected horizontally.

We can actually see, there, in the comic, several possible reasons for the unintentional deactivation of Sara's blade.

I'll go with what we can see on the page, as opposed to speculation about the character's motives. In other words, with what the author has actually shown us already.


Already answered in the other thread:

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And again, you are reading things into it that others do not necessarily see or agree with.
So I repeat: Until we get confirmation one way or the other, it is all subjective speculation.


But let me add that everyone waving around their fencing/dueling/martial-arts/comic-fight-sequence-interpretation e-penii and arguing that they can see exactly what is going on and those who disagree are wrong look pretty stupid, even if they eventually turn out to be right.

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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2007 9:46 pm 
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Killjoy wrote:
I'll go with what we can see on the page, as opposed to speculation about the character's motives. In other words, with what the author has actually shown us already.


It's been said before, but what is happening in the last panel isn't nearly as clear cut as we all want it to be. This isn't a knock against Poe's (usually excellent) art or anything, but the action in the last panel isn't very obvious, and several explanations all fit for what's happening.

Proclaiming that you alone are free from bias and see what is happening as Poe intended isn't really something I'm going to take very seriously.
That said, it doesn't really matter. As we see in today's comic, neither managed some kind of ultimate fight-winning special move or anything, so we can probably all just STFU and find something relevant to argue about.

Like why oriental-themed monks always wear baggy pants. Surely their movement is restricted compared to something more form-fitting. What happens if your pants get caught on something in the middle of a fight?

are they all closet MC Hammer fans or something?


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PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2007 2:05 am 
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Imp-Chan wrote:
This is an awful lot of discussion about the deeper meanings behind what's going on for a page Poe was considering not even doing...

^-^'


Good thing he went ahead and drew it after all, then.


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PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2007 2:27 am 
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BloodHenge wrote:
Imp-Chan wrote:
This is an awful lot of discussion about the deeper meanings behind what's going on for a page Poe was considering not even doing...

^-^'


Good thing he went ahead and drew it after all, then.


Agreed, it's actually very well done fight scene in a more 'active' sketchy look. And this isn't just about this page, it's more about the whole question of how will Sara and Sarine deal with each other that's been going on for a while now. Lots of people have their view of how things should turn out, so they are looking for clues to support their 'hopes for the future' I guess.

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PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2007 2:55 am 
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One more quesiton for the "bopped on the head" crowd, and since this is the <klonk> thread I will ask it here.

Where is Sarine's smack talk?

Let's assume, for the sake of argument, that Sarine did bop Sara on the head with the flat of her blade, hard enough to stun her.

In dueling/sparring terms, that is a clear "kill".

If keeping score, it would be Elf: 1, Human/Ensigerum: 0

Sarine is talking smack in the next comic, but not about the head-thwack. Why not? If she did indeed thump Sara, I do not think there is any way she would miss saying something about it. It is the perfect opportunity for a condescending or other superior remark (i.e. "You're not bad, but you still have so much left to learn."), or even a slight break in the action followed by squaring off again. Maybe even a lead-in to a "Why are you smiling?" type exchange.

But there is nothing. Just the continued flow of the duel punctuated by Sarine's smack talk about the Dolon.

This, IMO, is the one of the biggest reasons why I do not think that Sarine bopped Sara in the head.

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PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2007 4:19 am 
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Eccles wrote:
Like why oriental-themed monks always wear baggy pants. Surely their movement is restricted compared to something more form-fitting. What happens if your pants get caught on something in the middle of a fight?

are they all closet MC Hammer fans or something?

Oh, let me try . . .

Pants in general are a more complex, harder to create garment than non-pants. Tight pants are more time and energy expensive to make and maintain than loose pants. They are also less comfortable when made with cheaper fabrics and when dirty or sweaty. Most traditional societies don't wear pants at all. Army fatigues and working clothes tend to be loose and soft-fabric for similar reasons.

I went to a "pioneer" re-enactment near Rockford, IL last weekend. A number of very, very pale-legged (and pale-buttocked) suburbanites were wearing Amerindian breech-clouts and leather leggings instead of European style pants. Not a pretty sight, and probably made for some interesting sunburn patterns later.

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PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2007 5:51 am 
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Boss Out of Town wrote:
Pants in general are a more complex, harder to create garment than non-pants. Tight pants are more time and energy expensive to make and maintain than loose pants. They are also less comfortable when made with cheaper fabrics and when dirty or sweaty. Most traditional societies don't wear pants at all. Army fatigues and working clothes tend to be loose and soft-fabric for similar reasons.


...So, what you're saying is, it would be more sensible for Sara to wear no pants... That kind of talk is making my pants feel tight.


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PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2007 6:18 am 
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Eccles wrote:
Boss Out of Town wrote:
Pants in general are a more complex, harder to create garment than non-pants. Tight pants are more time and energy expensive to make and maintain than loose pants. They are also less comfortable when made with cheaper fabrics and when dirty or sweaty. Most traditional societies don't wear pants at all. Army fatigues and working clothes tend to be loose and soft-fabric for similar reasons.


...So, what you're saying is, it would be more sensible for Sara to wear no pants... That kind of talk is making my pants feel tight.


Boss Out of Town wrote:
A number of very, very pale-legged (and pale-buttocked) suburbanites were wearing Amerindian breech-clouts and leather leggings instead of European style pants. Not a pretty sight, and probably made for some interesting sunburn patterns later.


Yeah but I still have the image of all those pale-skins in buckskins :-o
It kinda takes away from the effect, eh? :-?

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PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2007 9:50 am 
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Deadly Sin No.8 wrote:
One more quesiton for the "bopped on the head" crowd, and since this is the <klonk> thread I will ask it here.

Where is Sarine's smack talk?

Let's assume, for the sake of argument, that Sarine did bop Sara on the head with the flat of her blade, hard enough to stun her.

In dueling/sparring terms, that is a clear "kill".

If keeping score, it would be Elf: 1, Human/Ensigerum: 0

Sarine is talking smack in the next comic, but not about the head-thwack. Why not? If she did indeed thump Sara, I do not think there is any way she would miss saying something about it. It is the perfect opportunity for a condescending or other superior remark (i.e. "You're not bad, but you still have so much left to learn."), or even a slight break in the action followed by squaring off again. Maybe even a lead-in to a "Why are you smiling?" type exchange.

But there is nothing. Just the continued flow of the duel punctuated by Sarine's smack talk about the Dolon.

This, IMO, is the one of the biggest reasons why I do not think that Sarine bopped Sara in the head.


Have we ever seen Sarine "talk smack"?

"Bopped on the head" is actually way down my list of explanations, just slightly ahead of "Sara had to have done it on purpose because we speculate that she could kill Sarine at any time if she wanted to" and "Sara did it on prupose because we specualte that she doesn't want to kill Sarine".

Frame 6 doesn't look like a flatblading occured. It looks like a near miss occured.

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PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2007 10:29 am 
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Besides, what would constitute 'talking smack' after proving you could have killed your opponent already? "Lol, you suckz0rs, I could have just killed you! N00B!"? Everything that needs to be said is already said by the very act of hitting her with the flat of her blade.

Why continue the duel then? Beause, while Sarine might not be interested in killing Sara (and we can all agree with this, since we can imagine the consecuences on her relationship with Jon), Sara could very well be trying to kill Sarine. Trying to kill a superior combatant that doesn't want to hurt you is very easy. You just need to wait until he makes a mistake. In the meantime, you can go all out and not worry about being hurt yourself.

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PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2007 2:27 pm 
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Eccles wrote:
Boss Out of Town wrote:
Pants in general are a more complex, harder to create garment than non-pants. Tight pants are more time and energy expensive to make and maintain than loose pants. They are also less comfortable when made with cheaper fabrics and when dirty or sweaty. Most traditional societies don't wear pants at all. Army fatigues and working clothes tend to be loose and soft-fabric for similar reasons.


...So, what you're saying is, it would be more sensible for Sara to wear no pants... That kind of talk is making my pants feel tight.


Maybe a loose skirt?


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PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2007 2:33 am 
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BloodHenge wrote:
Eccles wrote:
Boss Out of Town wrote:
Pants in general are a more complex, harder to create garment than non-pants. Tight pants are more time and energy expensive to make and maintain than loose pants. They are also less comfortable when made with cheaper fabrics and when dirty or sweaty. Most traditional societies don't wear pants at all. Army fatigues and working clothes tend to be loose and soft-fabric for similar reasons.


...So, what you're saying is, it would be more sensible for Sara to wear no pants... That kind of talk is making my pants feel tight.


Maybe a loose skirt?


A very short loose skirt ... and no pants?

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PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2007 1:17 pm 
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Eccles wrote:
From the Wiki entry on Durus Flamma [Wiki stuff] People are saying she was hit with the flat of the blade. If Sarine hit her with the edge Sara would look like Lucy Liu in Kill Bill.


Mmm, Kill Bill. ^_^

Heh, lightsabers was probably a bad comparison. What I meant was that if the blade vibrates fast enough to achieve a cut through another sword blade with relative ease then 'a' in f=ma could be quite large.


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PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2007 3:45 pm 
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Ged wrote:
Eccles wrote:
From the Wiki entry on Durus Flamma [Wiki stuff] People are saying she was hit with the flat of the blade. If Sarine hit her with the edge Sara would look like Lucy Liu in Kill Bill.


Mmm, Kill Bill. ^_^

Heh, lightsabers was probably a bad comparison. What I meant was that if the blade vibrates fast enough to achieve a cut through another sword blade with relative ease then 'a' in f=ma could be quite large.


The f in f=ma means shit. It's the KE in KE = 1/2 *mv^2 that matters.


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PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2007 3:53 pm 
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Force, kinetic energy, whatever you want to call it.


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PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2007 5:59 pm 
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Does the blade only vibrate in two dimensions? If so, being smacked by it would have rather little effect. The blade has almost no mass and, as such, can not be swung with much force. If, on the other hand, it vibrates in three dimensions, being winged even by the flat of the blade might be akin to getting a cranial jackhammer.

Fun. Also might slow you down a bit and make it easier for the elf to jam her fist halfway to your brain. Of punch you in the face. That works too. :-3

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PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2007 6:25 pm 
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Ged wrote:
Force, kinetic energy, whatever you want to call it.


IIRC, not the same thing.

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PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2007 7:06 pm 
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I thought momentum was the relevant quantity anyway.


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PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2007 8:40 pm 
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Doesn't matter. It all comes down to technobabble anyway.
Kneel before the flux capacitor, bitch.

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PostPosted: Sat May 05, 2007 3:04 am 
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Labrat wrote:
Does the blade only vibrate in two dimensions? If so, being smacked by it would have rather little effect.


If it only vibrated in two dimensions you'd still get some effect from the vibration since no strike would ever be perfectly at right angles to the plane of vibration.

Killjoy wrote:
Ged wrote:
Force, kinetic energy, whatever you want to call it.


IIRC, not the same thing.


f=ma refers to the force being applied to an object in order to produce a certain chance in speed and can be rewritten to find an object's mass etc.

KE = 1/2 mv^2 refers to the kinetic energy transferred when bringing an object travelling at a constant speed to a stop in its direction of travel. Likewise you can re-write to find an objects mass etc.

I chose the first equation because here:
http://forums.kyhm.com/viewtopic.php?p=309262#309262
Eccles was using it and it makes sense for us all to be on the same page.

However since f=ma can be re-written as f=m(dv/dt) and the rate of change could be taken over the length of the impact in order to calculate the force required to bring the blade to a stop in that vector and thus its kinetic energy it really didn't seem to matter that much.

We all know what we're talking about though, 'whacking force' ^_^


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