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PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2007 12:14 pm 
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Pirates didn't get diddly-poop right for iconography, we were talking about The Fountain for that.

Compared to the first movie, the naval stuff in this Pirates was a vast improvement. It wasn't RIGHT, but it was a lot closer to being believable, despite the crazy. I damn near threw something at the screen in that first movie where Jack spins the wheel and the boom swings and hits William in dead calm seas without the boat actually tacking or changing course at all. And, you know, without breaking Mr. Turner's ribs and knocking him into the ocean to drown and save us all from having to put up with the second movie.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2007 3:29 pm 
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And where the hell did that three-decker come from in the final fight scen? In order to have three decks of guns, you have have a ship two decks higher than those with one deck of guns, the size of the deck being about the height of a stooping Englishman. The Endeavour should have have been three times the size of the pirate vessels. Reminds me of playing with toy ships as a kid, and you had an ocean liner the same size as the tugboat and both the same size as the helicopter, because they were from three different toy companies.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2007 3:33 pm 
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Really I let all those details go by the wayside when...

[spoiler]A FLEET OF A HUNDRED STRONG SHIPS TURN AROUND FOR NO REASON?! "Oh, they killed our boss! I guess they win?" 'Sure, sounds good to me.'[/spoiler]

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2007 4:39 pm 
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KurtDunn wrote:
Really I let all those details go by the wayside when...

[spoiler]A FLEET OF A HUNDRED STRONG SHIPS TURN AROUND FOR NO REASON?! "Oh, they killed our boss! I guess they win?" 'Sure, sounds good to me.'[/spoiler]


[spoiler="Well, that makes sense, actually, because..."]They'd seen the Flying Dutchman take out entire groups of ships earlier in the movie, at the Company's command, and they'd heard the stories about the Pearl as well. Both those ships were SUPPOSED to be under Company control. Once they'd demonstrated that they weren't anymore by blowing the Company flagship to smithereens, all the superstitious sailors working for the Company on all those other ships had every reason to be pissing their collective pants.

Sure, the odds are good that the 100+ ships would triumph in the end, but who's going to volunteer to be on one of the ships taken out in the process? Especially since the two magic boats that apparently managed to control the weather and survive a boat-eating whirlpool also had a fleet or so of backup pirates to throw at those Company ships first![/spoiler]

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2007 7:41 pm 
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Imp-Chan wrote:
KurtDunn wrote:
Really I let all those details go by the wayside when...

[spoiler]A FLEET OF A HUNDRED STRONG SHIPS TURN AROUND FOR NO REASON?! "Oh, they killed our boss! I guess they win?" 'Sure, sounds good to me.'[/spoiler]


[spoiler="Well, that makes sense, actually, because..."]They'd seen the Flying Dutchman take out entire groups of ships earlier in the movie, at the Company's command, and they'd heard the stories about the Pearl as well. Both those ships were SUPPOSED to be under Company control. Once they'd demonstrated that they weren't anymore by blowing the Company flagship to smithereens, all the superstitious sailors working for the Company on all those other ships had every reason to be pissing their collective pants.

Sure, the odds are good that the 100+ ships would triumph in the end, but who's going to volunteer to be on one of the ships taken out in the process? Especially since the two magic boats that apparently managed to control the weather and survive a boat-eating whirlpool also had a fleet or so of backup pirates to throw at those Company ships first![/spoiler]


[spoiler]Then there should have been some exposition/explanation on those factors in the Fleet's retreat.

I did consider that too, but come on you can't let the audience fill in all the blanks to a story. Instead of having a few goofy Cpt. Jack hallucinations, they could've had a few scenes demonstrating this.

Maybe I'm just cynical, but I like to see some decent storytelling if I'm going to be keeping my ass still for Two Hours and Forty minutes.[/spoiler]

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2007 8:41 pm 
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Boss Out of Town wrote:
And where the hell did that three-decker come from in the final fight scen? In order to have three decks of guns, you have have a ship two decks higher than those with one deck of guns, the size of the deck being about the height of a stooping Englishman. The Endeavour should have have been three times the size of the pirate vessels. Reminds me of playing with toy ships as a kid, and you had an ocean liner the same size as the tugboat and both the same size as the helicopter, because they were from three different toy companies.


From the glimpse I got I'd have placed the Endeavour anywhere from a 60 to 74 gunner, with 74 being likely, for reasons of any given period ship of the line has a better than even chance of being a 74. If the Pearl is a razee it'd about work out, a 3rd-rater isn't a linear progression from a frigate size-wise anyways.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2007 4:17 am 
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Besides, it was the Death Star/Borg Cube/Something-Large-and-Impressive-from-Battlestar-Galactica of the boating world. It doesn't matter if it would float, or if it belonged in that time period, or... [spoiler]...for that matter, the fact that towards the end the entire ship appeared to be made entirely of explosive materials which slowed time down when they started to explode...[/spoiler]...what matters is that it is cool.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2007 5:50 am 
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AncientVikingMaster wrote:
Besides, it was the Death Star/Borg Cube/Something-Large-and-Impressive-from-Battlestar-Galactica of the boating world. It doesn't matter if it would float, or if it belonged in that time period, or... [spoiler]...for that matter, the fact that towards the end the entire ship appeared to be made entirely of explosive materials which slowed time down when they started to explode...[/spoiler]...what matters is that it is cool.

Yes, once certain ship did appear to be constructed from balsa and napalm when the director needed to get the scene over with in a hurry.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2007 8:14 am 
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AncientVikingMaster wrote:
...what matters is that it is cool.


The death-knell of many an otherwise interesting idea or story.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2007 9:26 am 
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Boss Out of Town wrote:
AncientVikingMaster wrote:
Besides, it was the Death Star/Borg Cube/Something-Large-and-Impressive-from-Battlestar-Galactica of the boating world. It doesn't matter if it would float, or if it belonged in that time period, or... [spoiler]...for that matter, the fact that towards the end the entire ship appeared to be made entirely of explosive materials which slowed time down when they started to explode...[/spoiler]...what matters is that it is cool.

Yes, once certain ship did appear to be constructed from balsa and napalm when the director needed to get the scene over with in a hurry.

With that many guns, surely, the ship had a fair amount of gunpowder aboard.

(Of course, with that many cannons on a ship, one wonders how the East India Trading Company ever managed to trade anything...)


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2007 7:09 pm 
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BloodHenge wrote:
(Of course, with that many cannons on a ship, one wonders how the East India Trading Company ever managed to trade anything...)


It's simple, really...

Hypothetical Conversation Activate! wrote:
EITC Rep: We'd like to establish trade relations with your colony. Here is a contract that heavily favors our interrests and puts taxes and embargos on anything and everything you might possibly import or export.

Colonist: Why would I sign this?

EITC Rep: Because if you don't, we're going to blow you up.

Colonist: (Thinking) Hmmm...

EITC Rep: Too late, our offer has expired.

The island, which was also apparently made of balsa wood and napalm, explodes in slow motion.

Colonist: (Bloody, broken, hanging onto a tiny floating remnant of one of the many balsa-wood orphanages and puppy shelters that populated the island) I'll get you for this, East India Trading Company, if it's the last thing I do!

Cthulu: (Appearing in the colonist's mind, driving him insane) "Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu Hogwarts wgah'nagl fhtagn!"


...and that's how the Bermuda Triangle was born.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2007 7:57 pm 
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BloodHenge wrote:
Boss Out of Town wrote:
AncientVikingMaster wrote:
Besides, it was the Death Star/Borg Cube/Something-Large-and-Impressive-from-Battlestar-Galactica of the boating world. It doesn't matter if it would float, or if it belonged in that time period, or... [spoiler]...for that matter, the fact that towards the end the entire ship appeared to be made entirely of explosive materials which slowed time down when they started to explode...[/spoiler]...what matters is that it is cool.

Yes, once certain ship did appear to be constructed from balsa and napalm when the director needed to get the scene over with in a hurry.

With that many guns, surely, the ship had a fair amount of gunpowder aboard.

(Of course, with that many cannons on a ship, one wonders how the East India Trading Company ever managed to trade anything...)

That type of three-gun deck design was never used in an East Indiaman. A three-decker was an actual battleship, bullt soley by European governments, and, as I noted, would have towered over any pirate vessel. No pirate vessel got anywhere near a true man-of-war if it could avoid it.

(Riffing quickly here) Usually, no private company could afford fighting ships with more than one deck of guns. An actual trading ship would not even have that, and would instead have a few cannon in topside positions. As you note, they had to use that below-decks space for cargo.

Interestingly enough, explosions that could sink a warship were quite rare in sailing men-of-war. Something to do with the distribution of the powder magazines, I imagine. Nor were they easily sunk by gunfire. An uncontrolled fire could readily destroy a frigate or battlleship, but it could burn of these vessels to the waterline before it would sink. In naval battles, most ships "lost" were taken as prizes by the winning side.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2007 8:46 pm 
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Boss Out of Town wrote:
That type of three-gun deck design was never used in an East Indiaman. A three-decker was an actual battleship, bullt soley by European governments, and, as I noted, would have towered over any pirate vessel. No pirate vessel got anywhere near a true man-of-war if it could avoid it.

(Riffing quickly here) Usually, no private company could afford fighting ships with more than one deck of guns. An actual trading ship would not even have that, and would instead have a few cannon in topside positions. As you note, they had to use that below-decks space for cargo.

Interestingly enough, explosions that could sink a warship were quite rare in sailing men-of-war. Something to do with the distribution of the powder magazines, I imagine. Nor were they easily sunk by gunfire. An uncontrolled fire could readily destroy a frigate or battlleship, but it could burn of these vessels to the waterline before it would sink. In naval battles, most ships "lost" were taken as prizes by the winning side.


Although if ever a company did exist that could, the British East India Company was it (closely followed by the Congo Free State). However even when that title meant they were running the Indian sub-continent outright as a personal fief, they never went in for that sort of thing.

I think the 'magic cannon shot' happenned to a French 2nd-rater at Trafalger, but to be fair they had frenchmen for damage control (except for the ships that had spaniards for damage control, which manages to be even worse). (And yeah, funny thing about wooden ships; wood floats).

Still even with the lead-impregnated curtains, it being the most heavily protected area on the ship, and 400-odd proffessional sailors being well drilled that it was the worst thing that could happen, it was possible for the powder-room to blow.

And the Flying Dutchman is the mythical avatar-submarine of death. If it could be done, the Flying Dutchman could do it.

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