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PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2007 6:32 am 
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Ok.. then where do we draw the line for constructs and natural things? Or is there a third category based on this kind of difference we can use? We have a term for 'things which are created by intelligences' and for 'things that weren't created by intelligences'.

A rifle is a construct, so is a golem. A tree is not a construct, and neither is a fish. Is a golem that was made by another golem a construct?


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2007 8:24 am 
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Rakshasa wrote:
Except nothing indicates that the tsuirakushitii took parts of the DNA of two or more cats and constructed Ellis's DNA. Which is on of the few ways the word "assemble" would make any sense here. Even then you'd have a hard time arguing for Ellis being a construct, rather than just genetically engineered where his DNA is 'constructed'.


Actually, it looks more like the DNA of a cat and a bat, possibly mixed with some polymorph magic. 8-)

Rakshasa wrote:
When it comes to living things, we already have a pretty firmly ingrained set of vocabulary for describing attributes. A construction by definition requires several parts of something being put together and breeding is used to describe... Breeding, where you modify the condition in the hopes that things will move in the direction you wish.


Actually, there is no discernable difference except that of the implementation mechanism.

Rakshasa wrote:
The organism reproduces by its own violation, and even though the cells construct the body as it grows, those are internal processes. I guess the important part of this is _who_ is doing the construction. When a golem is constructed, it is done by a mage. Who constructs the cat that is bred?


In Ellis' case, both. That's why Ellis is considered a 'construct'. My understanding is that all familiars are 'constructs' and a part of their construction phase includes some breeding. Getting a base critter on which you finish the construct with polymorph magic almost certainly qualifies it as a 'construct'.

Now, I'll have to find the cannonical references but the "all familiars are constructs" statement is cannon, IIRC.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2007 9:22 am 
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Slamlander wrote:
Rakshasa wrote:
When it comes to living things, we already have a pretty firmly ingrained set of vocabulary for describing attributes. A construction by definition requires several parts of something being put together and breeding is used to describe... Breeding, where you modify the condition in the hopes that things will move in the direction you wish.


Actually, there is no discernable difference except that of the implementation mechanism.


But that mechanism is, in this case, the defining difference between the two categories.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2007 9:22 am 
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Slamlander wrote:
Actually, it looks more like the DNA of a cat and a bat, possibly mixed with some polymorph magic. 8-)

It is hard to say how those bat wings (though they seem more like mini-dragon wings to me) came to be. But if it was polymorph magic, I do not agree it counts as construct, as you are changing a part of the body rather than crafting something new on to it. Also, the comments about it being due to magical radiation suggest that the creatures have been changed at a fundamental level, possibly over centuries.

Slamlander wrote:
Actually, there is no discernable difference except that of the implementation mechanism.

Which is why I'm saying we need to decide upon what we're talking about when we say "construct".

Rakshasa wrote:
The organism reproduces by its own violation, and even though the cells construct the body as it grows, those are internal processes. I guess the important part of this is _who_ is doing the construction. When a golem is constructed, it is done by a mage. Who constructs the cat that is bred?


Slamlander wrote:
In Ellis' case, both. That's why Ellis is considered a 'construct'. My understanding is that all familiars are 'constructs' and a part of their construction phase includes some breeding. Getting a base critter on which you finish the construct with polymorph magic almost certainly qualifies it as a 'construct'.

That's almost a circular argument...

As I wrote above, my idea of how the familiars come to be is perhaps slightly different. I do not see polymorph magic as part of the process. Any process the mages would put to use, would be at a more fundamental level, probably during breeding and their life; where they are exposed to magic in a similar way as radioactivity affects us, just with more interesting effects.

This process would happen over hundreds of generations... Else inbred unicorns would not be a problem, as they'd just get a fresh line of horsies and start applying magic. Them being so rare as to get inbred suggests the changes are rather unpredictable.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2007 10:35 am 
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Changing the subject of this conversation slightly, and mercilessly killing many catgirls in the process:

Ellis' wings. They're... very small. There's no way in hell that he could actually fly using those things. So, given that he does in fact fly, I think we have to conclude that it's some sort of magic. This, in turn, raises the question: can Ellis channel magic himself, in this one, particular way? (i.e. he's a "levitation adept", if you will). Or is there some sort of enchantment put on him which he's simply able to control? (Since we do see him walking, and also flying about pretty willfully; no way he's just perma-hovering and then paddling around with his wings). If it is an enchantment, does it ever need recharging?

On a related note: if Tsuiraku can build an intelligent magically flying winged cat which is <b>permanently invulnerable</b>, why can't they apply these same enchantments to people? Particularly, invulnerability? Or maybe they can, and that's how Tsuiraku kicked Veracia's ass. But if they can do that, you've got a bit of a superman problem on your hands here. Perhaps it's very magically costly to do so, and so only the very wealthy (i.e. Meji's family) can afford to get such enchantments cast; but then, you'd think that they'd cast them on people first before casting them on their pets/toys/PDAs. (Polymorphed Domestic Animals; what exactly is the function of a familiar anyway?) And even having one character like that, while not making Tsuiraku itself invulnerable - you could still blow up the MHDs (magic hover devices) and crash the whole place, killing everyone who's not invulnerable - would still be seriously unbalancing.

Then again, we've already got an incarnated goddess wandering around, so if Poe can handle that ubermensch gracefully, I'm sure he could handle Bani & co's Invulnerability Armor in the oncoming war with the Elves.

Also, IIRC, magical radiation (from meteorites) was just a part of the Tsuirakuan creation story; I don't recall it ever being mentioned as part of the creation of familiars in particular.

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Mestro wrote:
Ok.. then where do we draw the line for constructs and natural things? Or is there a third category based on this kind of difference we can use? We have a term for 'things which are created by intelligences' and for 'things that weren't created by intelligences'.

A rifle is a construct, so is a golem. A tree is not a construct, and neither is a fish. Is a golem that was made by another golem a construct?


Just as a robot that is built by another robot is still a robot.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2007 10:56 am 
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Forrest wrote:
Also, IIRC, magical radiation (from meteorites) was just a part of the Tsuirakuan creation story; I don't recall it ever being mentioned as part of the creation of familiars in particular.

link.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2007 12:20 pm 
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Ellis' invulnerability seems less of a magitechnological advancement of Tsuiraku and more like a comical plot device. Similar to the plot armor, except more direct and in a way less useful.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2007 4:32 pm 
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I'm severely disappointed that "Amraphel 2.0" isn't in the title.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2007 5:11 pm 
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Slamlander wrote:
Actually, I suspect thet Ellis is created to follow anyone with latent and untrained magic ability (most mage kids). He's following Jon, who is the only one of the bunch that gets problems from transit gate travel. Also, his sister is a time-mage and magic is congenital. Put two and two together to get 5 and a bit. The evidence is stacking up and we've drawn harder conclusions from less.


Eh, I agree with the latter bit about Sara, but you can't possibly draw anything from the fact that Ellis is following Jon around.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2007 5:54 pm 
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True, you can't draw anything from that, but you _can_ put another stone on the scale. And that scale is dipping dangerously towards innate magical abilities.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2007 6:48 pm 
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Rakshasa wrote:
Slamlander wrote:
Actually, it looks more like the DNA of a cat and a bat, possibly mixed with some polymorph magic. 8-)

It is hard to say how those bat wings (though they seem more like mini-dragon wings to me) came to be. But if it was polymorph magic, I do not agree it counts as construct, as you are changing a part of the body rather than crafting something new on to it. Also, the comments about it being due to magical radiation suggest that the creatures have been changed at a fundamental level, possibly over centuries.

Uh . . . mini-dragon wings (as they are usually drawn) are bat wings. The people who first decided to draw winged dragons had no reptilian wings to serve as models. They usually used bat wings, sometimes bird wings, and (moving east across Eurasia) occasionally used insect wings. Some Chinese dragons float, run, or swim through the air out of sheer willpower and coolness.

In addition, all land vertebrates have genetic design consisting of a spinal column with a head at one end and a tail on the other. Per this design, most organs outside the digestive track possess bilateral symmetry, with one pair of limbs in front of the body cavity and the other behind, linked to the spine and supportive tissues by a "girdle" of bones, and with each limb ending in a "foot" with five digits. Mutations that delete, distort, or merge some of these components can create viable species (that is, the critter can reproduce itself), leading to bats, dolphins, and horses. Mutations or birth defects that completely breach this pattern either never occur naturally or never reproduce.

Hence, there are no mammals with four legs and two wings (griffons), four legs and two arms (centaurs), and no species of snake with heads at either end (the amphisbaena).

The "construct" side of Ellis's species would be the deliberate addition of a set of extra limbs attached behind his shoulder girdle. Without, I note, any obvious bones or muscles to make them move. Ironically, mutating a cat to a level of intelligence that would allow it to be as much of a wise-ass as Ellis is would be more plausible than making those wings work. The wings and the voice, not the intelligence, would be the best explanation of why these familiars are expensive and rare.

Other than that, I agree that a breed of creatures fundamentally biological in nature and operating on an animal or plants nervous systems/power plant should not be described as a "construct." Sewing together a bunch of dead body parts and energizing that with a bolt of lightning and/or magical energy would be a construct. Whatever it is, it is not breathing air and processing nutrition like an animal, not without magical life-support.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2007 6:50 pm 
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Scient wrote:
Ellis' invulnerability seems less of a magitechnological advancement of Tsuiraku and more like a comical plot device. Similar to the plot armor, except more direct and in a way less useful.

One could make the point that, even if Ellis looks like a cat, matured like a cat, and eats like a cat, that doesn't mean he has the biology of a cat. He could be made of magical energy and silly putty.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2007 8:53 pm 
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Would also fit in to why Elis can't be used as an unlimited amount of food. But then again, that darn cat also mentioned that nay-sayers talk of weakening natural insticts by enchanting them to talk, so Elis did start, somewhere somehow, as a cat, or at least his mom and dad somewhere far down the line started as a pretty much normal housecat. Maybe with wings.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2007 11:30 pm 
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I don't recall them being considered constructs as part of the cannon information just a magical mutation. Personally I've always considered Ellis's flying as being along the lines of an inherent supernatural ability his species possess like the DnD Balrog's ability to summon other demons its just something they all have but there's no specific enchantment they choose to activate and if they wound up in a world with no magic they'd be unable to use it. I think Ellis's ancestors where natural cats who gradually evolved/mutated into the current type.

We know he has at least some normal biological components because he eats like any other cat. We also know he isn't completely invulnerable because at one point he complained about his wing possibly being broken and asked Meiji for a medical scan spell (If I'm right it was when he was used as a kitty melee weapon) and I know I saw blood on the wall after Jon shot him. I think its more likely that all the spells meiji blasts him with are tailored to deliver a power level he can survive but will find very nasty to be hit with.

I just don't see how a meaningful definition of construct can be applied to a living breathing creature that presumably can reproduce on its own. It may be a genetically engeneered creature that would never rise without intervention but that still seems somewhat different to the meanings of construct I've seen.

As for what good a familiar is my understanding is that it varies depending on which world/system your dealing with. In DnD for example they're to some extent an extension of the mage able to serve as a mobile spell delivery system, second set of eyes and ears or simply a sounding board for your ideas. In other systems they do nothing more than provide an introverted mage someone they can chat with who'll understand why it would be a better world if you just made a few changes to the basic human build.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2007 1:00 am 
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I don't think it is as much that he is invulnerable, but rather that he heals very fast. Kind like a leech, he would absorb the magical energy around himself.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2007 1:02 am 
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2007 2:08 am 
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Senko wrote:
I just don't see how a meaningful definition of construct can be applied to a living breathing creature that presumably can reproduce on its own. It may be a genetically engeneered creature that would never rise without intervention but that still seems somewhat different to the meanings of construct I've seen.


So.. a golem with the ability to create another golem like itself isn't a construct? If it isn't a construct, what is it?

If you make something out of other thing, isn't it a construct? Does it matter if the things it is made up of are ideas or rock or metal or flesh?


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2007 5:29 am 
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Mestro wrote:
So.. a golem with the ability to create another golem like itself isn't a construct? If it isn't a construct, what is it?

If you make something out of other thing, isn't it a construct? Does it matter if the things it is made up of are ideas or rock or metal or flesh?

No... You are failing to differentiate between a specific kind of reproduction and replication.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2007 5:39 am 
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Rakshasa wrote:
Mestro wrote:
So.. a golem with the ability to create another golem like itself isn't a construct? If it isn't a construct, what is it?

If you make something out of other thing, isn't it a construct? Does it matter if the things it is made up of are ideas or rock or metal or flesh?

No... You are failing to differentiate between a specific kind of reproduction and replication.


Then highlight this, if you will. I'm becoming mystified as to what you mean. To refocus, you are maintaining that Ellis isn't a construct, n'est pas?

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