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 Post subject: Re: 04Jun07 - before we default right to the start killing everybody plan.
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2007 2:55 pm 
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Slamlander wrote:
Is Jon a bubba or what?

I've actually seen Americans do this, both here and in the Netherlands. I cringe every time I see it. It's the American notion of what they think everyone else thinks English sounds like. Like speaking some form of bastardized pig-latin is going to make them any more understandable than simple English. It's embarrassing to see. I've even had one lady, from the South, do it to me on the streets of Amsterdam. I spoke better English than she did but I softened it to avoid embarrassing her.

The best thing to do, in a foriegn country where you do not know the language is to speak simple English, not to be confused with grade-school children's english. Just don't use English constructs above the 6th grade level and avoid colloqialisms and slang until you've heard the level of their English. The ones that hear you will figure it out or get help. But doing what Jon did, will only make you less undrestandable and embarrass you, as well.


Actually, Jon was trying to bluff that he doesn't speak the language at all, I think, and not trying to "talk simple" to make himself more understandable.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2007 3:09 pm 
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Slamlander wrote:
Kian wrote:
Alternatively, after hearing of the other city crashing, tsuirakuans dropped the half-elfs overboard.


Not too likely. Such a genocide leaves scars on the society. Just look at the US today, it is still carrying the scars of the Native American genocide or the pre-1860's slave culture. Tsuirakushiti doesn't show those sorts of scars.


Keep in mind, we're talking about a thousand years or more. Your example is less than 200 years.

Two thousand years is a lot. Think how cultures all over the world were 2000 years ago and how they are now. I mean, does the US today carry the scars of roman wars? European wars for the different thrones? The bubonic plague?

They could have covered the fact up, and later generations simply forgot about half-elfs altogether. We don't know how much Tsuirakuan society has morphed, only that they have some "elvish" feel to their structures. Granted, without wars and with an infrastructure that they couldn't play around with much, it was probably a lot more stable than western society (and appropriately, maybe an isolationist state like japan might be more adequate to model the history of tsuiraku, but I don't know much about eastern history). But that doesn't change the fact that they could have simply have forgotten all about their own origins.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2007 3:26 pm 
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<blockquote>Two thousand years is a lot.</blockquote>Yeah. I'm wondering whether Tsuiraku actually had 2000 years elapse while they were behind the barrier, or whether they were doing the Travel Forward In Time Thing. Seems hard to imagine that a single city, even one as high tech/magic as they are could survive in isolation for that long without trade or anything.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2007 4:06 pm 
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2007 4:18 pm 
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Slamlander wrote:
No, because they wouldn't have been able to maintain their 1800 year isolation that way. Remember, no one even had a hint about Tsuirakushiti until Luminosita shorted out the Elven barrier/shield. No myths, no legends, nothing. Tsuirakushiti's re-appearance was a complete surprise to everyone, elves and humans alike. This means that the cloaking field worked both ways, maintaining strict isolation. It also implies a rather tyrannical government but that's another story/issue.

The government wouldn't have had to be all that strict if the cloaking field not only prevented travel in both directions, but was also impossible to bring down short of a shock wave produced by a pokégod bringing down the Elven barrier.

Kian wrote:
Slamlander wrote:
Kian wrote:
Alternatively, after hearing of the other city crashing, tsuirakuans dropped the half-elfs overboard.


Not too likely. Such a genocide leaves scars on the society. Just look at the US today, it is still carrying the scars of the Native American genocide or the pre-1860's slave culture. Tsuirakushiti doesn't show those sorts of scars.


Keep in mind, we're talking about a thousand years or more. Your example is less than 200 years.

Two thousand years is a lot. Think how cultures all over the world were 2000 years ago and how they are now. I mean, does the US today carry the scars of roman wars? European wars for the different thrones? The bubonic plague?

How about Arabs and Jews? Chinese and Japanese? Those conflicts, as I recall, have been going on for a bit longer than two millennia.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2007 5:09 pm 
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Yeah, but only because neither side has been able to eliminate the other. If one of the sides was completly eradicated, do you think a thousand years later the side that won would remember their enemies? Or care about it?

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2007 5:35 pm 
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Slamlander wrote:
Graybeard wrote:
Slamlander wrote:
I should check to see if these facts are in the Wiki but they should be;
"Hello, I am Sarine Elle, daughter of Elven Council woman XXX. My rank is Peregrine and we are here regarding that matter in the recent missives. I ask for your discreet cooperation. These are my assistants."

It's Peregin, not Peregrine, but more substantially, where did you get the idea that Sarine is the daughter of someone on the Elven Council? She once mentioned becoming a ranger to make her <s>mot--</s>"relations" happy, but never said just what role her mother played. I'm pretty sure that Sarine is not going to out-and-out lie to these people, although it's likely that she'll be evasive. (The rest of your predicted quote is a good example of how she might do that.)


When she went back home and had it out with the Elven council. I have to cross-check of course. :wink: That's why she still had access to the Council Chamber.

BTW, I agree, it's probably because of Ellis and some sort of Familiar Control crap.


I've gone through the entire Praenubilus Astu arc, and the only reference to Sarine's mother that I can find is here. (Even in this one, it isn't completely certain that it's her mother that's being mentioned, although I can't see anything else that "my mo-- my relations" could mean.) Nothing in the chambers that I can see. If you can find it, please cite it so we can put something in the wiki.

Her continuing access to the chambers is because the elves screwed up and didn't change the locks after lo those many years -- a fairly elementary security gaffe that shows that the elves aren't as smart as they're generally made out to be.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2007 6:44 pm 
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BloodHenge wrote:
Kian wrote:
Two thousand years is a lot. Think how cultures all over the world were 2000 years ago and how they are now. I mean, does the US today carry the scars of roman wars? European wars for the different thrones? The bubonic plague?

How about Arabs and Jews? Chinese and Japanese? Those conflicts, as I recall, have been going on for a bit longer than two millenia.

As a digression, I will assert that your recollection is a bit off.

For most of their history, the Japanese and Chinese had no special rivalry. It wasn't until the Meji period in 19th Century Japan that either country had the strategic reach to be rivals. It got very intense after that.

Note that I am not saying they didn't have wars. Prior to World War I, nations going to war with each other at regular intervals was considered normal behavior. Attempts to make peace the norm in international relations made no headway until the first world war destroyed the credibility of traditional royal and aristocratic government.

This may or may not have a bearing on relations between Tsairaku and the Elves.

The Jewish-Arab conflict dates back no further than the Balfour Declaration in 1917. Jewish communities had been surviving as second-class citizens across Eurasia for 1800 years at that point, but they never had the political power needed to have a long term rivalry with anyone in all that time. The Arabs had no particular grievance with them.

By comparison, Irish-English animosity has been festering since Strongbow's invasion of Ireland in 1169. That quarrel still carries a lot of emotion for Irish-Americans.

This undoubtedly has nothing to do with the current story, other than as a emotional model for half-elven/elven prejudices.

:-? Also, I have no interest in arguing who is at fault in any of the rivalries noted.

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 Post subject: Re: 04Jun07 - before we default right to the start killing everybody plan.
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2007 7:39 pm 
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Killjoy wrote:
Actually, Jon was trying to bluff that he doesn't speak the language at all, I think, and not trying to "talk simple" to make himself more understandable.

I'm glad I'm not the only one that got this...


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 Post subject: Re: 04Jun07 - before we default right to the start killing everybody plan.
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2007 8:10 pm 
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Kest wrote:
I'm glad I'm not the only one that got this...

I thought they were just half-joking with their interpretation...


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2007 10:19 pm 
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Boss Out of Town wrote:
BloodHenge wrote:
Kian wrote:
Two thousand years is a lot. Think how cultures all over the world were 2000 years ago and how they are now. I mean, does the US today carry the scars of roman wars? European wars for the different thrones? The bubonic plague?

How about Arabs and Jews? Chinese and Japanese? Those conflicts, as I recall, have been going on for a bit longer than two millenia.

As a digression, I will assert that your recollection is a bit off.

-stuff-

:-? Also, I have no interest in arguing who is at fault in any of the rivalries noted.


To my understanding; Bloodhenge is correct. On both assertions.

On topic: If Tsuiraku went into hiding shortly before the start of the official errant war (and iirc, the fact that the floating city disappeared is what actually ignited the war) then where did the elves of the Tsuiraku go? Or were there none present at the time of construction?

I can only surmise, based on current evidence, that there were no elves around during the disappearance and as a result, that there are no half-elves (other than Meji) within Tsuiraku and that; yes, the theory of the human-halfbreed pairings ultimately homogenising the two species utterly is the most plausible explanation.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2007 10:29 pm 
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Zherical wrote:
Boss Out of Town wrote:
BloodHenge wrote:
Kian wrote:
Two thousand years is a lot. Think how cultures all over the world were 2000 years ago and how they are now. I mean, does the US today carry the scars of roman wars? European wars for the different thrones? The bubonic plague?

How about Arabs and Jews? Chinese and Japanese? Those conflicts, as I recall, have been going on for a bit longer than two millenia.

As a digression, I will assert that your recollection is a bit off.

-stuff-

:-? Also, I have no interest in arguing who is at fault in any of the rivalries noted.


To my understanding; Bloodhenge is correct. On both assertions.

On topic: If Tsuiraku went into hiding shortly before the start of the official errant war (and iirc, the fact that the floating city disappeared is what actually ignited the war) then where did the elves of the Tsuiraku go? Or were there none present at the time of construction?

I can only surmise, based on current evidence, that there were no elves around during the disappearance and as a result, that there are no half-elves (other than Meji) within Tsuiraku and that; yes, the theory of the human-halfbreed pairings ultimately homogenising the two species utterly is the most plausible explanation.


It was fairly clear that there were only human and half-elf construction crews present at the time of disappearance. Tsuiraku was a human and half-elf joint project. Elves weren't present, which indicates a potential dislike of elves by Tsuirakushiti's founders.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2007 11:38 pm 
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Graybeard wrote:
I've gone through the entire Praenubilus Astu arc, and the only reference to Sarine's mother that I can find is here. (Even in this one, it isn't completely certain that it's her mother that's being mentioned, although I can't see anything else that "my mo-- my relations" could mean.) Nothing in the chambers that I can see. If you can find it, please cite it so we can put something in the wiki.


A bit of a tangent, but it just clicked with me that Poe said somewhere recently (in the thread about Elf aging IIRC) that it's a minor faux pas in Elven culture to refer to your parents, siblings, etc as such after a few hundred years or so - I imagine it's something like a 40 year old referring to his mother as "mommy" instead of "my mother", except taken even further where even "my mother" sounds immature coming from someone thousands of years old. I've always wondered why Sarine would hesitate to reference her mother in particular; but this could just be a subtle instance of that "don't call your parents mommy and daddy once you're a grown-up" custom.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 1:07 am 
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It sounded to me more like Jon was trying to piece together what few words of the local language he knew, rather than speaking his own language in an odd way. [After all, both languages are being translated into English for us.]

Or he could just be a hick, who knows? He doesn't have a great deal of, uh, classical education, but he's certainly come across as a well-travelled street-smart cynic so far, rather than a 'dumb tourist'.

As to the immigration officials - I should imagine that they can easily detect either Elves, time-magic users, or the large amount of weapons they carry about. I imagine Sarine is going to go for the: "I am a visiting Elven official and these are my bodyguards" approach. Since she didn't bother, as usual, to share her thoughts beforehand, she has to belatedly tell Sara not to panic at the prospect of discovery.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 1:40 am 
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Graybeard wrote:
Slamlander wrote:
Graybeard wrote:
Slamlander wrote:
I should check to see if these facts are in the Wiki but they should be;
"Hello, I am Sarine Elle, daughter of Elven Council woman XXX. My rank is Peregrine and we are here regarding that matter in the recent missives. I ask for your discreet cooperation. These are my assistants."

It's Peregin, not Peregrine, but more substantially, where did you get the idea that Sarine is the daughter of someone on the Elven Council? She once mentioned becoming a ranger to make her <s>mot--</s>"relations" happy, but never said just what role her mother played. I'm pretty sure that Sarine is not going to out-and-out lie to these people, although it's likely that she'll be evasive. (The rest of your predicted quote is a good example of how she might do that.)


When she went back home and had it out with the Elven council. I have to cross-check of course. :wink: That's why she still had access to the Council Chamber.

BTW, I agree, it's probably because of Ellis and some sort of Familiar Control crap.


I've gone through the entire Praenubilus Astu arc, and the only reference to Sarine's mother that I can find is here. (Even in this one, it isn't completely certain that it's her mother that's being mentioned, although I can't see anything else that "my mo-- my relations" could mean.) Nothing in the chambers that I can see. If you can find it, please cite it so we can put something in the wiki.

Her continuing access to the chambers is because the elves screwed up and didn't change the locks after lo those many years -- a fairly elementary security gaffe that shows that the elves aren't as smart as they're generally made out to be.


I'll drop the assertion then :-( because I can't find it either although I remember the tid-bit. Maybe it was in a Poe Note or a Forum speculation? Who knows and thus far, it is unsupported. Why you're the Abbot, non?

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 2:22 am 
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wrog wrote:
<blockquote>Two thousand years is a lot.</blockquote>Yeah. I'm wondering whether Tsuiraku actually had 2000 years elapse while they were behind the barrier, or whether they were doing the Travel Forward In Time Thing. Seems hard to imagine that a single city, even one as high tech/magic as they are could survive in isolation for that long without trade or anything.


Considering that they developed an entire unique civilization and culture along with concurrent mage-tech, 1800 years is barely enough.

If the city is large enough and the encapsulated cultures varied enough at start, it is certainly conceiveable. They certainly didn't stagnate and they did complete and expand their city, developing many new mage technologies along the way.

1800 years is roughly 54 human generations (~3 generations per century). In that time they also expanded their population from a few tens of thousands to fully saturate their city. It had to have started as a large base for that to happen (more than a few miles in diameter). They also needed the mage-tech to help feed the burgeoning population as it grew. The initial population were also all mages and their dependents, both half-elf and human.

Ergo, I doubt they travelled forward in time.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 6:07 am 
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Forrest wrote:
A bit of a tangent, but it just clicked with me that Poe said somewhere recently (in the thread about Elf aging IIRC) that it's a minor faux pas in Elven culture to refer to your parents, siblings, etc as such after a few hundred years or so - I imagine it's something like a 40 year old referring to his mother as "mommy" instead of "my mother", except taken even further where even "my mother" sounds immature coming from someone thousands of years old. I've always wondered why Sarine would hesitate to reference her mother in particular; but this could just be a subtle instance of that "don't call your parents mommy and daddy once you're a grown-up" custom.

The Poe statement is here. (Again, no reference to Sarine's mother being on the Council, etc.)

Incidentally, this bears on the parallel sub-thread about the persistence of racial/ethnic animosities. In certain regards, it doesn't matter how many years have passed since the event that caused the animosity, as much as the number of generations matters. We don't know for sure how long a "generation" in Tsuiraku lasts, but it's probably more than the 25-30 years that has been characteristic of humans in real life, for several reasons. One, they have reliable contraception (as long as the user isn't too drunk to cast it...), and real-world experience shows that that tends to cause childbearing to occur at a later age. Two, they're fairly prosperous, with the same effect. Three, having discovered magical rejuvenation, they probably remain fertile later in life, same effect. Finally, at least at their founding, they probably had a small leavening of half elves (and it's an interesting question where they all went), whose generation time is much longer, to the extent that the concept exists at all -- there's not much doubt that FAR too few generations have passed in Santuariel, for example, for racial hatred to have subsided.

There is also the point that even if lots of generations in Tsuiraku have passed since the problem with the elves, not even one elven generation has passed (and now we tie back in to the elven-generation thread), and the Tsuirakuans know it. One elven ambassador every 20 years is enough to keep the agelessness of the elves in front of the Tsuirakuans, when you consider that that ambassador is going to be the same one that your father, grandfather, etc., dealt with, with zero signs of aging as the human generations pass.

All told, for Tsuirakuans to have a long-standing bias in their dealings with elves doesn't seem odd at all to me.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 6:54 am 
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Why I felt compelled to search for 3 hours through the archives looking for this (and one other page I'm YET to find.. *sigh*) I don't know.

http://www.errantstory.com/archive.php?date=2003-08-27

Pretty sure someone mentioned this earlier in the thread.. was it me?


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 7:49 am 
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Zherical wrote:
Why I felt compelled to search for 3 hours through the archives looking for this (and one other page I'm YET to find.. *sigh*) I don't know.

http://www.errantstory.com/archive.php?date=2003-08-27

Pretty sure someone mentioned this earlier in the thread.. was it me?


It does have bearing on some of the current discussion, vis-a-vis creation myths. In particular Tsuirakuan culture, which appears to be quite secular and at odds with the Elven Religion. Antithetical, in fact, to the point of ignoring Dwarves and claiming a pre-elfen human civilization, rather than accepting Elven doctrine regarding dwarves. Yes, they had to know about dwarves from the elves.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 9:13 am 
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illukar wrote:
It sounded to me more like Jon was trying to piece together what few words of the local language he knew, rather than speaking his own language in an odd way. [After all, both languages are being translated into English for us.]


I didn't see anything to indicate that. All I saw was Jon trying (poorly) to play "dumb foreigner who doesn't speak the language".

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