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PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 12:05 am 
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Sooo everyone in Tsuiraku is an agnostic/atheist? and I note no one's interested in my other points. :-(


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 12:54 am 
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Senko wrote:
Sooo everyone in Tsuiraku is an agnostic/atheist?


To a certain extent, the whole lot of them are. The Veracian priesthood knows that Luminosita's a fake God. It takes a pretty strong atheist to pull that scam, never mind that they're a priest. The Elves know the real Gods as entities that may have abandoned them. Tsuirakuans are not quite sure how much of what the Elves tell them is true and might even chalk some of it up to meaningless fable, instead of first-person memory.

Senko wrote:
and I note no one's interested in my other points. :-(


What other points?

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 5:43 am 
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Graybeard wrote:
It's not use of time magic and necromancy that's banned, just research. There is a difference. Keep in mind that Sashi Mu doesn't seem to have any problems with students building golems, which also involve necromancy, but presumably don't do anything new and fancy.

No... We know _research_ is banned, but we don't know if use is allowed or not. Yet, it should be obvious that if research is banned, then use would also be. In a way, there's a lot of stuff that is banned from use, but allowed for research, but not the other way around.

What she wanted to make a project about imo, was showing that research into those fields would be possible without triggering any of the reasons for why they are banned from use.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 5:56 am 
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Rakshasa wrote:
Graybeard wrote:
It's not use of time magic and necromancy that's banned, just research. There is a difference. Keep in mind that Sashi Mu doesn't seem to have any problems with students building golems, which also involve necromancy, but presumably don't do anything new and fancy.

No... We know _research_ is banned, but we don't know if use is allowed or not. Yet, it should be obvious that if research is banned, then use would also be. In a way, there's a lot of stuff that is banned from use, but allowed for research, but not the other way around.

What she wanted to make a project about imo, was showing that research into those fields would be possible without triggering any of the reasons for why they are banned from use.


The Necromancy issue was because of the guy that tried to resurrect his long-dead wife. It caused a not so small row with Veracia because Luminosita was where he stole the energy from, dying himself, in the process. Research was banned after that due to it being too dangerous for the percieved benefit. I believe that the same is true for time magic, it's dangerous, too dangerous for a floating city. But in both cases, this is only valid for Tsuiraku. None of the others give a damn.

Obvously, time magic is allowed in Veracia, that's where the time-monks live.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 6:26 am 
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Well for example my pointing out the mage wasn't actually saying that they had done something wrong. Look at his first sentence "Sir something was amiss with the..." then he notices Sarine but it looks like something went wrong elsewhere rather than his noticing something odd about this group. "Something went wrong with the rematerialization" for example after all we know they have a small chance of causing sterility.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 6:34 am 
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Rakshasa wrote:
Graybeard wrote:
It's not use of time magic and necromancy that's banned, just research. There is a difference. Keep in mind that Sashi Mu doesn't seem to have any problems with students building golems, which also involve necromancy, but presumably don't do anything new and fancy.

No... We know _research_ is banned, but we don't know if use is allowed or not. Yet, it should be obvious that if research is banned, then use would also be. In a way, there's a lot of stuff that is banned from use, but allowed for research, but not the other way around.


Not at all. There have been various things historically that reached some point of maturity, then were frozen in time with no further research. The classic example relevant to time magic and necromancy is Greek fire. There are a goodly number of other examples from the world of agriculture, and they tend to correlate rather strongly with bad things happening to the nation that stops the research. Jared Diamond's book "Collapse" (an extremely good, thought-provoking read) goes into this in some depth, and in it there is a lesson for our times.

Actually, we do know that necromancy is allowed in Tsuiraku, at least on a restricted basis. Professor Yukiri didn't object when Kenji Hidomi said his class project was to build a working golem. If people are correct in speculating that the large, immobile humanoid figures seen in warp gates are golems (and I must admit that I'm not convinced that they're not just statues), it's more proof to the contrary. Another thing commonly seen: when a thing stops being socially allowed as a "research" topic, the use of that thing does not disappear, but simply comes to be monopolized by the government that has prohibited the research. Greek fire is again the classic example.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 7:14 am 
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Graybeard wrote:
Actually, we do know that necromancy is allowed in Tsuiraku, at least on a restricted basis. Professor Yukiri didn't object when Kenji Hidomi said his class project was to build a working golem. If people are correct in speculating that the large, immobile humanoid figures seen in warp gates are golems (and I must admit that I'm not convinced that they're not just statues), it's more proof to the contrary.

You obviously do not know the meaning of the word necromancy. Not even flesh golems are created through necromancy, the components just happen to be flesh. So that points fails completely.

Graybeard wrote:
Another thing commonly seen: when a thing stops being socially allowed as a "research" topic, the use of that thing does not disappear, but simply comes to be monopolized by the government that has prohibited the research. Greek fire is again the classic example.

There are several different kinds of prohibitions. What you are describing is the one where the government wants to keep control of a technology. A civilization like Tsuiraku would not be very likely to stop research into that field, only to keep it tightly controlled. The projects aim did not seem to indicate this was the case.

And the ban on research here is more likely the kind where any use of the magic must be avoided, so much so that even research must be disallowed in order to avoid any chance of people learning to use it. There may of course be some residual techniques floating around, being used in harmless enchantments or by emo girls late at night during their slumber party / orgie.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 7:25 am 
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Graybeard wrote:
Actually, we do know that necromancy is allowed in Tsuiraku, at least on a restricted basis. Professor Yukiri didn't object when Kenji Hidomi said his class project was to build a working golem. If people are correct in speculating that the large, immobile humanoid figures seen in warp gates are golems (and I must admit that I'm not convinced that they're not just statues), it's more proof to the contrary.


Maybe I missed the answer the first time, but I ask again...

Golem-making is necromancy?

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 8:16 am 
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Rakshasa wrote:
Graybeard wrote:
Actually, we do know that necromancy is allowed in Tsuiraku, at least on a restricted basis. Professor Yukiri didn't object when Kenji Hidomi said his class project was to build a working golem. If people are correct in speculating that the large, immobile humanoid figures seen in warp gates are golems (and I must admit that I'm not convinced that they're not just statues), it's more proof to the contrary.

You obviously do not know the meaning of the word necromancy. Not even flesh golems are created through necromancy, the components just happen to be flesh. So that points fails completely.

Graybeard wrote:
Another thing commonly seen: when a thing stops being socially allowed as a "research" topic, the use of that thing does not disappear, but simply comes to be monopolized by the government that has prohibited the research. Greek fire is again the classic example.

There are several different kinds of prohibitions. What you are describing is the one where the government wants to keep control of a technology. A civilization like Tsuiraku would not be very likely to stop research into that field, only to keep it tightly controlled. The projects aim did not seem to indicate this was the case.

And the ban on research here is more likely the kind where any use of the magic must be avoided, so much so that even research must be disallowed in order to avoid any chance of people learning to use it. There may of course be some residual techniques floating around, being used in harmless enchantments or by emo girls late at night during their slumber party / orgie.



In your speculation, you are making a grievous error. The context is this story's universe where even the humans cannot be assumed to be quite the same as us or operate on the same principles. Your generalization wrt the research ban does not apply, I think.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 9:20 am 
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Killjoy wrote:
Graybeard wrote:
Actually, we do know that necromancy is allowed in Tsuiraku, at least on a restricted basis. Professor Yukiri didn't object when Kenji Hidomi said his class project was to build a working golem. If people are correct in speculating that the large, immobile humanoid figures seen in warp gates are golems (and I must admit that I'm not convinced that they're not just statues), it's more proof to the contrary.


Maybe I missed the answer the first time, but I ask again...

Golem-making is necromancy?

Only if you want to use necromancy to make a golem out of deceased humans. Victor Frankenstein did not do this, he used electrochemical principles. In theory, you could use a necromancy-revived human spirit, brain, or heart as the focus of some other kind of construct, but most universes take a more robotic approach to the topic.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 11:16 am 
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Senko wrote:
anyway on going back to the strip (to see if a new one was up) I just realized something the priest wasn't saying "There is a problem" he was saying "There was a problem with" a very different meaning I wonder if one of the group just had the .3% chance of sterility occur to them?

Standard procedure for approaching potentially hostile travelers: Approach the issue indirectly.

If you've watched customs operate, you'll notice that they generally start by asking the person next to the real target some questions. This would be another one of those techniques built up through thousands of years.

Slamlander wrote:
In your speculation, you are making a grievous error. The context is this story's universe where even the humans cannot be assumed to be quite the same as us or operate on the same principles. Your generalization wrt the research ban does not apply, I think.

It applies no more and no less than the Greek fire example.

So we know research is banned. Elven rangers did not know about time magic being used, even though they travel all over the world, even Tsuirakushiti (the ambassador). Thus we should be able to assume its current use is a secret known only by those who have been in close contact with it. There is only one case of necromancy in newer history that we know of, and that was generally frowned upon it seems.

Much to indicate there's a general ban on using, in addition to researching, and no evidence that it is allowed. Even if you could show that there wasn't a ban, a ban on research would result in a defacto ban on use.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 12:02 pm 
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Rakshasa wrote:
If you've watched customs operate, you'll notice that they generally start by asking the person next to the real target some questions. This would be another one of those techniques built up through thousands of years.


I'll grant you that, except for one minor detail. Tsuiraku has only existed for two centuries. Before that, Tsuirakushiti didn't have a customs office. Rather, the people in it were very lonely. They didn't have thousands of years. However, it's a very minor gnit and you don't need that long for those sorts of tactics to be developed. A decade would do it. :-3 :wink:

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 1:17 pm 
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Okay, so, necromancy. Maybe someone should define what the term actually means? Because I've always used the term for any magic that instills life in something without it. Golems count, in this respect. It doesn't have to have been alive at one point: just made alive, in a sense, now.

Although in a very technical sense, none of this is necromancy since the word actually refers specificaly to divination through the dead. But that doesn't really apply here, because I <i>seriously</i> doubt that's what Poe is using the term for.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 1:40 pm 
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If you know the difference between inanimate and dead, you know the fundamental difference between constructing a golem and necromancy.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 1:50 pm 
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In fantasy settings, golems are not considered to be alive, but rather, animated. They're like magical robots, able to do simple functions and follow commands, but don't have actual minds or the like.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 1:57 pm 
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Necromancy, in short (with a lot of wholes in the definition), is the manipulation of the dead (zombies, spirits, skeletons, shadows), usually to the means of creating servants or to gather information.

Maybe you guys can build on that.

Here is merriam webster's definition: conjuration of the spirits of the dead for purposes of magically revealing the future or influencing the course of events

Although there is more to it than that.

But the main difference between making a golem and creating a skeleton or zombie would be, imo, the type of energy used to create them. Skeletons you merely awaken (albeit with a lot lower instincts and brain power), while a golem is a construct that you create and shape.

I dunno, I guess I'm jsut ranting at this point.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 2:01 pm 
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Kian wrote:
In fantasy settings, golems are not considered to be alive, but rather, animated. They're like magical robots, able to do simple functions and follow commands, but don't have actual minds or the like.


I dunno, Pratchett's Golems have a union and everything. One of them is even a copper and works for Vimes. :wink: Not that it has any relevence to this universe 8-)

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 3:31 pm 
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Labrat wrote:
Oh... and I lost all respect for Poe and Impy with their use of the word 'fantabulous'.
Just thought you all should know.

Impy is the exact sort of person I think should be using the word "fantabulous", and if Poe is smart (as I'm sure we all agree he is), he'll use it too if she wants him to.

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Theros wrote:
Oh god damn it the names are RIGHT IN THE COMIC AND/OR WIKI. ARGH.

Give it up - at this point Senko is either slow, spiteful, or foreign.

In my experience, foreigners tend toward better grammar than native speakers (a fact that occasionally causes me to weep quietly in the middle of the night).

Senko wrote:
Actually I'm just awful at languages (and anything to do with forumula's like engineering or chemistry)

So... What are you good at, music?

Slamlander wrote:
Obvously, time magic is allowed in Veracia, that's where the time-monks live.

Unless the Ensigerium operates outside the law.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 4:51 pm 
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On a slightly different tangent: Wonder if Misa will be among the entourage that comes with the ambassador?

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 5:03 pm 
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BloodHenge wrote:
Impy is the exact sort of person I think should be using the word "fantabulous", and if Poe is smart (as I'm sure we all agree he is), he'll use it too if she wants him to.

Such is the nature of the female vagina.
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Graybeard wrote:
On a slightly different tangent: Wonder if Misa will be among the entourage that comes with the ambassador?

Probably. The elven council will probably send her with the bastard just to make sure he has a source for nookie outside of the local humans and other livestock.

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