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PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2007 7:10 pm 
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actor_au wrote:
Doctor Who defined Science Fiction better than Star Trek.

Actor.

Which doesn't change the basic cultural history of our times. I happen to like Dr. Who and Outer Limits better, and Star Trek: the Next Desecration often gives me the screaming twitches, but Star Trek made science fiction an adult topic on television and still sets the standard after forty years.

I can understand people having differing opinions on this subject. I was stupified to find, when the new Battlestar Galactica came out, that there were people out there who complained about the remake because they thought that the shallow, brain-damaged rip-off original series was great drama.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2007 7:13 pm 
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Boss Out of Town wrote:
I can understand people having differing opinions on this subject. I was stupified to find, when the new Battlestar Galactica came out, that there were people out there who complained about the remake because they thought that the shallow, brain-damaged rip-off original series was great drama.


Helps if you came into it by watching "33". Now that was a well-earned Hugo.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2007 8:49 pm 
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You guys got it all Wrong.

Buck Rodgers in the 26th (or whichever once, who cares) Century was better!

The Show that stated that the All American Hero of Today would be a badass no matter WHERE he was!

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2007 9:26 pm 
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I like how no one argues against Lord of the Rings defining fantasy, despite the fact that there was fantasy before it. Heck, Volsunga Saga was fantasy!

Star Trek is what we've come to think of as sci-fi. The problem with this is that people don't seem to like worlds set entirely in the future, where everything is not-as-we-know-it. Apparently, it gets difficult to understand, which is why X-Files and Stargate lasted so long as sci-fis. They did not follow the road that Gene Roddenberry paved. In time, these will probably have a sub-genre named after them. I never watched Dr. Who much, but, IIRC, it would be included in this. Buck Rogers might as well, because of the fact that Buck Rogers was from our time.

What I'm curious to learn is what the future will think of shows like Farscape. A sci-fi, MOSTLY. It had many fantasy elements in it (moreso even than Star Wars, perhaps). The sets and costumes even seem to scream that it is not sci-fi, but rather a dark fantasy.

Anyway, thanks Boss. It seems that I sometimes cannot get the point I am trying to get at across. Speaking of BSG, I was really surprised to learn that Starbucks got a gender re-orientation surgery.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2007 10:04 pm 
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normalphil wrote:
Boss Out of Town wrote:
I can understand people having differing opinions on this subject. I was stupified to find, when the new Battlestar Galactica came out, that there were people out there who complained about the remake because they thought that the shallow, brain-damaged rip-off original series was great drama.

Helps if you came into it by watching "33". Now that was a well-earned Hugo.

Naked Gun 33!/3?

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2007 10:51 pm 
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KurtDunn wrote:
The Show that stated that the All American Hero of Today would be a badass no matter WHERE he was!


There is a cryogenics complex in Arizona that, for a price, will let true-believers attempt to prove this on their own.









I am of course going for the "head-only" option.
Why waste money on full-body storage when I will want a new one anyway...?

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 12:19 am 
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I don't know... I mean, going head-only is kinda like having a webpage on geocities. If I'm going to be makin' time with alien babes in the year 3000, I think I'd like to be all there.

Because what if they thaw you out and say "Oh, yes, you can lead a perfectly normal and healthy life now... as long as you don't mind just being a head attached to a life support machine the size of an air conditioner. See... I'm afraid your HMO doesn't cover full body replacements, but this discount model is available... and hey, it won't even cost you an arm and a leg!"

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 1:21 am 
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PsionicsNOTMagic wrote:
I like how no one argues against Lord of the Rings defining fantasy, despite the fact that there was fantasy before it. Heck, Volsunga Saga was fantasy!


I didn't mention it because, frankly, I overlooked it. But in reality the first known fantasy was Gilgamesh, from ancient Sumer, and let's not forget Beowulf. No, Tolkien didn't define fantasy either. In fact, he took more of a SciFi approach to it and borrowed heavily from existing mythology, like any good author will.

PsionicsNOTMagic wrote:
Star Trek is what we've come to think of as sci-fi. The problem with this is that people don't seem to like worlds set entirely in the future, where everything is not-as-we-know-it. Apparently, it gets difficult to understand, which is why X-Files and Stargate lasted so long as sci-fis.


Stargate is good because it is well written and directed, like Star Trek. They aren't difficult to understand, it's just that they have trouble finding directors and writers that won't get campy with it, like Whedon (idiot). Firefly was entertaining but it certainly wasn't good SciFi. Farscape was much better but they occasionally got silly with that too.

PsionicsNOTMagic wrote:
They did not follow the road that Gene Roddenberry paved. In time, these will probably have a sub-genre named after them. I never watched Dr. Who much, but, IIRC, it would be included in this. Buck Rogers might as well, because of the fact that Buck Rogers was from our time.


Actually, absolute not! Roddenberry followed the road paved by legendary authors like EE "Doc" Smith (The Skylark series and the Lensmen series) and a host of others, mostly Golden Age stuff. There already is a sub-genre and it's called :scream: Space Opera!

Roddenberry my be the first real SciFi author that you've run across, but he was nowhere near the first or even in the top ten. BTW, that you can't tell the difference between camp and real Space Opera, says something.

PsionicsNOTMagic wrote:
What I'm curious to learn is what the future will think of shows like Farscape. A sci-fi, MOSTLY. It had many fantasy elements in it (moreso even than Star Wars, perhaps). The sets and costumes even seem to scream that it is not sci-fi, but rather a dark fantasy.

Anyway, thanks Boss. It seems that I sometimes cannot get the point I am trying to get at across. Speaking of BSG, I was really surprised to learn that Starbucks got a gender re-orientation surgery.


Define fantasy elements and I might let you get away with that one. I write speculative fiction, nee SciFi, and merge it with some fantasy, using SciFi rules, thus seriously blurring the boundary between SciFi and what is considered Fantasy. My friends over at Twilight Agency do the same. This is done under a modification of Clark's law:

Clark's Law wrote:
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from Magic

Corrollary to Clark's Law wrote:
Any sufficiently developed magic is indistinguishable from technology.

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Last edited by Slamlander on Mon Jun 25, 2007 2:02 am, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 1:53 am 
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Food for thought: What if one day many eons from now, Humanity gets referred to as "The Old Ones".

For any followers of Warhammer 40K, consider this alternate reality: the C'tan are transcendant beings who cursed an early Humanity. A time later, and it is decided to re-create the race to combat the Orks (the direct anti-thesis to the Necrons, effectively). Whilst not offering a good explanation, it could help bridge a few gaps when considering the C'tans decision to include Humans as operatives within their genocide.

I mean, what if we are the only intelligent life form? What if we search the galaxy for aliens, and find that there are either absolutely none, only animals, or primitive civilisations *at best*?

Considering the age of our planet, it's location, and what we're doing to it, I think my theory is highly unlikely. It's also terribly possible.

Imagine what all our science fiction would mean, if we discover that we are THE FIRST galactic race. Our science fiction, while entertaining maybe, would have about as little impact then as most modern B-grade fantasy.

I wanna live forever, just so I can find out.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 2:06 am 
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I don't know Warhammer but this cruises very close to my Arcturus Bound universe. :wink:

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At the very beginning of creating my novel universe, I considered the concept of making humans the only "real" race, with all the other intelligent species populating the universe resulting from us augmenting the genetic information of compatible life on earth with just enough human DNA to make them similar to us (bipedal, thumbs, etc) while still retaining their animal qualities.

In the proto-story, we had gone out into the universe and explored it with our mighty engines of space, only to find it a very lonely and empty place... life can and has developed on other worlds, but nothing quite like us has ever come along, not even a trace of 'civilization' as we know it can be found. Eventually, we decide to seed different worlds with life, hiring the best science fiction writers and anthropologists to give each new race a unique backstory and working culture that won't lead them to self-destruct. We even build ruins, just so they'll have a rich cultural background. And then, once running, we quietly disappear into the night, only to return in a few hundred years and present ourselves as a "sister" to their species, not as their creators.

I eventually abandoned this idea because a) while neat, it still wasn't quite what I wanted and would involve too large of a scale of time for me to work with... more importantly b) it caused my Hubrisometer to explode.

There's still some ideological trails left behind in the story, but I don't think that they're causing any conflict. The basic designs of the alien species, at least the ones native to this region galaxy, still remain the same, indicating that there might be some sort of grand consipriacy... or that it could be that's just what's on tap for this particular arm of the galaxy.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 2:51 am 
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AncientVikingMaster wrote:
There's still some ideological trails left behind in the story, but I don't think that they're causing any conflict. The basic designs of the alien species, at least the ones native to this region galaxy, still remain the same, indicating that there might be some sort of grand consipriacy... or that it could be that's just what's on tap for this particular arm of the galaxy.


^^ reminds me of something..

http://well-of-souls.com/outsider/

A space-opera sci-fi webcomic, with more backstory than actual drawn pages :D

Particularly reminding from your quote:
http://well-of-souls.com/outsider/loroi_timeline.html
Quote:
The Loroi are an ancient culture; their origins are uncertain, but date back to at least the time of the Soia, at least half a million years ago. Prior to their rediscovery of starflight, the Loroi existed in a primitive state on three separate star systems (Deinar, Perrein, & Taben), none of which were their planet of origin.


and

http://well-of-souls.com/outsider/forum_loroi.html
Quote:
It is very possible that Earth and [Deinar] were 'seeded' by the same thing; there is evidence that a Mars-rock carried over the original RNA to the earth. Of course, that would just mean that the base-pairs (right usage of term?) are the same (except perhaps 't').

That might account for similar DNA or biochemistry, but it wouldn't result in such similarity of form. Evolution doesn't work that way (despite what Star Trek: The Next Generation would have you believe). But the Loroi didn't evolve on Deinar anyway.


@Slamlander:

Corrollary to Clark's Law wrote:
Any sufficiently developed magic is indistinguishable from technology.


I think that statement is flawed. I think that it is flawed because of the very nature of magic itself. Magic is rarely ever given a definite source for the energy used within/by it. What *is* magic, anyway?

As THE MAN himself said; "God does not play dice". Now I realise slammy that your work might well explain the original source for the energy that allows magic to be used, but as a fore-warning, ideas like "mana" just aren't legit enough to give magic credibility :)

If it interests you, Warhammer allowed the use of magic (termed 'sorcery') due to the parallel dimension of "The warp". It is, in essence, a dimension created by a coellescance (sp?) of the mental energy of all life. Since we know that the brain produces measurable waves, the idea isn't completely without footing.

Additionally, out of curiousity, what do you mean by 'developed magic'? Do you mean developed in the sense of evolution; in that the magic itself has reached a point of sophistication that it could be confused for natural/artificially produced effects. OR, do you mean developed in the sense of techniques concerning it's manipulation? If so, we are not only again pointed to question what magic is (and it's source, for eg electricity uses electromagnetism, magic uses ??), but also *how* does one manipulate magic? With machines? If so, doesn't that make your magic-machines technological by very definition?

I'm looking forwards to this reply, for sure. Your idea has potential definitely.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 2:55 am 
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Zherical wrote:
the C'tan are transcendant beings who cursed an early Humanity. A time later, and it is decided to re-create the race to combat the Orks (the direct anti-thesis to the Necrons, effectively). Whilst not offering a good explanation, it could help bridge a few gaps when considering the C'tans decision to include Humans as operatives within their genocide.


*bolts for heresy*

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Zherical wrote:
A space-opera sci-fi webcomic, with more backstory than actual drawn pages :D


All half-way decent space operas always do.

As to the webcomic, I'll check it out... though from your statement, I take it that it's no longer a going concern?

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 Post subject: close enough to that setting if i remember correctly, anyways
PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 3:10 am 
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Zherical wrote:
Imagine what all our science fiction would mean, if we discover that we are THE FIRST galactic race.

The Ringworld Engineers


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 3:41 am 
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Yorik wrote:
Zherical wrote:
the C'tan are transcendant beings who cursed an early Humanity. A time later, and it is decided to re-create the race to combat the Orks (the direct anti-thesis to the Necrons, effectively). Whilst not offering a good explanation, it could help bridge a few gaps when considering the C'tans decision to include Humans as operatives within their genocide.


*bolts for heresy*


WARNING, LONG POST AHEAD, INTENDED FOR YORIK.. and anyone else who gives a shit :)

Lazy readers: skip to bottom for summary


If I could find my copy of the Warhammer 40K fluff bible, I'd quote you sections that more or less allow my idea to work. I remember distinctly reading that the Orks were once a far more superior race than they are now, both technologically and societally. I remember reading that the Orks, either by creation, evolution, or sheer force of survivals call (this is where I get blurred.. 180 pages at 45% zoom writing really kills the eyes) were in effect the direct anti-thesis to the Necrons.

THE NECRON INFO PAGE

Consider, Necrons are manipulated by the C'tan and then transmogrified into soul-less machines; they are consumate destroyers of life, but in itself, they do not reproduce. They are the most technologically advanced race (despite having suffered "extinction" 65 million years ago) and up until the current 40k era, had never assimilated another species into their design.

Along comes Orks, fallen from their golden age, they still hold the throwbacks to that era in their genetics. They reproduce like the wind, have (on the surface) low technology, ork-enesis (inherent telepathic ability, its existence wasn't explained well) and occupy some 60% or so of the entire warhammer galaxy :)

Now, consider the Humans and their connections to the Necrons. Both strived for high technology to their own detriment, both discovered a set of 'gods' that either destroy or horrifically modify them, both have had some of their number turn to serve these 'gods'. Humans and Necrons share the same number of limbs, digits, and and facial structure. Eldar are distinctly different in that they are elongated and have a kind of.. horizontally compressed physical structure, whereas Humans and Necrons share a kind of "heavily muscled on small bone structure" appearance. Imagine a necron lord in a living state, covered in muscles and skin, he wouldn't look much at all different from a Human.

Next comes the existance of Pariahs. Oooh boy.

Pariahs
Quote:
Crafted from a terrible symbiosis of Necron technology and human evolution, Pariahs represent the next phase of the C'tan's ideal for the galaxy. resembling artificial beings of soulless perfection, Pariahs radiate a sense of palpable menace and horror to those around them. Blotting out psychic emanations and infusing those nearby with the sense of their own mortality, Pariahs embody the ultimate horror of the Necron threat.


Next phase?

Does that imply that the similarities in form between Human and Necron aren't the only thing the two races share? Let's take a deeper look..

Imperial Humanity is waging a 7-way genocidal war of attrition. Necrons had their great genocide some 65 mia ago. Necrons and Humans share similar mentality.

Physically, they are almost indistinguishable.
Immortals

Immortals and pariahs are extremely similar in appearance to one another, almost to the point of confusion. The big physical difference is the amount of armour a pariah wears (including what's attached to his face), but if you took that excess armour off, do you think you would be able to tell them apart? Personally, I think a pariah without armour would look a lot like the Necron lords.

Necrons share a similar view of technology, and the necrons had extensively modified themselves mechanically, and genetically, in order to survive a dying star. Imperial Humans are exactly the same. Their Spacemarines are genetically modified super-humans, and their Adeptus Mechanicus are only superficially Human, as much of their body is now mechanical.

Quote:
They pushed the limits of science in an effort to lengthen their lives, but to no avail. Then, the star gods known as the C'tan were discovered, offering immortality at a terrible price.

The Necrontyr agreed, and their souls were encased in living metal bodies.


Quote:
The Space Marines of the Adeptus Astartes are Humanity's ultimate warriors, dedicated to the defence of the Emperor and the Imperium of Man. They are barely human at all, but superhuman, having been made superior, in all respects, to a normal man by a harsh regime of genetic modification, psycho-conditioning and rigorous training.


The best part is, is that the C'tan aren't the only Necron gods. Included are omni-presences like the Void Dragon, just to name one. The VD itself IIRC is directly responsible for the mechanical nature of the Necrons, and can at will, force any machine it desires to serve the Necron forces. That in consideration, the forces of the Adeptus Mechanicus are extremely succeptable to being controlled by the VD; that's if you didn't consider the Human portion of them NOT being in danger of modification when considering the Pariahs. The Spacemarines themselves are also fused inextricably to their armour, which renders them also vulnerable to the VD's, and by proxy, the C'tans influence.

Summary

Humans and Orks have been in a constant state of war since Humans first travelled into space. Orks and Necrons exist only to butcher each other. Humans have been turned into Necrons, and the greater part of Humanity itself is already on it's merry way to creating it's own Necron army anyway, when the above points are considered.

It's definitely possible that the C'tan made Humanity, in order to evolve them into superior Necrons, which is to say; Necrons were Human, and that Humans are becoming Necron.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 3:50 am 
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AncientVikingMaster wrote:
Zherical wrote:
A space-opera sci-fi webcomic, with more backstory than actual drawn pages :D


All half-way decent space operas always do.

As to the webcomic, I'll check it out... though from your statement, I take it that it's no longer a going concern?


The comic has been on 'temporary hiatus' for almost a year. That being said, the project was started in 1999.. so.. whether a year's inactivity actually means anything, I don't know. I found it circa october 2006, I've not known about it long enough to really say one way or another.

If you open the forums, and change the thread date settings to allow viewing for a couple of months, you'll see that it can be VERY active in there, despite the actual comics lack of updating.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 4:26 am 
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Zherical wrote:
Yorik wrote:
Zherical wrote:
the C'tan are transcendant beings who cursed an early Humanity. A time later, and it is decided to re-create the race to combat the Orks (the direct anti-thesis to the Necrons, effectively). Whilst not offering a good explanation, it could help bridge a few gaps when considering the C'tans decision to include Humans as operatives within their genocide.


*bolts for heresy*


snip


It doesn't matter how likely it is, it's still heresy. *bolts again*

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Yes, it's heresy. It's damn good heresy ;)


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 5:18 am 
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Zherical wrote:
@Slamlander:

Corrollary to Clark's Law wrote:
Any sufficiently developed magic is indistinguishable from technology.


I think that statement is flawed. I think that it is flawed because of the very nature of magic itself. Magic is rarely ever given a definite source for the energy used within/by it. What *is* magic, anyway?

As THE MAN himself said; "God does not play dice". Now I realise slammy that your work might well explain the original source for the energy that allows magic to be used, but as a fore-warning, ideas like "mana" just aren't legit enough to give magic credibility :)

If it interests you, Warhammer allowed the use of magic (termed 'sorcery') due to the parallel dimension of "The warp". It is, in essence, a dimension created by a coellescance (sp?) of the mental energy of all life. Since we know that the brain produces measurable waves, the idea isn't completely without footing.

Additionally, out of curiousity, what do you mean by 'developed magic'? Do you mean developed in the sense of evolution; in that the magic itself has reached a point of sophistication that it could be confused for natural/artificially produced effects. OR, do you mean developed in the sense of techniques concerning it's manipulation? If so, we are not only again pointed to question what magic is (and it's source, for eg electricity uses electromagnetism, magic uses ??), but also *how* does one manipulate magic? With machines? If so, doesn't that make your magic-machines technological by very definition?

I'm looking forwards to this reply, for sure. Your idea has potential definitely.


If you rephrase that to be "Any magic is indistiguishable from a sufficiently advanced technology", you still get kind of what he was saying (basically, use 'magic', claim its tech) and it keeps with the original law.

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