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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2007 9:17 am 
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Wow, so thats what happens when your god fails his saving throw.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2007 3:02 pm 
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psianogen wrote:
Wow, so thats what happens when your god fails his saving throw.

Hmm. In D&D our DM ruled that gods are affected just like everybody else on 1s and 20s. No matter what.

Through sheer luck, a god got his ass handed to him by a kobold after a truely outrageous series of rolls. This feels sort of like that... with less of a confused god sitting in the corner in a fetal ball rocking and eating his hair. Though hopefully the priests will make up for this dearth of hair-eatery. Mmm. Hair.


Is it a good sign when you make the pope cry?

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2007 3:49 pm 
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hi hi

I tried to come up with something to say for this momentous occasion, but all I could come up with was "Oh snap!" or "Dun dun dunnn!"


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2007 6:37 pm 
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Labrat wrote:
psianogen wrote:
Wow, so thats what happens when your god fails his saving throw.

Hmm. In D&D our DM ruled that gods are affected just like everybody else on 1s and 20s. No matter what.

Through sheer luck, a god got his ass handed to him by a kobold after a truely outrageous series of rolls. This feels sort of like that... with less of a confused god sitting in the corner in a fetal ball rocking and eating his hair. Though hopefully the priests will make up for this dearth of hair-eatery. Mmm. Hair.


Is it a good sign when you make the pope cry?


A kobold beating a god? Not that surprising. After all, the most powerful character ever is a kobold.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2007 7:51 pm 
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BloodHenge wrote:
Labrat wrote:
psianogen wrote:
Wow, so thats what happens when your god fails his saving throw.

Hmm. In D&D our DM ruled that gods are affected just like everybody else on 1s and 20s. No matter what.

Through sheer luck, a god got his ass handed to him by a kobold after a truely outrageous series of rolls. This feels sort of like that... with less of a confused god sitting in the corner in a fetal ball rocking and eating his hair. Though hopefully the priests will make up for this dearth of hair-eatery. Mmm. Hair.


Is it a good sign when you make the pope cry?


A kobold beating a god? Not that surprising. After all, the most powerful character ever is a kobold.

Do I want to know this story?

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2007 8:10 pm 
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No One wrote:
Do I want to know this story?


Pun-Pun the Omnipotent Level One Kobold of Infinite Power.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2007 10:51 pm 
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Imp-Chan wrote:
This one phrase just keeps repeating in my head...

Quote:
My God... Ian did it!


You too, huh?

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And now, back to learning how to use our new forums. Soon, my pretties, soon our new board shall launch and you can all go nuts creating like a zillion new topics! *cackle*


Also, your new super-top-secret-Errant-Story-custom-skin-that-I'm-not-allowed-to-talk-about is almost done. I think I've even found a way to fix the you-know-what and move the you-know-what-else to where you wanted them. As soon as I'm done you-know-whatting this you-know-when, so you and you-know-who can go over you-know-what before you-know-what is activated.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2007 12:03 am 
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This is gonna be the most cliche thing ever, and I made a forum acct specifically to note this.

I'm honest-to-goodness surprised that the title of this thread isn't that quote from the Nine-Inch-Nails song that goes, "Your God Is Dead, And No-One Cares." Since that about neatly sums up the whole thing.

Nicely done, looking forward to seeing Ian resume his questioning soon.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2007 1:03 am 
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Slamlander wrote:
Imp-Chan wrote:
Also, the priestess's face has exactly the same panicked expression I had the last time I misplaced my evil twin (don't worry, I found him again). Maybe she's panicking not because a calming effect from Luminosita was dissipated, but because she lost her actual connection to Luminosita, which she's used to feeling because she pumps energy into it all the time?


It's consistent with religious magic, where worshipers feed energy into a focus with a bit of positive feel good in exchange. Get rid of the focus and the feedback loop is broken.


Which leaves the idea that you've all of a sudden got a sizeable number of people who have become used to channelling whatever magic they have into a construct, and that energy now has noplace to go.

Oh sure, they had no idea what they were actually doing, this is true, but that just makes it worse.

The blind channellers have been doing this for so long that they've probably got pretty good at it. So now you've got a lot of people who are used to externalising magical power, with no force taking that power out to "ground" it safely, and no training in what to do with it.

Strange things might start to happen... a whole bunch of raw magic, a lot of people suddenly desperate, disillusioned and more inclined to personify their desires and fears than deal with them personally.

The fallout at ground zero of the godboom is Poltergeists!


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2007 1:50 am 
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GrenwichMeanTimeLord wrote:
Which leaves the idea that you've all of a sudden got a sizeable number of people who have become used to channelling whatever magic they have into a construct, and that energy now has noplace to go.

Oh sure, they had no idea what they were actually doing, this is true, but that just makes it worse.

The blind channellers have been doing this for so long that they've probably got pretty good at it. So now you've got a lot of people who are used to externalising magical power, with no force taking that power out to "ground" it safely, and no training in what to do with it.

Strange things might start to happen... a whole bunch of raw magic, a lot of people suddenly desperate, disillusioned and more inclined to personify their desires and fears than deal with them personally.

The fallout at ground zero of the godboom is Poltergeists!


First of all... awesome nick, five stars.

Second of all... I wonder if all the unused energy will coverge into a series of mini-Luminositites all running around and screaming bloody murder, hacking at each other with their psychic axes, getting chased by housecats... it'd be cute!

Then... everyone could have their own personal pocket god... you know, for the quick prayer on the go or the occasional miracle.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2007 2:10 am 
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GrenwichMeanTimeLord wrote:
Slamlander wrote:
Imp-Chan wrote:
Also, the priestess's face has exactly the same panicked expression I had the last time I misplaced my evil twin (don't worry, I found him again). Maybe she's panicking not because a calming effect from Luminosita was dissipated, but because she lost her actual connection to Luminosita, which she's used to feeling because she pumps energy into it all the time?


It's consistent with religious magic, where worshipers feed energy into a focus with a bit of positive feel good in exchange. Get rid of the focus and the feedback loop is broken.


Which leaves the idea that you've all of a sudden got a sizeable number of people who have become used to channelling whatever magic they have into a construct, and that energy now has noplace to go.

Oh sure, they had no idea what they were actually doing, this is true, but that just makes it worse.

The blind channellers have been doing this for so long that they've probably got pretty good at it. So now you've got a lot of people who are used to externalising magical power, with no force taking that power out to "ground" it safely, and no training in what to do with it.

Strange things might start to happen... a whole bunch of raw magic, a lot of people suddenly desperate, disillusioned and more inclined to personify their desires and fears than deal with them personally.

The fallout at ground zero of the godboom is Poltergeists!


Possible. It depends on how the author wants to use this particular plot device. Usually, without a focus, the energy is simply dissipated because the focus has to be active. The priesthood is there to provide activation and, in this case, direction.

Also, the public destruction of Luminosita would lead to wholesale disillusionment and maybe even a negative flow. This might even generate some serious atheists among the population and even a bunch of anti-theists (most atheists are really anti-theists ... those who would refuse gods the right to exist).

Note that this is different from Anilis; a true goddess. Real gods do not need religious magic in order to manifest themselves, as they are entities in their own right. It's only god constructs that need to be the focus of worshippers, as in Terry Prachette's Small Gods. Now, there's a case like what you are talking about, where the religious magic creates it's own focus and the god manifested thereby gains strength by the number of worshippers. Pratchette may parody and satire but, his work is almost encyclopedic about the various plot devices used in the Fantasy genre. Eddings' Rivan Codex is also good.

AncientVikingMaster wrote:
Second of all... I wonder if all the unused energy will coverge into a series of mini-Luminositites all running around and screaming bloody murder, hacking at each other with their psychic axes, getting chased by housecats... it'd be cute!

Then... everyone could have their own personal pocket god... you know, for the quick prayer on the go or the occasional miracle.


You would enjoy Prachette, read Small Gods.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2007 2:31 am 
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Slamlander wrote:
AncientVikingMaster wrote:
Second of all... I wonder if all the unused energy will coverge into a series of mini-Luminositites all running around and screaming bloody murder, hacking at each other with their psychic axes, getting chased by housecats... it'd be cute!

Then... everyone could have their own personal pocket god... you know, for the quick prayer on the go or the occasional miracle.


You would enjoy Prachette, read Small Gods.


Actually, I was originally going to comment on the similarity between his poltergueist theory and Hogfather, but went to look up how to spell anthropomorphic and got distracted. I guess this was just destined to tie into Pratchett one way or another.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2007 2:49 am 
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Slamlander wrote:
Real gods do not need religious magic in order to manifest themselves, as they are entities in their own right. It's only god constructs that need to be the focus of worshippers...


See, I would say the exact opposite is true. Real gods are exclusively the product of worship and faith, and their power is limited and directed as a result of that worship and faith. This is not because they as dieties have limited potential or perception, it is because they are bound inextricably to their worshippers. A true god's potential for power is unlimited not because of their essential nature but because that power is a product of faith. They have no true free will or omnipotence because they are limited by the vision of their worshippers, but that worship makes them not merely a directionless "super-powerful being," but a god... a focus for potentially infinite faith and a force of order within the universe.

However, Luminosita still wasn't a god. He was clearly a construct spell being fed power, not faith, and being controlled by mages, not the limits of his worshippers' vision.

Anilis, on the other hand, is completely independent of her worshippers and unaffected by them. To me, that means she has free will, which by my definition above is not at all godlike. Her power also clearly has limits, though it is an immense amount of power all the same, and it does not appear to be renewable or even remotely affected by faith. She has no apparent need to act as a force for order within the universe, either. So, just because this particular super-powerful being happens to have picked up a few worshippers along the way, and also (supposedly) acted as a creative force within her world, doesn't mean she's a god. It just means she's really powerful.

^-^'

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2007 2:55 am 
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finalcarrots wrote:
Who is the guard slouching against the wall with a very knowing look on his face?

Yep, seems like Jerry's been faking it for quite a while. Head of the Veracian church of False Gods, corrupt? Surely not! ::tongue in cheek::


I was wondering the same thing. May be a time Ninja in disguise, that will let the rest of the village know what happen much faster than anticipated (also might try it on Ian)


Imp-Chan wrote:
This one phrase just keeps repeating in my head...

Quote:
My God... Ian did it!


And now, back to learning how to use our new forums. Soon, my pretties, soon our new board shall launch and you can all go nuts creating like a zillion new topics! *cackle*

^-^'


YEAH!!! AGAIN!!! IAN DID IT !!!!!!


Slamlander wrote:
... and the meek shall inherit ...

n'est pas?


Slamlander wrote:
Note that this is different from Anilis; a true goddess. Real gods do not need religious magic in order to manifest themselves, as they are entities in their own right. It's only god constructs that need to be the focus of worshippers, as in Terry Prachette's Small Gods. Now, there's a case like what you are talking about, where the religious magic creates it's own focus and the god manifested thereby gains strength by the number of worshippers. Pratchette may parody and satire but, his work is almost encyclopedic about the various plot devices used in the Fantasy genre. Eddings' Rivan Codex is also good.


N'est-ce pas? :sweatdrop: :lol:

If you read the french language (not sure it is translate in an other one) you should try the comics "Les Chroniques de la Lune Noire", where you have a mix between your two description.

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Last edited by Neko7 on Thu Aug 16, 2007 6:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2007 3:31 am 
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The comics appear to be pretty standard stuff with nice cover art, though the intros for each volume seem a little over-dramatic, I think. Maybe that's a linguistic thing, though, and I'm just not used to reading literary french, as opposed to purely functional french, so it's actually perfectly normal and not over-dramatic at all in the context of the language? I don't know!

A link: http://lalunenoire.dargaud.com/

^-^'

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2007 3:44 am 
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As a monotheist trinitarian Christian my view on what is a 'true God' would have to be a single omnipotent being, 'a creator of all' with 'infinite power'.

'God' as a monotheistic concept is modeled on the idea of 'infinite power' rather then the polytheistic 'very and supernaturally powerful' and the idea that 'God' would be dependant on faith would make 'God' vulnerable and thus not infinite in power. Such an entity could not share the status with another one of same power as this would limit 'God's' power over the other.


Anilis is apparently both a creator and very supernaturally powerful but is within the bounds of limitations. For the elves to call her 'God' is within polytheistic and cultural bounds as she is their creator and 'very supernaturally powerful'. Perhaps the elves even see her as 'all-powerful' despite her husband or whatchamacallit lover she had.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2007 3:49 am 
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The monotheistic Christian god does not exist in the context of Errant Story, and generally is outside these arguments because they're about gods in literature, not the nature of the divine within our own world.

Within the context of the story, there is no true monotheistic god, the closest we've seen is Luminosita. So far, we've seen no evidence of there being any true god at all.

^-^'

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2007 3:56 am 
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'cept Poe.

And he's above such vulgar displays of power.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2007 4:01 am 
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Position A: An infinite god
Position B: Species-geist
Position C: Immensely but finitely Powerful being

Judaen God = A
Small Gods = B
Anilis = C

Luminosita = Magic Elemental Golem?


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2007 4:24 am 
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Imp-Chan wrote:
Slamlander wrote:
Real gods do not need religious magic in order to manifest themselves, as they are entities in their own right. It's only god constructs that need to be the focus of worshippers...


See, I would say the exact opposite is true. Real gods are exclusively the product of worship and faith, and their power is limited and directed as a result of that worship and faith. This is not because they as dieties have limited potential or perception, it is because they are bound inextricably to their worshippers. A true god's potential for power is unlimited not because of their essential nature but because that power is a product of faith. They have no true free will or omnipotence because they are limited by the vision of their worshippers, but that worship makes them not merely a directionless "super-powerful being," but a god... a focus for potentially infinite faith and a force of order within the universe.

Yeah this system has been used in many settings - Forgotten Realms, American Gods, etc.

There are no absolutes in fantasy, Slamlander.


:-?


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