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PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2007 10:07 pm 
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Sigh.

This argument only ever swirls around and around the same points.

So let me state clearly, and hopefully finally what I have stated several times before about my own opinions on this fiasco:

1. I do dislike the Errant Story boards. Everyone knows this. I do not however, dislike every single person who posts on them.

2. The rules of 'engagement' or 'behaviour' vary greatly between unrelated and es boards.

3. Sometimes a new poster comes to unrelated and acts outwith the bounds of what one or several of the regular members of unrelated considers as acceptable

4. This step, were the board run with any authority, would ideally be 'the user is reported to a moderator' or 'pointed in the direction of the rules of the forum'. We have neither.

5. Over time a tribalistic and frankly brutalising way of 'teaching' newer posters in unrelated has evolved - it used to iniations which consisted of wildly typed paragraphs of tentacle rape and other obscenities in the hope of 'scaring the kids straight' or informing the new poster of the nature of the forum in a short sharp manner. This was in time replace with the much easier and frankly less silly pass time of 'trolling' which while generally unfair downright nasty it does seem to weed out the undesirable new members.

6. Unfortunately it weeds out a lot of other people to.

7. Therefore we/I would like to stop doing thins.

8. To do this you have to replace it with something that works equally, or in this case, preferably better.

9. Moderation would work better and since it would be the direct responsibility of only a few people to police new members and guide them in the ways of desirable behaviour then I/everyone could stop being trolls and go back to trying to do whatever it was this forum did before all this hilarity started and that is why I am pushing for it - because it would be nice if this was a fun place again.


Also, while I'm at it I do so completely agree that the feeling of unwelcomeness that ES posters are greeted with is entirely founded in reality and a terrible fact. However, I'd also like to point out just how welcome unrelated posters feel in ES. Which I would imagine is equally unwelcome.

Laying the blame entirely on one side is impractical in any situation. The fact is the two communities diverged at one point and their memebership polarised. Pointing the finger of blame after the fact seems redundant when the simple fact is that 'we are not of one mind and spirit'.

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Last edited by onion on Tue Jul 17, 2007 10:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2007 10:11 pm 
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finalcarrots wrote:
madadric wrote:
if this community was visited only by those who would pay for it, it would be a very small community.


Terribly sorry, I mean "monetary stake" to mean, "one who pays for the forums to remain up". Sorry for not clarifiying there, bud.


there are more stakes than monetary in a community. A forum is not just the server it's hosted on, it's the users.

when you participate in an online community you invest timeand effort into it. You (hopefully) add your own biological and technological uniqeness to it's own, adding to the community's overall personality. These sorts of investments can have a much greater emotional attatchment than a mere subscription fee.

The forum has changed from it's initial days wen the major board was EN and that board hosted all types of unrelated threads. It was vibrant, interesting, and dirty.

now the forum as a whole is admittedly different, and unrelated is a much smaller sub-community of the older posters. I personally don't mind the noobs, so long as i can keep telling dirty jokes and keep being a nerd.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2007 10:19 pm 
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Is Onions Keyboard hooked up to a bomb that will detonate if she doesn't rant?

Because she's half-way to writing War And Peace today.

Actor.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2007 10:24 pm 
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Edited on the basis of it being overly bitchy and defensive to someon who doesn't deserve it.

Too many drugs.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2007 4:48 am 
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Now that was what I was looking for, onion. A good solid answer without the trappings of anger and malice.

I respect what you want, and I do understand the need for moderation, greatly. I will say one last thing though -- be careful of where membership is born. ES brings in a lot of members, who, after reading the comic and posting in that forum find their curiosity leading them into other forums. As Midlands, ES, and Unrelated seem to be the only forums regularly frequented, a large part of membership is coming from ES.

Thank you for a pretty damn good debate.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2007 5:38 am 
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That was something I have said a number of times in a number of different places.

Of course things round here can get awfully confusing and the search function is not exactly the hot shit.

We are aware of the problems with membership but hopefully with the election of moderators there will plans affot to address them that will hopefully pay off if enough effort is made.

It's been an interesting topic of discussion I'll give you that but as a hint, when I'm not laying down all the facts it's because I'm holding my cards close to my chest until it's the right time to play them.

Timing is afterall, everything.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2007 5:50 am 
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This is why you'll win my vote for admin. Despite the trolling and attitude, you know how to handle yourself.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2007 6:35 am 
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...

I feel like I should listen to some Dragonforce and stare proudly into the horizon or something.

It's been that sort of day.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2007 7:34 am 
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finalcarrots wrote:
Oh I don't have a problem with the way things are run. I have a problem with bullying new members around because they want to participate in forums other than ES. It seems every time someone new posts regularly in Unrelated, there's a leap to make that person feel completely unwelcome to post. If it's an exclusive club run, and yes, you do mean run, by individual members, then the club is very excluding of anyone who isn't one of those members.

Maybe I got it all wrong in thinking everyone's opinions, if not juvenile and screaming of obscenities and cries for "moar cock/tits", were allowed and welcome. Perhaps if you so desire to separate the comic forums from the rest, it's because people actually seem to enjoy the comic forums and expressing their opinions. In another thread, you slammed Hil for her dislike of the Unrelated forum. It's not just Hil that dislikes it, it's a number of others who post exclusively in the comic forums because of a feeling of "unwelcomeness" in Unrelated.

You are among the individuals who sees it as your obligation to run, and yes, you mean run, Unrelated, but you seem to have lost sight of your own goal to foster a spirit of fun and good relations. For lack of a better way to say it, you present everyone with an "I hate you because you're not me" attitude and deride the attempts of others to provide entertainment.

In short, the very things you say you want are the things you seem to be working hardest against. Not to personally jab at you here, but I am certain you will read this and disregard it, settling that your way is THE way. It's that spirit that defeats "fun and good relations".

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2007 7:37 am 
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Blue Sun Missile I'm not entirely sure what point you're trying to make but it would probably make more sense if you actually type something of your own or you could just leave a heated discussion between two people, neither of which who were you, the hell alone once it's already over.

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Last edited by onion on Wed Jul 18, 2007 7:38 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2007 7:37 am 
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Sun Missile wrote:
finalcarrots wrote:
*snip*

Et tu, Blue Sun Missile! Then fall, Caesar.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2007 7:38 am 
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finalcarrots wrote:
Oh I don't have a problem with the way things are run. I have a problem with bullying new members around because they want to participate in forums other than ES. It seems every time someone new posts regularly in Unrelated, there's a leap to make that person feel completely unwelcome to post. If it's an exclusive club run, and yes, you do mean run, by individual members, then the club is very excluding of anyone who isn't one of those members.

Maybe I got it all wrong in thinking everyone's opinions, if not juvenile and screaming of obscenities and cries for "moar cock/tits", were allowed and welcome. Perhaps if you so desire to separate the comic forums from the rest, it's because people actually seem to enjoy the comic forums and expressing their opinions. In another thread, you slammed Hil for her dislike of the Unrelated forum. It's not just Hil that dislikes it, it's a number of others who post exclusively in the comic forums because of a feeling of "unwelcomeness" in Unrelated.

You are among the individuals who sees it as your obligation to run, and yes, you mean run, Unrelated, but you seem to have lost sight of your own goal to foster a spirit of fun and good relations. For lack of a better way to say it, you present everyone with an "I hate you because you're not me" attitude and deride the attempts of others to provide entertainment.

In short, the very things you say you want are the things you seem to be working hardest against. Not to personally jab at you here, but I am certain you will read this and disregard it, settling that your way is THE way. It's that spirit that defeats "fun and good relations".


I had written a long essay on why this place is the way it is and why I enjoy it, but my comuter fucked up, so Ill summarize.

I was new. I got hazed. I stuck to my guns and remained myself. People here accepted it, and whether they like me or not (mostly indifferent), They have amused me endlessly, And I hope I have provided some amusement in return, because that is the reason for this forum.
Amusement.
This place is a forum for a group of people who talk to react with each other harshly, but it is all in good fun. It is adults only, and any children who eneter shoudl get parents approval. Which is a sign of bad parenting. Bad parents. Shame on you.
G.r.i.m.m.y.
posting from his Kyhm approved Blue Sun Missile

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2007 9:31 am 
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Through all of this, I have to agree completely with Onion. Without a set of rules or at least a moderator that will take decisive action, we've essentially developed a manner by which we cull the unwanted- however, this also culls people who might otherwise be awesome.

A shame, but we do what we can.

Further, I agree with Maddy. Without the users, a forum would be nothing. Without the forum, the users would not be banded together. What then if the plug gets pulled? Well, I'm sure a new forum, in time, would appear. And if all of the posters were to leave, new ones would come. It's just the nature of things, and attempting to pull those sort of rhetorical guns just doesn't make sense.

... I guess that's really all I have to say, for now.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2007 9:49 am 
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Apologies for the empty first post. the preview of the message was randomly blocked by my work computer and trying to go back to the original message ended up posting the f' up seen above.

Blue Sun Missile
wonders if who ever wrote the code for the name change can add color. (Blue is my favorite)

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2007 12:23 am 
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Rusty wrote:
Through all of this, I have to agree completely with Onion. Without a set of rules or at least a moderator that will take decisive action, we've essentially developed a manner by which we cull the unwanted- however, this also culls people who might otherwise be awesome.



Except, there were never rules before, or even super-active moderators during the time a lot of people were active. Somehow, a group of people decided Kyhmforums = SAlite, and over time more and more people left who didn't want to be a part of SAlite, thus reinforcing that this was the right course of action.

If you really wanted to change how Kyhmforums is, you would do so tomorrow. Stop the trolling and don't respond to bullshit (which could backfire this very post!). You only want an administrator so you don't have to take personal blame for your douchebaggery.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2007 4:43 am 
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Skjie wrote:
Except, there were never rules before, or even super-active moderators during the time a lot of people were active. Somehow, a group of people decided Kyhmforums = SAlite, and over time more and more people left who didn't want to be a part of SAlite, thus reinforcing that this was the right course of action.

If you really wanted to change how Kyhmforums is, you would do so tomorrow. Stop the trolling and don't respond to bullshit (which could backfire this very post!).


Honestly, I don't know what the big fuss is all about. We're not drowning in bots or trolls here. Etiquette here is just a matter of common sense. Just show one another the basic courtesy you'd show anyone beyond the limits of this little corner of the internet. Hell, it's not like we all have to like one another. Just so long as we can muster a little respect for one another and keep from blogging this place down with drama/flame wars, I think things will be real horrorshow.

If this place has degenerated into something that we're ashamed to be a part of, it's no one's fault but our own.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2007 7:26 am 
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I think the one of the main complaints (stemming from members of other groups on the kyhm forums) was that this unrelated place has become hostile towards anyone who ventures into it, and is a very unwelcoming place towards new people.
As for the more serious problems, Id refer you to vass or onion, as they have explained it more eliquently than I could even attempt to.

Blue Sun Missile

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2007 10:06 am 
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Skjie wrote:
Except, there were never rules before, or even super-active moderators during the time a lot of people were active. Somehow, a group of people decided Kyhmforums = SAlite, and over time more and more people left who didn't want to be a part of SAlite, thus reinforcing that this was the right course of action.

Yes, it was obviously an active decision by a dark cabal of forum members who subsequently turned the forums evil and not a natural progression based upon the fact that EN was the original attraction for these forums; that unrelated was created as a place for the people who were attracted to these forums by EN to chill and talk non-EN stuff and that those very people tended to find amusement in linking tubgirl and other shocksites in unrelated.

If kyhm forums have been turned into SAlite, why then haven't all the people who departed for SA returned? Where's eronarn? Radio/eriatarka? BDM05? Muad'Dib? I can't say I've seen a post by Rupe in a while.

Meanwhile, those regulars who in the past have bothered to provide reasons for their departure, have stated medical reasons, work commitments, "hay guys I'm moving to germany for a year. lol no I'm not, but I'll be too busy to post", moving overseas, everyone is a dirty commie hippy, "oh em gee you banned grey and that's repressive dictatorship", too much drama, a need for more free time and, of course, too many pain in the arse newbies as the reasons why they were leaving. I have only once seen a regular say that the forums were turning too
malicious and "SA-like." I'll leave it to you to work out who that person was. Only one out of over fifty departed regulars across probably over a hundred hiatuses.

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If you really wanted to change how Kyhmforums is, you would do so tomorrow. Stop the trolling and don't respond to bullshit (which could backfire this very post!). You only want an administrator so you don't have to take personal blame for your douchebaggery.

Again you have cut to the heart of the issue and determined that the dark cabal of evil SAlite-ness is merely out to exculpate itself of blame for the current situation. However, you are so fucking wrong. An admin (and some semblance of order) is needed for several reasons:
  • It's something novel, we haven't had a competent and active admin in a while. Some would argue ever, but that's a minor issue for later.
  • Self moderation has been an unmitigated disaster. Without moderators or admins who are willing to act justly, listen to the community *and* try to balance the two, it falls upon the community itself to enforce a community policy re: etiquette, courtesy and any other posting standards they desire. As a result people are made to feel unwelcome because the community has to resort to nagging and bullying tactics as there is no way to sticky a thread for such standards without a mod or admin.
  • It has been public knowledge since at least the start of May that CAS is intending to create its own forums and leaving these forums to make their own way. It can therefore be reasonably assumed that these forums will no longer get an influx of new members from ES or Midlands and will have to acquire new members some other way lest they turn into this. As kyhm has also stated that he has no real interest in actively managing the forums, it devolves upon the community itself to find its own direction that will allow it to survive and choose people who are willing to actually do what it takes to keep these forums alive. Strangely enough, doing what it takes will involve someone(s) finding a new means to attract people to the forums and, if necessary, doing work on the forums (such as deleting old forums, creating new forums, banning misbehaving people) and, if necessary, making sure that the community's standards of behaviour are observed and maintained by both the community and the newcomers.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2007 11:43 am 
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Vass wrote:
lest they turn into this.


Wait, you mean this hasn't? Anyway, I'm not :canada: because big meanies make me cry at night, but it is kinda shitty to see most of the new threads turn into people trolling each other.

EDIT: If stopping the trolling requires someone to hold your hands every time you post, so be it.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2007 1:42 pm 
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Skjie wrote:
trolling trolling trolling trolling trolling trolling trolling


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You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

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