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PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2002 11:46 pm 
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For all us liberal conspiracy nuts, I recommend the book YOu are being lied to That http://www.disinfo.com put out a few years back. Most interesting, and very well researched.

Yasser Arrafat was democratically elected.

And, if we're taking elections at face value, so was Hussein.

If were taking out dictators because of electoral fraud, Indi, Indonesia, lare areas of Asia, and Europe, and SOuth America, woudl all be next under the gun.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2002 11:51 pm 
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On 2002-10-20 23:42, IcyMonkey wrote:
*clap clap clap*

Well said, Tycho! Glad that someone else on the board knows what the fuck's really happening in this great "democracy" of ours.

Now come, join the cult of Godless Commie Traitors.

/Hands tycho a tract.


Thanks, but you must show me how to mod my "expatriate" to something more accurate. I don't normally associate with "unamerican" groups, as people tend to steryotype them and ignore what they say, but in this case I don't think I'll be able to shake the label after that spectacle. So thanks, and I'm glad to be a member. At least now nobody will be confused about where I stand.

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<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: tychoseven on 2002-10-20 23:52 ]</font>


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2002 12:16 am 
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On 2002-10-20 23:46, themadthinker wrote:
For all us liberal conspiracy nuts, I recommend the book YOu are being lied to That http://www.disinfo.com put out a few years back. Most interesting, and very well researched.

Yasser Arrafat was democratically elected.

And, if we're taking elections at face value, so was Hussein.

If were taking out dictators because of electoral fraud, Indi, Indonesia, lare areas of Asia, and Europe, and SOuth America, woudl all be next under the gun.



Good book. They made a sequel to that called "Everything You Know is Wrong" which, among other things, contains the following story (which I'm relating as best I remember it):

Ford motor company some years back discovered that one of their car models was missing a vital component which would cause fuel leakage, the result being that if the car was overturned, it would immediately burst into flame.

So they did a little number cruching. They took the number of cars of this model that they sold, multiplied it by the chances of dying due to this defect, and thus got the likely number of deaths that would result from their failure to install the component. They multiplied this by the amount of money they'd have to pay for the out of court settlements for each victim's family. They then multiplied the number of cars by the chance of injury caused by the defect and multiplied that number by the average out-of-court settlement for injuries. They added the two figures to get the total amount they'd have to pay if they failed to install this component. They then multiplied the number of cars by $11, which was how much it would cost to install the component on each car. They found this figure to be greater than the first figure, and so they never issued a recall.

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On 2002-10-20 23:51, tychoseven wrote:

Thanks, but you must show me how to mod my "expatriate" to something more accurate. I don't normally associate with "unamerican" groups, as people tend to steryotype them and ignore what they say, but in this case I don't think I'll be able to shake the label after that spectacle. So thanks, and I'm glad to be a member. At least now nobody will be confused about where I stand.


Getting a custom rank is easy - just Private-Message Kyhm asking him to change your rank title to whatever, and he'll do it as soon as he can. As for "joining 'unamerican groups,'" well... Confidentially, the Cult of Godless Commie Traitors is totally tongue-in cheek. (Just don't tell comrade Rand I said that.) It's not like we actually do anything.

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<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: IcyMonkey on 2002-10-21 00:22 ]</font>


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2002 7:39 am 
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I don't get it. 90+% of the people in the middle east don't have a single say in what happens, but 'if they want a republic they'll make one'?

Did I miss something? Since when do we say 'if you want freedom, you have to get it on your own'?

Are we really all that self centered and conceited, now? No more 'fight for right', just 'I have mine, you can get yours on your own'?

This is truly saddening. I feel a tear coming on.

-Kills Commies
Still if you will not fight for the right when you can easily win without bloodshed, if you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not so costly, you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all of the odds against you and only a precious chance for survival. There may be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no chance of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves."


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2002 8:00 am 
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And, if we're taking elections at face value, so was Hussein.


Yes of ocurse...they counted 11 million votes (which were made basically at gunpoint) overnight, by hand...


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2002 8:25 am 
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On 2002-10-20 12:12, Lifyre wrote:
Well here we go folks...

Nuke the Middle East.
Hell yeah lets pave the Middle East in Glass!

-Lifyre


You will only have yourself to blame when the CNN crew cathes my naked ass on t.v... i mean if everythings gonna be glass then I'm gonna live in a glass house right?

... yeah you think about that one :razz:


so someone explain to me the benifits of Change-ing Saudia Arabia into a democrack head? what exactly would MOUI benifit? (i mean sure things suck here... but at least it's stable or somethin...)


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2002 8:37 am 
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For one, it'll be a hell of a lot better after everything stabalizes.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2002 9:59 am 
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mm.. fight club promoted anti-cap rants, how uncommon

as for bringing people up on warcrimes charges, really, just don't even try, it just makes the rest of the world leaders look bad, talking of glass houses, they won't be the first ones to throw the stones unless they really have to, can you think of a big country that's blameless and innocent of any human rights violations? that's because there aren't any, war crimes or not, you can only measure the amount of blood, not decide who's covered and who isn't

i had to read some Chomsky this morning, i hated it

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2002 10:34 am 
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Which did you hate more, the gross oversimplifications or the blind idealism?


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2002 10:40 am 
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On 2002-10-20 23:32, tychoseven wrote:

I refer to the US as a democracy because that is how it is popularly known. I understand that this country was a republic at one point in time. However that republic has ceased to exist. We live in an <b>oligarchy</b> now.

According to the Columbia Encyclopedia:
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The Columbia Encyclopedia, Sixth Edition. 2001.

oligarchy

(l´gärk) (KEY) [Gr.,=rule by the few], rule by a few members of a community or group. When referring to governments, the classical definition of oligarchy, as given for example by Aristotle, is of government by a few, usually the rich, for their own advantage.


The ruling elite doesn't answer to us. They control the money. They infuence the government. They own the mainstream media. All they require of us is our consent, and that can be manufactured though manipulation of these resources.



Read the Constitution. That is EXACTLY what this country is! That is the principle it was founded upon!


As for it being a broken system it is. the system was broken because they people in florida can't count. If Gore (an eilte just like bush) had gotten more votes in florida (before the legally impotent supreme court stepped in) he would be our president right now. And if you want to get into what is wrong with our country it is the fact that the Supreme Court has no check on its actions. its decrees are supreme and no one can challenge them.

Our country is a democracy in the greater meaning of the word. just like the European socialist republics (Britin, france, Germany, etc...) are. We elect ALL of our representation. The American public who is too blind and stupid to realize the hole they are digging for themselves by elcting the few the proud the corrupt to high political office.

As far as the middle east is concerned I can agree that would shouldn't force democracy upon them. We should provide them the opportunity to have one if they so choose. Which they do not have currently.

And I don't have a TV. I don't get my news from CNN or Fox or NBC. I get my news from NPR (the ONLY major domestic news group to actually air most opinions), the BBC, and a few other english language news publications. I'm rabidly opposed to many social issues in our country. I think the MPAA, the MRIA, and their friends all need to be launched into the sun. the Republocrats (thats the Republican and Democratic parties for those who still think we are a 2 party system) thrown in jail and gets us some new political parties.

Now. I don't like our country. I am under no illusions as to where I stand in it. But I do know that I am going to do my hardest to change it. Fuck the commies, their plans were shit, fuck the founding fathers, they plans or worked due to a mistake early on, and fuck the american public because they are retarded and intellectually impotent.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2002 10:46 am 
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On 2002-10-21 09:59, ollie wrote:

i had to read some Chomsky this morning, i hated it



you poor bastard... What "glimmer" of intelligence did you drag out of pile of rotting oozing filth that is his typical bilge?


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2002 10:50 am 
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mostly the conspiracy element i don't like, people who look for conspiricies tieing everything together are classic insecure paranoid idealists, i mean, if there isn't a big evil company running the world, who is? what if it was actually just a bunch of people muddling along on a day to day basis, that whpuld be terrible, best that there's someone at the controls, evil or not

simple sub/dom behavure etc, he can claim to hate being controlled, but is actually in love with conspiricies and oppressive government, if it wern't for them, he'd have nothing

he only uses world events and political/social movements to display his own ideas and conspiracy theories anyway, Kosovo could be exchanged for Cuba, or Vietnam, in the end the (his) story is just the same, kind of opposes his humanatarian approach, if he ends up dealing in universials when claiming to attack specifics

but hey, it's all nice and sensationalist so that people can easily read it without having to get too involved or indepth accounts eh?

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<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: ollie on 2002-10-21 10:52 ]</font>


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2002 11:00 am 
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Ahh...so ignorant, so amusing.

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The ruling elite doesn't answer to us. They control the money. They infuence the government. They own the mainstream media. All they require of us is our consent, and that can be manufactured though manipulation of these resources.


Fun fact of the day: guess who is the single largest donating to California Governer Grey Davis' campaign fund?

THE PRISON GAURD'S UNION.

Yep, the rich control everything alright. Thats exactly why the PGU got some ridiculously high % of raise.

Yes, money influences the government a lot. You play that up, though, and play down the part unions play in that.

Besides that, nobody can do anything overtly unbeneficial to the people, sometimes even environment (again, look at gray davis- if he gets reelected, its only because the republicans are too stupid to choose a good canidate) without having to answer to them. You talk of great ideals and 'fixing' things but at the same time you assume your fellow man is too stupid to know when something bad is happening?

Besides that, you assume (as many do) that "the rich" are some cohesive, even semi-cohesive group that work twords some of the same goals. The fact is they are the most divided of any of social class, because they usually compete against one another. Middle class and lower class people do not, traditionally, have that kind of seperation, and they have only moderate power as a group. The rich have no power as 'a group'- only as individuals.

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As for it being a broken system it is. the system was broken because they people in florida can't count. If Gore (an eilte just like bush) had gotten more votes in florida (before the legally impotent supreme court stepped in) he would be our president right now. And if you want to get into what is wrong with our country it is the fact that the Supreme Court has no check on its actions. its decrees are supreme and no one can challenge them.


*sigh*...they only have jurisdiction over several places. Their JOB is to interpret the law. Their decrees are supreme with respect to the law, but on any other matter they have no control.
I don't get it. You play up the Supreme Court as some dictator-like mass, when first off they are usually divided on what they think, and second, all they can do is interpret the law!

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Our country is a democracy in the greater meaning of the word. just like the European socialist republics (Britin, france, Germany, etc...) are. We elect ALL of our representation. The American public who is too blind and stupid to realize the hole they are digging for themselves by elcting the few the proud the corrupt to high political office.


Oh yes, of course. Too stupid to realise...what again? What has TEH EVAL RICH CONSPARICY done with the US that has degraded and is destroying it?

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As far as the middle east is concerned I can agree that would shouldn't force democracy upon them. We should provide them the opportunity to have one if they so choose. Which they do not have currently.


Then you are argueing semantics. In a republic, the people can vote into another system. All that is takes is stability and then there can be a peaceful government change.

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And I don't have a TV. I don't get my news from CNN or Fox or NBC. I get my news from NPR (the ONLY major domestic news group to actually air most opinions), the BBC, and a few other english language news publications. I'm rabidly opposed to many social issues in our country. I think the MPAA, the MRIA, and their friends all need to be launched into the sun. the Republocrats (thats the Republican and Democratic parties for those who still think we are a 2 party system) thrown in jail and gets us some new political parties.


All of these sentiments come from swallowing things fed to you, not by the republicans or democrats, which most Americans do (unfortunately) but third parties.

I don't get it. You're just as bad as any CNN-addicted American, just on a different side.

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Now. I don't like our country. I am under no illusions as to where I stand in it. But I do know that I am going to do my hardest to change it. Fuck the commies, their plans were shit, fuck the founding fathers, they plans or worked due to a mistake early on, and fuck the american public because they are retarded and intellectually impotent.


Here we see your true colors. Another aristocrat planning to change everything, popular opinion be damned, because 'he knows better.'

Ho-hum, another throwback to the middle ages. You would be a lot more comforatable in pre-US Afghanistan than here.

-Kills Commies
"Still if you will not fight for the right when you can easily win without bloodshed, if you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not so costly, you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all of the odds against you and only a precious chance for survival. There may be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no chance of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves."


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2002 11:08 am 
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On 2002-10-21 10:50, ollie wrote:
mostly the conspiracy element i don't like, people who look for conspiricies tieing everything together are classic insecure paranoid idealists, i mean, if there isn't a big evil company running the world, who is? what if it was actually just a bunch of people muddling along on a day to day basis, that whpuld be terrible, best that there's someone at the controls, evil or not

simple sub/dom behavure etc, he can claim to hate being controlled, but is actually in love with conspiricies and oppressive government, if it wern't for them, he'd have nothing

he only uses world events and political/social movements to display his own ideas and conspiracy theories anyway, Kosovo could be exchanged for Cuba, or Vietnam, in the end the (his) story is just the same, kind of opposes his humanatarian approach, if he ends up dealing in universials when claiming to attack specifics

but hey, it's all nice and sensationalist so that people can easily read it without having to get too involved or indepth accounts eh?

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<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: ollie on 2002-10-21 10:52 ]</font>


word up O word up, tell it like it is.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2002 11:38 am 
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Dear god! I LOVE intelligent people!

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On 2002-10-21 11:00, Kills Commies wrote:

*sigh*...they only have jurisdiction over several places. Their JOB is to interpret the law. Their decrees are supreme with respect to the law, but on any other matter they have no control.
I don't get it. You play up the Supreme Court as some dictator-like mass, when first off they are usually divided on what they think, and second, all they can do is interpret the law!



Your point. Their word is law but only insofar as saying something is wrong.

Quote:

Quote:
Our country is a democracy in the greater meaning of the word. just like the European socialist republics (Britin, france, Germany, etc...) are. We elect ALL of our representation. The American public who is too blind and stupid to realize the hole they are digging for themselves by elcting the few the proud the corrupt to high political office.


Oh yes, of course. Too stupid to realise...what again? What has TEH EVAL RICH CONSPARICY done with the US that has degraded and is destroying it?



Dear God no! They don't realize that the people they are electing don't really stand for their best interests 9 times out of 10. Money just makes it harder for competition in some cases, it doesn't tell people where to vote.

Quote:

Quote:

... In a republic, the people can vote into another system. All that is takes is stability and then there can be a peaceful government change.



Agreed. If the people over there are really dumb enough to want a dictatorship or kingdom though I don't see how we can force them to do otherwise.

Quote:

Quote:
And I don't have a TV. I don't get my news from CNN or Fox or NBC. I get my news from NPR (the ONLY major domestic news group to actually air most opinions), the BBC, and a few other english language news publications. I'm rabidly opposed to many social issues in our country. I think the MPAA, the MRIA, and their friends all need to be launched into the sun. the Republocrats (thats the Republican and Democratic parties for those who still think we are a 2 party system) thrown in jail and gets us some new political parties.


All of these sentiments come from swallowing things fed to you, not by the republicans or democrats, which most Americans do (unfortunately) but third parties.

I don't get it. You're just as bad as any CNN-addicted American, just on a different side.



Which sentiments would you ber refering to? The fact that I don't support a single party in existence or the fact that Bill Clinton and Al Gore had 99% identical policies to G. W. Bush with the exception of their last 2 months in office? The Democrats and Republicans don't argue over issues (although that DOES seem to be changing) as often as they argue over semantics.

I think our system needs a complete overhaul. Not a new constitution or anything that dramatic, more like a new infusion of different and diverse ideas to chose from.

how am I the same a CNN-addicted americans? Because I look at the records, I listen to the retoric, and I dare to form my own opinions? I agree with some parts of EVERY party. I like an agressive foreign policy (as per republican typical views) and I like an evironmentally friendly industrial policy (democratic) and I believe in personal privacy (as per the constitution, which the MPAA, RIAA, and assorted others in cluding bush are trying to remove. Look at the bills they are pushing in congress or the actions they are taking) and I think that the less the governement is involved in our personal lives the better.

I don't take antying that is fed to me at face value. I try to take in everything that is said and create my own views. Which unfortunately labels me as a radical on both sides. I am in many ways the opposite of a centrist, I take some extreme views from both sides of the political spectrum.

Quote:

Quote:
Now. I don't like our country. I am under no illusions as to where I stand in it. But I do know that I am going to do my hardest to change it. Fuck the commies, their plans were shit, fuck the founding fathers, they plans or worked due to a mistake early on, and fuck the american public because they are retarded and intellectually impotent.


Here we see your true colors. Another aristocrat planning to change everything, popular opinion be damned, because 'he knows better.'

Ho-hum, another throwback to the middle ages. You would be a lot more comforatable in pre-US Afghanistan than here.



Actually i wouldn't. The country is finally going in a direction I can agree with.

As for being arisocracy... I lack the two major things required to be an aristocrat. Money and the belief that the public can't be made infromed enough to make their own decisions.

My main political goal is to get the american public to think for themselves, not for them to spit what I feed them back at me. How to accomplish this I don't know. But I do know that not doing anything feels wrong, especially in a system where I can at least try to make a difference.

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-Kills Commies
"Still if you will not fight for the right when you can easily win without bloodshed, if you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not so costly, you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all of the odds against you and only a precious chance for survival. There may be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no chance of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves."


Thank you KC. You have rationalized me somewhat (I tend to swerve off into irrationality when I deal with people who can't express their view in a rational and non-fanatical views, which I unfortunately might do). If I ever make it to higher political office (scary thought isn't it?) could I hire you to pop my bubble and argue against me?

-Lifyre


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2002 12:12 pm 
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On 2002-10-21 11:00, Kills Commies wrote:
Ahh...so ignorant, so amusing.

Look, you are obviously an intelligent individual. However, it doesn't mean someone is ignorant because they don't agree with you. You have my respect as a knowedgable and intelligent person, but you have much learning yet to do. I've been where you are. In the next few years your conception of the world will turn itself inside out. You will learn, most importantly, just how little you know. A truly wise man understands that he doesn't know <b>anything</b> compared to what there is to know. That is the most important thing you will learn. This isn't a personal attack, so please don't take it as one.

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The ruling elite doesn't answer to us. They control the money. They infuence the government. They own the mainstream media. All they require of us is our consent, and that can be manufactured though manipulation of these resources.


Fun fact of the day: guess who is the single largest donating to California Governer Grey Davis' campaign fund?

THE PRISON GAURD'S UNION.

Yep, the rich control everything alright. Thats exactly why the PGU got some ridiculously high % of raise.
[/quote]

I'm not talking state government. That's a different story. They operate in an entierly different arena, with different rules. I'm refering to the big fish, the federal government. Unions can give money to federal canidates alright, but that doesn't put the union behind the wheel when it comes to the big guys.

Quote:
Besides that, nobody can do anything overtly unbeneficial to the people, sometimes even environment (again, look at gray davis- if he gets reelected, its only because the republicans are too stupid to choose a good canidate) without having to answer to them. You talk of great ideals and 'fixing' things but at the same time you assume your fellow man is too stupid to know when something bad is happening?


I don't assume that people are too dumb to understand. People are used to having everything fed to them, and thus don't often exert the effort requiered to see through the bullshit. People don't see what's going on because society is structured so as to keep them from seeing it. "What does the billboard say? Come and play, come and play."

Quote:
Bsides that, you assume (as many do) that "the rich" are some cohesive, even semi-cohesive group that work twords some of the same goals. The fact is they are the most divided of any of social class, because they usually compete against one another. Middle class and lower class people do not, traditionally, have that kind of seperation, and they have only moderate power as a group. The rich have no power as 'a group'- only as individuals.


The rich don't need to be unified. Nor did I say they were unified. They serve their own self-interest. The problem is that so much power is centralized in the hands of so few. That's the way industrial capitalism functions. Many corporations are linked to each other by several means.(I wish I could find the website, dammit.) Unfortunately I can't back that up because I can't find my evidence, but there is a website that has cataloged and charted how major corporations are linked to each other.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2002 12:18 pm 
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On 2002-10-21 07:39, Kills Commies wrote:
I don't get it. 90+% of the people in the middle east don't have a single say in what happens, but 'if they want a republic they'll make one'?

Did I miss something? Since when do we say 'if you want freedom, you have to get it on your own'?

Are we really all that self centered and conceited, now? No more 'fight for right', just 'I have mine, you can get yours on your own'?


Nope. I'm saying we have no right to force our vision of democracy on them. It's their country, and it's up to them to decide how they want to govern themselves. We can help them overturn the current system, but in no way should we be installing governments.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2002 12:19 pm 
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KC's harmless. He's an opinionated bastard just likeme...

You don't sound much like a Godless Commie Traitor... You're too... rational. Icy at least has the decency to spew random nonsensical filth for us to ignore.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2002 12:20 pm 
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ah, posted twice accidentaly.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: tychoseven on 2002-10-22 11:48 ]</font>


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2002 12:26 pm 
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um why did you past that last one may i ask?


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