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PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2002 5:28 pm 
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Should prayer be allowed in schools?

I think it should, because it's not like the govt is supporting it or anything, it's just our choice. Saying we can't publicly pray is restricting our freedom of speech.

And if anyone thinks I'm biuased because I'm a Christian, I really don't care if the Satanists do it publicly either, it's a basic right of the people, and no one should be restricted.

What do you think?

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2002 5:33 pm 
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No one seriously thinks that prayer shouldn't be allowed in schools.

The issue is whether prayer in schools should be made somehow official, whether with prayer-like "moments of silence", that infamous "under God" clause, or any other forms of administrative endorsement.

Should kids be allowed to pray in schools?

Of course. This isn't even being argued over, although Jack Chick will try to convince you otherwise. It's your mind, do with it what you want.

Should school teachers or administrations require it, lead it, or set aside time for it?

No. The establishment clause is there for a reason.

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<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Pyromancer on 2002-10-21 17:36 ]</font>


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2002 6:39 pm 
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I have no problems with prayer being allowed in schools as long as students aren't forced to participate in religious activities. I can see some fights breaking out between the opposing viewpoints in the religiouso world though. People at my school who simply wear pentagrams, symbol for the wiccans, satanists, and just a spirtual/elemental symbol, get kind of abused at my school, one of the safest in the city. I don't personally care about the fighting ( I can always take bets $_$) but I can see that standing in the way. After all, if they'll make a whole school system wear uniforms to 'stop gang violence' then why not keep religion out to avoid complications. . .

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2002 7:53 pm 
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Enforced religion and prayer in school - I will start a shooting war before I allow that to happen in public schools.

Allowing Religion and prayer in school - Absolutely. Freedom of speech and religion is one of this countries greatest achievments. If they try to stop you from praying in school I should start a shooting war...

-Lifyre


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2002 11:14 pm 
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I agree that religious practices shouldn't be officially sanctioned in public schools.<p>
Another reason that I think religon shouldn't be santioned by the government is that public schools are financed with taxpayer dollars, and so are all other public displays in parks and in government buildings. Not all taxpayers share the same beliefs so why should they have to pay for schools that sanction ideas they disagree with? Why should a courtroom that is paid for with taxpayer dollars have a display of the Ten Commandments, like in Texas?

A while back there was a controversy in New York over a publicly funded art exhibit that had works that offended a lot of people. I believe one of them was of the Virgin Mary done in elephant dung. Why should people have to pay for art that offends them?<p>
I don't think people should be forced to pay for the distribution of ideas they oppose, it just isn't fair to them.

Well, thats my 2 cents worth...


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2002 4:09 am 
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Now get rid of the Ayn Rand quote and you miht actually be what we call a good n00b... as it is Huey would like to meet you...


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2002 6:21 am 
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you're getting somewhat towards thin ice there tho, 'people paying for things they don't like' etc

how about states with the death penalty, or buying cosmetics that are linked to animal testing? if you want you can avoid teh cosmetics, move out f the state, but if you don't you're subsidising the machine, it might not be some poo that looks like the BVM, but it's just as much paied for by you as it

nuclear weapons? arms exports? i pay for all of those through taxes on things i buy in the shops everyday, wether i like it or not.. if it's something as 'big' as religion have a referendum on it, then the majourity get there way (even if they're a minority, say the largest single voting group but stull only 30-40% of the pop) and you still have a load of people 'paying for stuff they don't like'

you can elect officials into office, but once they're there you can't tell them exactilly how to spend you tax money, that's not how democracy/republics work

go off to the other thread for an argument on what is a democracy/republic, lets not have every thread devolve into a semantic argument...

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2002 1:43 pm 
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Heh, I guess I have to quote myself...

Quote:
On 2002-10-21 23:14, The Goldstandard wrote:
I don't think people should be forced to pay for the distribution of ideas they oppose, it just isn't fair to them.


I wasn't talking about "things" they don't like, I was talking about ideas. The government has no business sanctioning some ideas over others. That is what the school prayer controversy is about.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2002 1:48 pm 
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Quote:
On 2002-10-22 04:09, Lifyre wrote:
Now get rid of the Ayn Rand quote and you miht actually be what we call a good n00b... as it is Huey would like to meet you...


You don't like his .sig? You should see what mine used to be. Unfourtunetly Kyhm's forum will not accept sigs this large.

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“Liberal bigots are the ones who trouble me most. I distrust the extremes. Scratch a conservative and you find someone who prefers the past over any future. Scratch a liberal and find a closet aristocrat. It’s true! Liberal governments always develop into aristocracies. The bureaucracies betray the true intent of people who form such governments. Right from the first, the little people who formed the governments which promised to equalize the social burdens found themselves suddenly in the hands of bureaucratic aristocracies. Of course, all bureaucracies follow this pattern, but what a hypocrisy to find this even under a communized banner.”

-The Stolen Journals
*As quoted from "God Emperor of Dune", By Frank Herbert*


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 02, 2002 10:30 pm 
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Quote:
Why should a courtroom that is paid for with taxpayer dollars have a display of the Ten Commandments, like in Texas?


because the 10 Commandments are this historical foundation of all western law.

They are the first written laws in history prohibiting purgery, theft, homicide and other activities which we accept to have 'always' been illegal.

Quote:
I wasn't talking about "things" they don't like, I was talking about ideas. The government has no business sanctioning some ideas over others. That is what the school prayer controversy is about.


The government DOES sanction some ideas over others, they have since the beginning. The ideas we sanction over others are written down in the declaration of independance, which was really more of a statement of ideals.

We are not an athoritatian state because the goverment has sactioned a free republic over a dictatorship.



Your point is valid, but your arguements are flawed

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 02, 2002 10:42 pm 
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because the 10 Commandments are this historical foundation of all western law.


written? written on what stone? oh, sorry, that's in the Ark of the Covenant now which is... umm.. don't know..

oral tradition i think you'll find, the frist <I>written</I> code of laws was in Babylonian times, they loved it, then everyone suddenly had written laws, written as opposed to spoken ones, ones that could be changed without people really knowing about them etc

the Ten Commandments aren't even Christian, they're Jewish... why christianity seems to have a monopoly over them whe they're just as valid to them as they are to Muslims for instance i don't know

religion = head over to the religion thread.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2002 2:33 am 
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Quote:
On 2002-11-02 21:42, ollie wrote:

written? written on what stone? oh, sorry, that's in the Ark of the Covenant now which is... umm.. don't know..


The Illuminati have it. Duh.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2002 10:44 am 
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oh yeah, i should have known, they do spend a lot of time following me, i should have guessed really...

<I>I'm so close to the truth...</I>

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2002 10:46 am 
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I blame the faggy british counterpart to the Illuminati.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2002 2:20 pm 
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the Ten commandments were written in the accounts of the events describing the stones.


And the Hebrews Predate the Babylonians

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2002 2:23 pm 
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It was my understanding that the Babalyonians were the first civilization and had the first written language...or was that Mesopatamia?


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2002 5:31 pm 
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It was the Mesopotamians. Sumer is the first known nation in the area; "Mesopotamian" is a term for Sumer and its related civilizations. What we refer to as the Babylonians later inhabited the same area.

Ancient Hebrew, as a language, does not predate Sumer, and the Ten Commandments certainly do not. If you buy the Old Testament (which is itself somewhat suspect), the Commandments were written during the height of the Egyptian civilization (specifically, the reign of Ramses II), around 3250 years ago. The Sumerian civilizations date back to at least 5000 BC/BCE, some 3750 years before the time of the Ten Commandments according to the Old Testament.

(EDIT: I was a bit off on the timing of the Ten Commandments. Fixed.)

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<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Pyromancer on 2002-11-03 16:35 ]</font>


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2002 8:46 pm 
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whoa, are you like a history teacher or sumthin?

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2002 8:49 pm 
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No. I'm just reasonably intelligent, have broad interests, and read a lot.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2002 9:09 pm 
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Quote:
On 2002-11-03 16:31, Pyromancer wrote:
It was the Mesopotamians. Sumer is the first known nation in the area; "Mesopotamian" is a term for Sumer and its related civilizations. What we refer to as the Babylonians later inhabited the same area.

Ancient Hebrew, as a language, does not predate Sumer, and the Ten Commandments certainly do not. If you buy the Old Testament (which is itself somewhat suspect), the Commandments were written during the height of the Egyptian civilization (specifically, the reign of Ramses II), around 3250 years ago. The Sumerian civilizations date back to at least 5000 BC/BCE, some 3750 years before the time of the Ten Commandments according to the Old Testament.


I stand corrected on the history, it appears I need to brush up on my ancient civs

Though I still maintain that the Ten Commandments, whether or not you buy into the story surronding them, have shaped the face of western law irrevocably, after being spread by the Roman Catholic church.

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