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PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2002 11:58 am 
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So I've heard (don't remember if it was on this board or not) that there is a proposal in Canada to decriminalize marijuana. I haven't been able to find much about this in recent news, so if people had any info about this it would be great if they shared it. It may be a moot point, but if this law is passed, what do you think the effect will be on US relations with Canada?
From http://www.jointogether.org:
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John Walters, director of the White House Office of National Drug Control Policy, criticized Canada for considering legalization of the drug.

"If you decriminalize the use of drugs, you are increasing the vector by which the disease of addiction is spread," said Walters. "I fear that even in Canada, our own ignorance has also contributed to an attitude that marijuana is not a dangerous, addictive substance that is particularly a vice for children. Again, the drug problem is not about 25-year-olds or 35-year-olds or 40-year-olds making maybe unwise decisions in the privacy of their own home about what they use for entertainment or fun. The drug problem is about children."


Will Canada become the stoner haven/heaven of the north? Do you think that the US is justified in denouncing Canada's proposal?

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2002 12:48 pm 
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Well, for starters, marijuana is not strongly addictive. There's plenty of evidence on this out there.

For another, I believe that anyone who uses "the children" as an argumentative gambit should be shot in the back of the head, execution-style, while kneeling over a shallow grave. It's the cheapest argumentative tactic known to man.

Oh, you want an argument, do you? Give me some time, I just woke up an hour and a half ago.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2002 1:19 pm 
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On 2002-10-22 12:48, Pyromancer wrote:
Well, for starters, marijuana is not strongly addictive. There's plenty of evidence on this out there.

For another, I believe that anyone who uses "the children" as an argumentative gambit should be shot in the back of the head, execution-style, while kneeling over a shallow grave. It's the cheapest argumentative tactic known to man.

Oh, you want an argument, do you? Give me some time, I just woke up an hour and a half ago.

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Personally I support legalization of all drugs, but that isn't really what this is about. I really hope Canada goes through with this, maybe some people over here will see it isn't such a bad idea.
The 'children' argument is bull, I agree, but I included it as an example of where the US stands on the issue. The problem I've run into is a lack of up-to-date information on the subject. The proposal was supposed to be voted on in the fall (soon I would assume), but I can't seem to find concrete info., just second-hand articles and the like.

EDIT:

I found some of the issues being discussed by the Canadian Senate on Illegal Drugs:

The main issues the Senate committee has been investigating are:

<b>1. Does marijuana use lead to using harder drugs, like cocaine and heroin?

2. Does marijuana create dependency?

3. What are the negative effects of marijuana on health?

4. Is marijuana use related to crime?

5. Are young people victims of marijuana?

6. Does marijuana impair driving?

7. What are the public policy options? </b>


My Opinions:

1. At least in my experience, no. Some people who smoke marijuana may eventually turn to harder drugs, but not becasue they smoke marijuana. The same argument could be made for alchohol or cigarettes if they were illegal. People start off breaking the law with something innocuous, and from then on the legality aspect has no meaning. Some people have even suggested that marijuana acts as a "strainer," catching people who would have otherwise gone on to use something worse. I dunno about that argument, but I for one have never felt the desire to take heroin or cocaine.

2. All drugs create a dependancy of some kind. Some, like heroin and nicotine, are more strongly physical (chemical) dependancies. Marijuana is primarily a mental dependancy. Withdrawal symptoms are mild. (Granted this varies from case to case, but for most people it is mild.)

3. Same as smoking any plant matter. Risk of cancer or other lung disease, along with risk of birth defects if you're pregnant.

4. Yeah, because it's illegal. Alcohol was the same way during prohibition. If you legalize the drug, you remove the criminal element.

5. Victims? I don't really understand this question. Are they referring to kids being harassed by drug dealers? Peer pressure? Regardless, I don't think anybody starts habitually smoking marijuana unless they want to.

6. There were studies done in the 1970s that concluded that marijuana did increase reaction time in intoxicated drivers. However, people drove slowly and more carefully when they were high, because driving at normal speeds seemed like speeding to them.

7. Well, decriminalization seems like a good first step. At the very least it should be legalized for medical purposes and for commercial hemp production. Eventually it would be great to see it legalized for recreational use as well, but that could take some time.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2002 1:52 pm 
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I hate the way people against drugs say that drug use is a "disease" rather than a choice. They think that the government has to protect people from the "disease" or soon everyone will be freakin pot heads.

As for the "we do it for the Children" excuse, from my experience the government here is the biggest child abuser in the world, just look at our public schools!


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2002 1:54 pm 
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All I can say is this:

A drunk person is less in control of themselves than a stoned person. That, and the stoned person is about 20x more comical to watch.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2002 2:21 pm 
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Hmm...if the tobacco companies marketed weed instead of tobacco...i'd live a lot longer and be much happier. hmmm....tell me why weed is illegal again?

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2002 2:26 pm 
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Quote:
On 2002-10-22 13:54, T-Bone Walker wrote:
All I can say is this:

A drunk person is less in control of themselves than a stoned person. That, and the stoned person is about 20x more comical to watch.

Drunk people also have a tendancy to be violent. Stoned people usually just want to chill and listen to music or something passive like that.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2002 2:41 pm 
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Big Tabacco (buzz word) have already started trademarking such dope related products, all marketed and promotionally ready to hit the streets the minuite it's legalised etc, money's money

got to watch the health effects tho, longer holding of smoke in the lungs = worse health effects, same with any product tho

legalise pot, criminalise stoners

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2002 3:31 pm 
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Chain smoking ciggarettes and getting stoned on the weekends, no matter how long you hold in the smoke, seem to be in completely different leagues as far as health is concerned.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2002 6:06 pm 
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Okay, first of all as far as I know the proposal in Canada is for decriminalization, rather than legalization. That just means they won't enforce the laws as much... and if they catch you with it it's a small fine.

I'm tired of hearing all this "gateway drug" bullshit. Since pot's been legal in Amsterdam the use of harder drugs has gone down. How do you explain that?

Pot was perfectly acceptable and legal throughout history until the 30's. Most of the founding fathers grew hemp, and there's evidence that Jefferson, Madison, and Monroe actually smoked the stuff. The only reason it's illegal now is because of an unfair smear campaign in the 30's ("Reefer Madness" was made during this era).

As for marijuana addiction, physically marijuana is less addictive than caffeine.

Marijuana is not only no worse than alchohol, it's better. As someone on this thread was saying before, unlike alchohol, pot doesn't cause people to become more aggressive.

Anyway, my point is, just let me smoke my fucking pot in peace.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2002 6:25 pm 
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Economically speaking, Pot is bad to legalize because doing so would seriously drive the prices down. It's fairly easy to grow pot - if it were legal, the prices would plummet to the point that pure, unlaced pot would be almost free. That would kick Big Tobacco's ass. Since pot can also be used as a pain reliever, that also kills off a lot of the profits for pain reliver drugs... you can go down the line. It's also nearly impossible to tax, since just about anyone can grow it.

In other words, full legalization of pot would be fucking awesome, but big government, big tobacco, and a certain number of bastards have too much of a financial interest in the economy (no drug dealer WANTS pot to be legalized because it would kill his profits, the major drug companies in the U.S. wouldn't be happy, Big Tobacco wouldn't be happy, the fucking P.C. liberals and the big businesses wouldn't be happy, the U.S. government wouldn't be happy - the only people that would be helped by the legalization of pot are the general population, so fuck them all.)

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2002 6:55 pm 
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Well said.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2002 7:01 pm 
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Having spent to much time when I was a little tike watchign saturday morning cartoons and seeing the 'dont do drugs' 'marijuana is bad' adds, I has a very negative opinion of the stuff for a while. Then i loosened up with it and hell, by now I thought I'd be just fine with it but when one a my friends started smoking the stuff I completely lost it. It's very unusual for me to get worked up about anything like that (anime and manga are different subjects altogether^^). I realized within an hour that I had no good reason to get worked up. Considering everything stated above its safer than alcohol and tabaco and cheaper to boot.

After some time spent thinking I got myself to understand (isn't that odd) that as long as you aren't addicted its not really bad and its everyone's choice to do with themselves. While I'm not teribly likely to go do the stuff I'm just dandy with it at this point.

On a sad sidenote I'm now seeing this person less and less and she's failing more and more. I'm really worried about her and hope she decides to stop or slow down before she could/does get addicted.

All in all its fine by me, eat, smoke, and be merry!

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2002 7:04 pm 
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Quote:
On 2002-10-22 15:31, T-Bone Walker wrote:
Chain smoking ciggarettes and getting stoned on the weekends, no matter how long you hold in the smoke, seem to be in completely different leagues as far as health is concerned.


toke for toke, the longer you hold it in, the worse it is for you

but yeah, partly due to th expence and availability reasons, partly due to non/less adictive properties etc, less dope is smoked than nicotine sticks, you can abuse any drug/substance, that's the thing the laws seem to ignore, the differance between use and abuse isn't entered into etc.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2002 11:47 am 
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Quote:
On 2002-10-22 19:04, ollie wrote:
Quote:
On 2002-10-22 15:31, T-Bone Walker wrote:
Chain smoking ciggarettes and getting stoned on the weekends, no matter how long you hold in the smoke, seem to be in completely different leagues as far as health is concerned.


toke for toke, the longer you hold it in, the worse it is for you

but yeah, partly due to th expence and availability reasons, partly due to non/less adictive properties etc, less dope is smoked than nicotine sticks, you can abuse any drug/substance, that's the thing the laws seem to ignore, the differance between use and abuse isn't entered into etc.



A single joint is much worse for you than a single cigarette. But only fools smoke as many joints as a tobacco smoker smokes cigarettes in a day. (I hope that made sense.) Smoking less often keeps one's THC tolerance down, which means you don't have to smoke as much weed to achieve the desired high.

BTW, do we have any dissenting opinions on this topic? Anyone think decriminalization and/or legalization is a bad thing?

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2002 11:58 am 
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My opinion? Legalizing pot is bad.

Why? Because the government suddenly gains a new outlet for taxation, and by God they'll use it. Plus, you legalize pot, where's it stop? Pot is almost universally recognized as a commonly-abused drug, similar to OxyContin and tobacco. In fact, the OxyContin fiasco is exactly why i don't think pot should be legalized. Because it weas legal and could be attained through LEGAL prescriptions for newly-registered reasons for its use, people figured out they could use the system to buck the system and get more of the drug.

Yes, I know marijuana is not addictive, per se, but like Kurt Cobain says in his diaries, it's not the physical dependence that makes you get addicted. It's the euphoria you get from it.

Believe me, there's enough people in America who lead shitty lives to make marijuana an even worse problem than it is already if it's legalized.

Public access to pot is one of the last things I ever want to see happen. The easier you make it for people to get something, the more people will want it. If marijuana's legalized (a damn big if at the moment) then people will get more of it. The reason US's pot problem's so low is cause it's harder to get.

(For a comparison, look at abortions. Before Roe v. Wade, there were none. Now because it's been legalized, there are at least 4 million a year.)

So I say it shouldn't be legalized, because it will cause more harm than good.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2002 12:01 pm 
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"(For a comparison, look at abortions. Before Roe v. Wade, there were none. Now because it's been legalized, there are at least 4 million a year.) "

erm... how many joints are sold in shops at the moment? none, because it's illegal.. legalises it and, you know, suddenly there'll be people buying it... without having to resort to sticking rusty coathangers up their.. oh, i mean going to their local dealer

know of any dealers, or illegal abortionists who keep records?

but anyway, personally i'm against all laws, so no, i can't argue for it being illegalised (or, technically, legalised... hmm...)

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2002 12:10 pm 
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I understand you think I'm not making a point.

When you're in Reading and a joint costs $20 for just one of 'em, you realize that legalization means company's can strat making them without the dealer for a middle man, and suddenly the price drops <i>way</i> lower, and now the druggies get prescriptions for the drugs they want, and the dealers go out of business, and so nobody can really police the amount of drugs given out . . .

I don't like that idea much.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2002 12:32 pm 
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Ah, at last! Finally someone with a different viewpoint.

Quote:
On 2002-10-23 11:58, Kitsune1527 wrote:
My opinion? Legalizing pot is bad.

Why? Because the government suddenly gains a new outlet for taxation, and by God they'll use it.


Ah, but if pot were legal, I for one would grow it myself. As would many, many others. If you can grow it for free, why buy it from someone else? The government would have no market. Sure, they could try and tax and regulate it like tobacco, but how does this add to <b>our</b> tax burden? (unless there is a tobacco tax that I am unaware of)You would have to pay taxes on the actual product, and if you didn't buy it then you would have nothing to worry about.

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Plus, you legalize pot, where's it stop? Pot is almost universally recognized as a commonly-abused drug, similar to OxyContin and tobacco. In fact, the OxyContin fiasco is exactly why i don't think pot should be legalized. Because it weas legal and could be attained through LEGAL prescriptions for newly-registered reasons for its use, people figured out they could use the system to buck the system and get more of the drug.


It's the abuse that is the problem, not the drug. The potential exists to abuse anything; money, sex, power, and drugs can all be addictive and self destructive. If you want to cure drug addiction, you need to focus on the addict, because outlawing drugs obviously doesn't work.

Quote:
Yes, I know marijuana is not addictive, per se, but like Kurt Cobain says in his diaries, it's not the physical dependence that makes you get addicted. It's the euphoria you get from it.

Anybody who tells you marijuana isn't addictive either hasn't smoked it or is lying to themselves. The euphoria is a part of it, but the substance itself is still addictive.

Quote:
Believe me, there's enough people in America who lead shitty lives to make marijuana an even worse problem than it is already if it's legalized.


People will abuse drugs whether or not they are legal. Legalizing marijuana would make it easier for people to get help if they are addicted.

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Public access to pot is one of the last things I ever want to see happen. The easier you make it for people to get something, the more people will want it. If marijuana's legalized (a damn big if at the moment) then people will get more of it. The reason US's pot problem's so low is cause it's harder to get.


I would argue that the public <b>already has access</b> to pot. I can go downtown and get an 1/8th oz. of weed within 30 minutes. It isn't legal, but it's sure as heck available.

According to http://www.drugwarfacts.org, marijuana is the most widely used illicit drug in the US. 36.9% of the population admits to having tried it. In the Netherlands, where pot is legal, only 15.6% of the population says they have tried pot. I would say we have a bigger 'pot problem' than they do. It would seem to me that keeping pot illegal is not improving the situation, while keeping our jails crowded with drug offenders who have harmed nobody but themselves. If you think that making pot legal will increase our taxes, think of how much you pay <b>right now</b> to keep all those drug users(approx. 1,500,000 new inmates each year) in jail?

Quote:
(For a comparison, look at abortions. Before Roe v. Wade, there were none. Now because it's been legalized, there are at least 4 million a year.)


There were no <b>legal</b> abortions, but that does not mean they did not happen. We can't ever know how many there were, because it was illegal, and no accurate census could be taken. The same goes for drug use today, the numbers are not accurate because not everybody admits to using drugs. So the real drug use may actually be higher than reported.

Quote:
So I say it shouldn't be legalized, because it will cause more harm than good.


That has yet to be seen. I may be wrong. You may be wrong. We can't know unless we try. Other countries have tried legalization, and so far the results have all been positive. But we don't live in other contries. We live in the US, where marijuana is illegal. Nothing ventured, nothing gained, I say.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2002 1:16 pm 
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On 2002-10-23 12:32, tychoseven wrote:
Anybody who tells you marijuana isn't addictive either hasn't smoked it or is lying to themselves. The euphoria is a part of it, but the substance itself is still addictive.


That's funny. I smoked it for eight months my freshman year of college, then stopped cold, for reasons which don't really have any bearing on this debate, with no cravings or noticable side effects. That doesn't seem to fit the definition of "addictive" to me; at the very most, the effects were mild enough that I didn't notice them, which amounts to the same thing.

Maybe I just have more willpower than everyone else, but considering my addiction to (for example) Internet message boards, I find that kind of unlikely.

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