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PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2002 1:36 am 
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On 2002-10-27 14:56, Kitsune1527 wrote:
Since EC's Saudi, I'd like to hear his opinion on the whole Quran "jihad" thing.


Do you want the Long rambling Opinion post, or the SHort' cut to the chase' type of thing?


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2002 8:26 am 
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The long version, if you will. Hell, rant if you want. I'm always up for hearing how a middle easterner thinks of the local religion.

Yes, that sounded insensitive and probably made me sound like an asshole. Deal.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2002 10:41 am 
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Not really a problem, either way. Spout off to your heart's content.

This is, after all, the place for rants. (Well, debates, but sometimes a debate gets started because of a rant, so . . .)

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2002 10:00 pm 
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I personally think a lot of people use religion as a scapegoat. I go to a Luthern school and I get picked on because how I look and I tell the bullies that isn't what their god wants, they're reaction, "well god'll forgive us anyway!". Also claiming to be a religion and doing against it is one of my serious pet peeves, I was molested by a Christian man and no one would say anything bad about him because he was a very religious man.
Religion in it's own isn't good or bad, it's just there. It's what people do to act on it that determines which one it is. If religion is just there and no one does anything about it, or acts upon it, then it's not really either or.
I believe that killing is wrong if it's in the name of religion. Unless the person that's killed did something truly wrong, then they don't deserve to die, mmkay?

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2002 10:19 pm 
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And now for something COMPLETLY different:

You know who I hate? Uncompromisingly hardcore atheists. You know, those people who don't believe in anything they can't see or touch and defend their position fervorusly. The ones who think anyone not like them is just a tool of religion.

If you think about it, atheism in itself is an appeal to ignorance (one of the fallacies of logic). "Since no one has ever proved the existence of god, god does not exist". Just because something has never been proved true does not mean that it is false.

I just don't understand people who think that something as complex as the universe could have simply fallen into place. If I dump out a box of dominoes on the table, are they going to set themselves up and knock themselves down? No.

(For the record, I follow deism. http://www.desim.org)

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2002 11:31 pm 
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...read my "the worst kind of religion is any kind of extremism/fundmentalism" statement...no one ever listens to a damn thing i say around these parts.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2002 2:55 am 
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On 2002-10-29 21:19, Vaergoth wrote:
If you think about it, atheism in itself is an appeal to ignorance (one of the fallacies of logic). "Since no one has ever proved the existence of god, god does not exist". Just because something has never been proved true does not mean that it is false.


Sorry, you're wrong. I'm not now, but I used to be a strong atheist, and I've never heard that argument used to justify gods' absolute nonexistence. At the best, it can be used to justify gods' probable nonexistence, using Occam's Razor; in order to make the argument that gods can't exist, you need to find something else. The problem of evil usually works, but it's a bit overused. Point is, as far as a strong atheist is concerned, gods' nonexistence <i>has</i> been proven; the arguments they use might not be acceptable to you, but I doubt the arguments of traditional faith-holding religious types would be acceptable to them, either.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2002 8:49 am 
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To paraphrase from Ollie:

'I don't care about the rules if I'm not playing your game'


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 31, 2002 4:28 pm 
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I'm not religious in anyway and get asked fairly often if I'm an atheist, I usually tell them no, I'm not religious-End of discussion.

Now, while not believing in God is atheism I just have no stance, I don't know what I believe.

Most of the atheists I've met have gone around yelling things like screw your god, or there is no god, satan-satan-satan, just as a way of antagonising people. The impression I have is pretty negaitve of someone without an open mind, it seems like only someone brave would place such faith in an unknown being like a god.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 31, 2002 4:41 pm 
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While i'm an atheist i also try to avoid arguments. There are too many religions out there for me to remember arguments against all of them. I'm just not a believer. As far as i can see there is no afterlife, and if there is thats sort of a bonus. Although by any standards i would probably end up in the equivalent of hell anyway.

The universe existed for 12 billion years before i was born. If i can last that long as non-existence i think i can last the rest of eternity.

I've forgotten who posted something like that but it kinda sumed up my belief.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 31, 2002 5:30 pm 
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Well,I'm also a firm believer in the power of infinity.It's a big universe out there and there is a good chance that any messed up shit you can think of has been done a hundred thousand times over already.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2002 3:48 am 
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On 2002-10-31 15:28, Kuizero wrote:
I'm not religious in anyway and get asked fairly often if I'm an atheist, I usually tell them no, I'm not religious-End of discussion.

Now, while not believing in God is atheism I just have no stance, I don't know what I believe.

Most of the atheists I've met have gone around yelling things like screw your god, or there is no god, satan-satan-satan, just as a way of antagonising people. The impression I have is pretty negaitve of someone without an open mind, it seems like only someone brave would place such faith in an unknown being like a god.


Well, I happen to disagree, Kuizero. There are plenty of atheists who are decent people. From what information I have gleaned from reading your posts you seem to be rather young, and maybe still in high school. The atheists you talk about sound very immature, which is common in adolecent teenagers. Most of the atheists around don't make a big deal about it because the truth is that a rejection of the concept of God is a dead end idea. It doesn't lead to any answers to questions about ethics and morality, politics and aesthetics, and any other fundamental question of existence. All it means is a rejection of the existence of God, and also, as in my case, a rejection of the supernatural. Some "Atheists" may still have some belief in supernatural things, except for God.

Because a rejection of God leaves no direction for what one <i>will</i> believe in, atheists have all sorts of philosophies for life, and their political views range the whole spectrum from far left to far right, and everything in between.

As for your assertion that one would have to be brave to believe in God, I think you are totally wrong. There is no objective evidence for the existence of God, and the very concept of God is itself contradictory. I rejected the concept of God because there is no evidence of his existence that I can either directly percieve or infer indirectly, the same way scientists infer the existence of atoms. My parents told me that God existed, but I could never find any evidence that satisfied me in proving his existence. Most atheists will never believe something unless you give them proof, as in my case. I needed proof, but I found none, so I became an atheist, something that my parents were very displeased about. Historically, to say that you <i>don't</i> believe in God took more courage than professing belief in God. In the Middle ages you got burned at the stake for it, today we are extremely better off, but I have heard horror stories of atheists being disowned by their families for their beliefs, which can be rather difficult for them. (especially considering the fact that most of these atheists didn't have a problem with their relatives believing in God...)

Even in my case, though my parents didn't punish me for my disbelief, I worry that many of the more religious members of my extended family might disown me if they found out. I don't want that to happen, since I happen to like many of them...


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2002 7:42 pm 
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Speaking as a current high school student, most high school students are dumbasses who haven't had to face the real world yet. Don't judge atheists based on what you've seen in high school.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2002 8:05 pm 
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speaking as a 3rd year degree student, don't listen to anyone, they're all idiots.

listen to yourself and no one else, can't go far wrong then.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2002 8:24 pm 
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Goldstandard, you're more talking about Agnosticism. An agnostic believes that until there is proof for a God, one cannot believe in that God.

I think anyway.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2002 8:28 pm 
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Most atheists I've met like to say they're fair, but usually they turn out to just be pricks anyway. Of course, these are the male atheists I speak of . . . my g/f happens to be an atheist, a source of constant discomfort to me, since I'm wondering why I let it happen, and why I don't seem to care . . .

Oh well. It's not the most important thing at the moment. In a couple of years, maybe, but right now I'm going to enjoy it.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 02, 2002 1:35 am 
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Agnosticism is the suspension of judgement. I have not done that, because the reason that I don't believe in God is the same reason I don't believe in Pink Elephants on Venus. For both there is no evidence for their existence, and for them to exist at all they would have to contradict all the natural laws of existence. That is why I don't believe in God and pink elephants on Venus. There are billions of things that one could say "might" exist, but unless you have some evidence your claim is nothing but an arbitrary one which any rational human being should dismiss outright.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 02, 2002 6:54 pm 
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Let's poke a hole in that argument - even though I'm an atheist.

If there is no god, and matter can neither be created nor destroyed - the whole conservation of energy thing and that - why are you alive? Where did all this matter come from? Bottom line, our current theories of relativity, our understanding of natural law - understanding of everything - do not even approach perfection. It's logically impossible to prove the nonexistence of everything based upon physical laws because nobody has even approached solving physics or anything else for that matter. You'd think the universe would just be big, and empty, and without that life thing... Where did the mass come from? (And don't say "Particle fountains" or "anti-matter" or I'll kick your ass. I hate people who buy "A brief history of time," put it on their shelves, and mouth off about black holes without ever having taken a college physics course.)

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 02, 2002 7:01 pm 
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Besides, can anyone prove the nonexistence of the number two? Or any number?

Can you prove that 2+2=56 without tossing mathematics on its head? And if you can prove it by destroying the basic building blocks of math, what have you achieved? Because without a simple basic ABSOLUTE, AXIOMATIC, concrete and ALWAYS-TRUE fact like it, mathematics and our entire system of measurement is thrown out the window.

2 must always equal 2. Such a simple fact that cannot be disproven. And if it cannot be disproven, how can you have the audacity to say you have disproven the existence of God?

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 02, 2002 7:07 pm 
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On 2002-11-02 18:01, Kitsune1527 wrote:
Besides, can anyone prove the nonexistence of the number two? Or any number?

Can you prove that 2+2=56 without tossing mathematics on its head? And if you can prove it by destroying the basic building blocks of math, what have you achieved? Because without a simple basic ABSOLUTE, AXIOMATIC, concrete and ALWAYS-TRUE fact like it, mathematics and our entire system of measurement is thrown out the window.

2 must always equal 2. Such a simple fact that cannot be disproven. And if it cannot be disproven, how can you have the audacity to say you have disproven the existence of God?



A better question is: how can you have the audacity to say you have proven the existence of God?

Keep in mind that, whenever arguing for the existence of an entity, the burden of proof lies on the person arguing for the entity's existence. Therefore, it is your job to prove your point beyond reasonable doubt, not mine.


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