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PostPosted: Sat Nov 02, 2002 11:22 pm 
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On 2002-11-02 17:54, veritron wrote:
Let's poke a hole in that argument - even though I'm an atheist.

If there is no god, and matter can neither be created nor destroyed - the whole conservation of energy thing and that - why are you alive? Where did all this matter come from? Bottom line, our current theories of relativity, our understanding of natural law - understanding of everything - do not even approach perfection. It's logically impossible to prove the nonexistence of everything based upon physical laws because nobody has even approached solving physics or anything else for that matter. You'd think the universe would just be big, and empty, and without that life thing... Where did the mass come from?


Ok, is it possible for there to be a natural law out there that proves God exists? Even if his existence contradicted one of the natural laws we <i>do</i> know? If matter cannot be created or destroyed, how did god create matter? I thought you said that matter couldn't be created or destroyed! BTW, that statement you made about matter happens to be a natural law of the universe...

I like it when my opponents help me refute them. :grin:

I don't know why people will say that matter cannot be created or destroyed, and then turn around and ask where all the mass came from. It isn't logical at all. Like Icemonkey suggested, what makes you think the universe was created at all? If that was the case then the concept of god would be pointless.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 02, 2002 11:32 pm 
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Moat scientists today believe that an infinite number of universes exist. In most of these universes, no doubt, the laws of physics don't allow for the existence of life. However, ours does, and if it didn't there'd be no one here to notice it anyway.

hehe, actually, that is one of my favorite theorums of all time, that things are the way they are because if they werent, we wouldnt be here to ask why things are the way they are.

First read it in Hawking's book

but anyway, thats circular logic =P


Im not an experienced enough debater to refute that kind of loop of logic, so ill leave it to somone more hardcore than myself.

But heres an interesting brain-melter


One of the theories of Multiple universes is that there are new ones forming constantly in accordance with every possible location and energy state of every quanta.

Since we think and are sentient by the manipulation of matter and energy (carried by quanta), then our consciousnesses each exist in their own universe, and we are not really interacting, but you are simply perciving what happens in your consciousnesses universe.


Creepy, eh?

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 02, 2002 11:40 pm 
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Ok, is it possible for there to be a natural law out there that proves God exists? Even if his existence contradicted one of the natural laws we <i>do</i> know? If matter cannot be created or destroyed, how did god create matter? I thought you said that matter couldn't be created or destroyed! BTW, that statement you made about matter happens to be a natural law of the universe...


No it isnt


Matter is constantly being destroyed


Where do you think that sunlight comes from pal? When Hydrogen nuclei combine to form Heilium, the Mass of the Helium is less massive than the sum of the Hydrogen atoms' masses.

The extra mass is destryed and released as energy






Plus you are overlooking the simple point that supposing God exists as we define him/her/it/whatever, God would have created the universe and the laws that it follows, so God would not be subject to the laws put on his/her/its own creation, in much the same way as man created the internet, but is not subject to its laws. One law of computers is that everything is fundementaly binary, but humans are fundementaly base 4 (4 combinations of peptides in DNA)

Also, computers must draw on electricity of some sort, while humans do not, so to a sentient computer, the very concept of a human would defy the laws of nature.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2002 2:31 am 
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No it isnt
Matter is constantly being destroyed
Where do you think that sunlight comes from pal? When Hydrogen nuclei combine to form Heilium, the Mass of the Helium is less massive than the sum of the Hydrogen atoms' masses.

The extra mass is destryed and released as energy


This debate is starting to bore me, so I'll just respond to this assertion.

It's true that matter can be converted into energy, and vice versa. However, the total amount of "stuff" in the universe remains constant; remember E=Mc^2? That works both ways.

That's according to general relativity. According to quantum mechanics, energy and matter are both functions of probability; energy and matter are constantly popping in and out of existence on very small scales. It is extremely improbable that anything larger than an electron will be created and stay in existence for very long, but there do not appear to be any absolute limits; one theory has it that the universe itself (rather, the particle that spawned the Big Bang) was spontaneously created by quantum fluctuations, as I think I've mentioned in another thread. It should be noted, however, that that is not a widely accepted theory.

But I digress.

Even according to quantum mechanics, the amount of total mass and energy in the universe fluctuates around a constant; the conservation laws still work, they just become functions of probability. All apparent violations take place at extremely small scales; a standard deviation of considerably less than one electron's mass means very little on the scale of a human.

Oh, and please invest in a decent spell checker.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2002 2:34 am 
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Matter is constantly being destroyed


That is bull. The matter is CONVERTED into energy. All matter is is a bundle of subatomic particles and the lighter mass is due to the energy being given off. That law says that matter cannot be destroyed, which means that it cannot disappear. That nuclear reaction is matter being <i>converted,</i> not destroyed, because it still exists, just in the form of energy.

As for your multiple universe idea, all I have to say is WHERE IS YOUR PROOF? I only know of one universe, this one, and I am not going to believe there are others unless you can give me a reason to think there are more.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2002 2:26 pm 
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lol, quite a stir I have created, my point is that when matter is converted to energy, it is destroyed in the conventional sense in that you cant ever get back that matter.

Yes, energy spontaneously converts to matter, but it converts only for several billionths of a second, and then returns to energy, so, since you cannot get back that matter, it is, for all practical purposes, destroyed.

Let me put it this way, buildings are not destroyed, they are merely converted by bombs to expanding clouds of ash, dust, miscellaneous gasses, and rubble. Yes it isn't destroyed, but its no longer a building, now is it?

But you miss my major point, which is that we are talking about an omnipotent being, which could does not need to heed the laws of nature, since by its very definition it could change them to allow its own existence.

I love how people argue the thing I included to be asinine, and ignore the entire point of the post.

And it was 1 AM, and I didn’t have time to spell check it.

One more thing, about asking for proof of multiple universes: I was just presenting an interesting thought to IcyMonkey, I don’t need your opinions on my tangent
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<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: B on 2002-11-03 13:36 ]</font>


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2002 5:22 pm 
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You're missing the point. Energy can be converted back into matter; it's not easy to do, but neither is converting matter to energy. Your building analogy is invalid in this context; the behavior of systems is completely different at subatomic level, which is the only place matter can be created or destroyed. We are not talking about practical purposes here, we are talking about laws of nature.

As to an omnipotent being being able to change the laws of nature, well, that's a point of contention in theological circles, or so I'm told. A better way to look at the problem (as I alluded to earlier) is to consider that a god(s), in order to have the relationship to reality that they are traditionally described as having, would have to exist outside of our reality and would therefore not be subject to its rules.

This argument isn't going anywhere but wrong. Let's stop debating it.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2002 7:50 pm 
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Agreed, I had a reply prepared, but I will not go into it

I thought it was an interesting debate anyway, even if both sides ended up taking it too personally

Such is the case with religious debates

Who’s up for foreign policy debates?

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2002 8:11 pm 
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Last word in the god debate:

as a side note, there is no god. Pyro wins.

I'll save you guys a whole bunch of trouble with the foreign policy thing.

You lose. I win. End of story.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2002 8:22 pm 
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Foreign policy debates are boring, domestic policy seems far more important to me, and I don't know enough about the subject to effectively prove a point. I prefer debating abstract philosophy, although anything as emotionally charged as religion generally turns into a flame-slinging match after the first thirty posts or so.

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<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Pyromancer on 2002-11-03 19:23 ]</font>


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2002 8:44 pm 
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On 2002-11-03 19:22, Pyromancer wrote:
Foreign policy debates are boring, domestic policy seems far more important to me, and I don't know enough about the subject to effectively prove a point. I prefer debating abstract philosophy, although anything as emotionally charged as religion generally turns into a flame-slinging match after the first thirty posts or so.

P-M

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<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Pyromancer on 2002-11-03 19:23 ]</font>


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2002 9:13 pm 
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as a side note, I knew I was BSing when I went into the matter -> energy thing, but I was hoping no one would call my bluff =)

Desperate times call for making shit up =)

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2002 3:22 am 
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On 2002-11-03 20:13, B wrote:
as a side note, I knew I was BSing when I went into the matter -> energy thing, but I was hoping no one would call my bluff =)

Desperate times call for making shit up =)



Next time, don't bullshit us. I don't debate with liars, and if you keep making stuff up nobody will take you seriously anymore. >-(

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: The Goldstandard on 2002-11-04 02:24 ]</font>


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2002 4:35 am 
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does the existence of god apply to Kit's question? personally, i think that anyone who believes that a god wants them to kill someone is stupid or crazy, whether God exists or not.

religion, and theology and philosophy are not evil, but 'evil' acts have been committed in the name of religion at least, and i';m sure some people use some philosophies to justify aberrant actions.

but it is the people doing wrong, not a God, or an Idea. the responsibility for bad actions, and the good ones, rests solely on the consciences of those committing them. that's what free will's all about.

that's what i think anyway.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2002 4:36 pm 
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Its a technical distinction, from one perspective, the matter can never be reclaimed, because to generate the energy needed to reclaim the matter, you would have to convert more matter to energy than you were going to reclaim, otherwise entropy wouldn’t allow it

It’s not flat out lying, it’s gambling on a technicality

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I will stop posting on dead debates
I will stop posting on dead debates
I will stop posting on dead debates
I will stop posting on dead debates
I will stop posting on dead debates
I will stop posting on dead debates
I will stop posting on dead debates
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2002 5:47 pm 
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On 2002-11-03 19:11, Kills Commies wrote:
Last word in the god debate:

as a side note, there is no god. Pyro wins.

I'll save you guys a whole bunch of trouble with the foreign policy thing.

You lose. I win. End of story.


::Reads and laughs, knowing what KC means . . .::

I'm with Mad on this one, after all . . . He and I probably wouldn't see eye to eye on much, but on bad actions being solely a human fault, I agree. (Well, really only some are human IMO, but . . . that's a topic for another time and another place.)

And please, if you're gonna do foreign policy, not in this thread. Those can get messy too, and I'd rather not make this thing any more heated than it has been.

The issue is dead now. Forgive my iniquities as I would forgive yours. (Besides, I started the thread, I can choose to bring up some more stuff if I want. I just don't.)

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2002 5:52 am 
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I once heard a boy saying that "The Bible is the greatest piece of propaganda in the world". I can't say whether I agree or not, but I think that Religion was first created as a means of explaining how and why things exist. For example, Christianity, God created the world in 6 days. We know this isn't true, judging by what science has told us, but we can't help but feel compelled to believe in such theories, glorifying one supreme being. A friend of mine commented that religion is really and excuse to do certain deeds, or to make us feel better. Therefore I'm agreeing with Madadric. We blame God when things don't go our way, and we pray to him to grant our wishes, but these things only come to us when we commit to them.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2002 6:06 am 
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For example, Christianity, God created the world in 6 days. We know this isn't true, judging by what science has told us


'science' doesn't exist, <I>scientific method</I> does, really, i don't want to have this argument today, people who use generic science as a proof are just as bad/misguided/deluded as those who use religion in those ways

and the God 6 days thing, that's Jewish, Christianity is modernisation/denomination (depending on your viewpoint) of it like Islam.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 28, 2003 2:32 pm 
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Religion is just another form of oppression!

Don’t do this. Do that make sure you are a good child of religion and you get to go to a better place.

This is saying that the plain were on isn't good enough but in Christianity god made the earth so isn’t this good enough for us. We are destroying it yes but the human race will inevitably

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 28, 2003 2:41 pm 
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Looks like we've got us a Necromancer!


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