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PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2002 1:09 am 
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Or, we can change it to be even <i>more</i> hospitable to human existence. Nature is always changing and evolving, why can't we make some changes too? They aren't always to our detriment, and often they can be good. Tired of wheat? We could genetically engineer new plants to make new foods. If we are allegedly so good at changing the environment for the worse, why don't we change it for the better, which means better for us?


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2002 10:55 am 
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On 2002-12-04 00:09, The Goldstandard wrote:
Or, we can change it to be even <i>more</i> hospitable to human existence. Nature is always changing and evolving, why can't we make some changes too? They aren't always to our detriment, and often they can be good. Tired of wheat? We could genetically engineer new plants to make new foods. If we are allegedly so good at changing the environment for the worse, why don't we change it for the better, which means better for us?


Genetic Engineering...I'd like to take the time to quote Jeff Goldblum: "The complete lack of humility for nature that's being displayed here is staggering."

Messing around with the building blocks of our planet's ecosystem is fun and all, but at this time we lack comprehension of the unintentional damage we can do to life as we know it. And maybe you don't advocate creating new species now, or anytime in the near future, but an undertaking like that requires knowledge we may never posess. The genetic engineering we do <b>now</b> has not been proven to be safe, nor do we know what unforseen side effects will emerge.

Personally I see Genetic Engineering as a very clear embodiment of stubborn eurocentric thought. Instead of adapting ourselves to our environment, like every other form of life, we insist on adapting our environment to suit us. Look at the way American Indians, Aboriginies, and countless other "primitive" tribes lived. They worked with nature, not against it. They took no more than they needed, and efficiently utilized what they took. We don't need to make new plants to survive, we just need to learn to respect and care for the planet, instead of strip-mining it to feed our collective egos.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2002 11:48 am 
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Thats feel-good poppycock. The entire advance of human civilization has either been to kill other people or to make ourselves more comforatable. Genetic engineering is doing what other chemicals and machines and such have been doing for a long time, but more direct.

We lost the moral authority to condemn it a long time ago.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2002 2:26 pm 
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Indeed, and I understand that genetic engineering will take us forward as a species. However, we are going about it in a way that could have disasterous consequences if we are not careful. And so far, not much attention has been given to concerns about possible adverse effects of genetic engineering. Simply because we <b>can</b> do something doesn't neccesarily mean it's a good idea <b>to</b> do it. As long as genetic engineering is going to happen, I would like to see some serious safety testing before genetically modified organisms are released into the wild. Currently, very little safety research is done. There are a host of problems with current GE plants, for example. I'm not going to list them all, because it isn't difficult to find the information. Then there's the issue with the fact that GE crops are owned by massive Bio-Tech corporations.

Any new organism they create, they can patent. They can even patent individual genes. That means they own it, and you have to pay them to get it. GM (genetically modified) plants can breed with non-GM plants of the same species, so the genetic modfication gets distributed throughtout the ecosystem. Let's say bio-company Y creates corn with their patented 'gene X.' Gene X corn is able to grow in harsh climates where corn normally has a difficult time growing. They sell it to farmers, and gene X corn breeds with normal corn. Now the offspring of these two will have gene X. See where this is going? Eventually gene X corn will push out weaker (natural) species, and company Y will have rights to the only corn you can grow. You have to pay them to use it, and you can't grow non-GM anymore. GM plants destroy biodiversity while raking in profits for bio-tech companies.

There are plans to add a 'terminator' gene to Monsanto's Starlink corn. What a terminator gene does is ensure that a GM crop will die after one season. This prevents the GM plant from infecting others with its manipulated genetic code. Sounds good, right? But what does that mean for people who grow the Starlink corn? They have to buy new seeds, <b>every season</b>. Massive profits come Monsanto's way.

When genetic modification of animals and humans becomes the norm, guess who will own the genes? Guess who we will have to pay for our genetic perfection? That's not for me.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2002 5:25 pm 
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You sir,are a sad person.By the way you put it nothing should have ever come into existence in the first place.You shouldn't just give up all hope because one day you are going to die.I know I won't live forever but I can try and do something even how infinitely small it is to keep Humanity going strong.And unlike you I think the Universe is infinite because first I doubt anyone or anything can really even have a concept of infinity.We just say it's going to end because we have no fucking clue on how the universe works.Sure,we can make a theory but really at every turn we discover something that throws everything we know out the window.


I didn't say that nothing should ever have come into existance in the first place. I just said that it's pointless to expend extra effort depriving oneself of the luxury of thoughtlessness just to attack some quixotic goal. And all I learned in biology class pretty much supports my belief that we are going to hit a population cealing eventually. Hell, it happens with all other species on this planet, why not us? And we've seen other stars that are just like ours do exactly what I've described - we're lucky that it's too small to go nova. I'm not referring to any fancy-pancy "particle fountains" or whatnot - I'm just using logical induction to predict what's going to happen based upon what has happened before. I also think that the belief that we have a purpose for being here, that we are somehow special, is a natural extension of romantic thought, that will frustrate us all to our graves. I don't claim to have the answers to everything - I'm just here to have as much fun as possible before I die, revel in the small things in the world. Unfortunately, my knowledge of the above depresses me just as much as it depressed you, and it does in fact make me a sad person. You know you're a sad person when you ask yourself the question "what's the point" at least twenty times a day. Right now, I exist solely to fuck with people's minds, and play Final Fantasy games, in which all the recent villians have pretty much the same complex I'm having now. Believe me, if you can suggest an alternative to what I believe now that's not dripping with worthless sentimentality I'd be happy - dealing with this crap whenever I think about what I want to do with the rest of my life has been driving me crazy recently.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2002 8:45 pm 
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First,caring for the enviroment will help make that population ceiling much higher.Yes the Sun will go nova at one point but lets not deal with that now.I will explain later in this reply.

Second,try and look at it this way.There is really no special purpose for humanity being here.Nobody put us here or made us for something.But Humanity by coming into existence already has it's own purpose that every lifeform has,Keep on living and advance the species.Now I know all these theories about the Sun,enviroment and the Universe can be depressing and you say whats the point?Well,If those things are true then they must be dealt with.But you can't do anything directly about these huge problems but what you can do is to help deal with todays problems and that in a small way helps in the long run.So what can you do exactly?Well,thats for you to decide.I'm thinking about going either into the military or intellgence services and try to make a difference in a direct way.

I don't know if this helps.I really haven't dealt much with philosophey.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 05, 2002 3:56 am 
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Personally I see Genetic Engineering as a very clear embodiment of stubborn eurocentric thought. Instead of adapting ourselves to our environment, like every other form of life, we insist on adapting our environment to suit us. Look at the way American Indians, Aboriginies, and countless other "primitive" tribes lived.


The primitives didn't live in harmony with their environment, they lived at the mercy of the environment. Life in a cave chewing on a half cooked piece of meat isn't better for human beings, living in a house with central air conditioning and a well made beef stew is. Humans have, over time, learned more and more about nature and how to control it to benefit us. As our technology improves over time, managing our environment to get the desired effects will only become easier. Becides, humans aren't in a real position to adapt themselves to their environment. We have no natural defences like other animals, so we HAVE to make tools, and the better the tools and shelters we make, the better we survive. Even the primitives knew that. We have to adapt our environment to ourselves, our survival depends on it. It is no coincidence that as our standard of living and technology has gone up, so has our lifespan and general health.

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Guess who we will have to pay for our genetic perfection? That's not for me.


Are you implying that you want genetic perfection for free? I hate freeloaders who want something for nothing, and this is all your second post was about, wanting the benefits of genetics for NOTHING!

When someone, or a company, invents or discovers a new gene that will be of benefit, what is his likely purpose? Will he do it "for the benefit of mankind?" Hell no! Altruism doesn't put food on the table, and doesn't buy the Mercedies Benzes either. If a guy discovers a new gene that saves peoples lives, and wants to make money off it, I say good for him! He earned it. That is why genes discovered by individuals or companies should be allowed to patent their discoveries, because that allows them to make money from their investment. (Genetic research ain't cheap!)

As for your alleged examples, all I have to say is that if I were a geneticist, letting my work get into everything willy nilly would be bad business. Becides, how would I be able to locate all the crossbread plants? By going on farmers property and taking samples? Thats trespassing. Nah, its cheaper and easier to just keep the genes to myself and only exchange them for money on the spot. Becides, according to law the Bio corporations can't charge farmers for accidentally crossbred plants, since the farmers didn't agree to it in the first place. If somebody benefits from something you did accidentally, you cannot make him pay for it because he never agreed to it in the first place. For a legal trade to occur, where both parties would have obligations on them, both sides have to agree to the trade. You cannot just give me your shoes and demand payment, if I didn't agree to it. Same goes for genes.

As for Monsanto getting the terminator gene, all I have to say is that that is a good idea. That would help eliminate the risk of crossbreeding and help protect their investment. Becides, if the new corn wasn't more profitable than the old corn and too expencive farmers wouldn't buy it. So Monsantos corn has to be more cost effective than the old fashioned natural corn. If farmers don't buy, Monsanto doesn't get money, and loses market share to those who sell cheaper corn.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: The Goldstandard on 2002-12-05 03:19 ]</font>

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: The Goldstandard on 2002-12-05 03:22 ]</font>


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 05, 2002 12:38 pm 
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On 2002-12-05 02:56, The Goldstandard wrote:

The primitives didn't live in harmony with their environment, they lived at the mercy of the environment. Life in a cave chewing on a half cooked piece of meat isn't better for human beings, living in a house with central air conditioning and a well made beef stew is.


None of the cultures I used as examples lived in caves or at uncooked meat. You don't even have to do real research to know this. Look, just go down to your local movie rental facility, and pick up <i>Dances with Wolves</i>. Kevin Kosner worked very closely with the Lakota/Sioux when he made this movie to ensure its accuracy. Despite the fact that is is a movie, it portrays Lakota life very well. They got along quite well without air conditioning or canned beef stew.

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Humans have, over time, learned more and more about nature and how to control it to benefit us. As our technology improves over time, managing our environment to get the desired effects will only become easier. Becides, humans aren't in a real position to adapt themselves to their environment. We have no natural defences like other animals, so we HAVE to make tools, and the better the tools and shelters we make, the better we survive. Even the primitives knew that. We have to adapt our environment to ourselves, our survival depends on it. It is no coincidence that as our standard of living and technology has gone up, so has our lifespan and general health.


HAHAHAHA!!!!

Hold on...did you just say that we have learned to control nature? We can't even reliably predict the weather. I'm not sure what you're trying to prove here.

There is a huge difference between using natural resources to provide comfort for oneself and their family unit and modifying the very structure of life to do the same thing. And the difference between us and the 'primitives' is that they only used what they needed. No more. THAT is living in harmony with nature. We live in a society based on consumerism, our economies rely on the steady acqisition of material possesions. Consequently, we must take more than we need from nature to fuel our lust for stuff.

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Are you implying that you want genetic perfection for free? I hate freeloaders who want something for nothing, and this is all your second post was about, wanting the benefits of genetics for NOTHING!


You misunderstand. I don't want genetic engineering <b>at all.</b> I think it's a potentially good idea that is being used in an immature and irresponsible manner. Perhaps I wasn't clear enough. The implications of a company having a license on living things is tremendous. Corporations (with a few exceptions, and not bio-tech ones) don't care about us, they only serve their stockholders and the bottom line. Perhaps you have read <i>Brave New World</i>. If you haven't, your lack of concern can be pardoned. If you have not, then I suggest that you pick up a copy sometime. It illustrates quite well what can happen when life becomes a <b>product</b>.

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When someone, or a company, invents or discovers a new gene that will be of benefit, what is his likely purpose? Will he do it "for the benefit of mankind?" Hell no! Altruism doesn't put food on the table, and doesn't buy the Mercedies Benzes either. If a guy discovers a new gene that saves peoples lives, and wants to make money off it, I say good for him! He earned it. That is why genes discovered by individuals or companies should be allowed to patent their discoveries, because that allows them to make money from their investment. (Genetic research ain't cheap!)


Genetic research is certainly not cheap, and that is precisely why corporations (and not individuals) are making the big discoveries. And this is the very problem, having massive genetic power in the hands of half a dozen corporations.

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As for your alleged examples, all I have to say is that if I were a geneticist, letting my work get into everything willy nilly would be bad business. Becides, how would I be able to locate all the crossbread plants? By going on farmers property and taking samples? Thats trespassing. Nah, its cheaper and easier to just keep the genes to myself and only exchange them for money on the spot. Becides, according to law the Bio corporations can't charge farmers for accidentally crossbred plants, since the farmers didn't agree to it in the first place. If somebody benefits from something you did accidentally, you cannot make him pay for it because he never agreed to it in the first place. For a legal trade to occur, where both parties would have obligations on them, both sides have to agree to the trade. You cannot just give me your shoes and demand payment, if I didn't agree to it. Same goes for genes.


Unless you specifically buy non-GM food, most of what you eat is genetically modified. C'mon, all the cool companies are doing it. Tell me what you had to eat today, I'll bet you at least 75% of it was GM.

You don't have to go to the plants to find out which plants have a certain gene. You can test a pop tart for genetic modification(and they are modded). Anything down the line will test positive for a gene if that gene was in any one of the product's ingredients.

As for farmers not agreeing to use GM food, that's too bad for them. We export thousands of tons of GM grain as hunger aid every year. Our GM food is already in Europe, Africa, Mexico, and Asia. Farmers don't get a choice, especially poor ones. And the hardier GM crops will naturally drive out the less hardy indigenous species.

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As for Monsanto getting the terminator gene, all I have to say is that that is a good idea. That would help eliminate the risk of crossbreeding and help protect their investment. Becides, if the new corn wasn't more profitable than the old corn and too expencive farmers wouldn't buy it. So Monsantos corn has to be more cost effective than the old fashioned natural corn. If farmers don't buy, Monsanto doesn't get money, and loses market share to those who sell cheaper corn.


Not all their products are getting the Terminator, just their Starlink corn. And the Monsanto corn is resistant to all sorts of crap and grows higher yields than normal corn. And natural corn is more expensive than GM corn. You ever go to a grocery store that sells organic food? It's really expensive. That's because it's cheaper to use pesticides and hormones to boost production. Commercial farmers are already hooked on GM crops.


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