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PostPosted: Fri Nov 29, 2002 2:24 am 
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http://www.vhemt.org

Nuff said.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 29, 2002 2:50 am 
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Heh,thats funny.But those idiots really are just a suicidal green group.Honestly,the way I feel about earth is that we have to make a effort to keep it clean enough for us to live in till we start colonizing space.Once mankind is firmly established in the solar system and space their really isn't a point to keeping earth clean.Maybe try and restore it and make it looks good since it was the cradle of Mankind.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 29, 2002 9:32 pm 
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Almost my point exactly - although they still do not answer the question "If we're all dead, then who exactly IS benefiting from voluntary extinction?"

The planet? Fuck the planet, let's go make some babies!

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 30, 2002 2:21 am 
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All those questions are answered on the site.

Look, I don't exactly agree with them, but at least try to get your facts straight so you don't make an ass of yourself, mkay?

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 30, 2002 3:48 am 
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I really don't see anything wrong with our statements.Even though we may be locusts who destroy everything we touch and keep moving on is bad,it's better then killing ourselves.
Veritron is right also,Fuck the planet.
Man is a lifeform and all life has one deep underlying purpose,to continue the species.
If you go by what they say and man is now a alien lifeform on earth why should we give a flying fuck about it?Lets keep it nice and clean so we can continue living and advancing but to kill ourselves for a alien planet?


I swear just reading that garbage makes me want to Nuke the entire earth and destroy all life on it for the sheer hell of it.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 30, 2002 9:21 pm 
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You misunderstand me:

They DID in fact answer the question. Yes, the planet and Bambi and the other animals that don't enjoy raping human beings would benefit if we killed ourselves off. Then again, why the hell would we care? We're dead, remember?

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 01, 2002 1:43 pm 
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Being a liberal, and all, I still must concur. They assume that all the animals will benefit from human extinction, when in fact the individual deer is not any "happier". Humans being the only exception because we can comprehend our existence as a species (and yes, I know that's probably gonna get me flamed by some stupid ultra-tree-hugger), just because the fruit bat species is thriving as a statistic doesn't mean that the individual bat knows, or cares. Also, ironically, the animal-lovers forget that we are animals ourselves, and as such have no abstract "duty" to defend other species, or even other humans, excepting cases in which we benefit personally. It's not like the bacteria, the leeches, the mosquitos are looking out for us. Now, if that group gets gratification from knowing that they're saving the planet, then all the more power to them.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 01, 2002 2:14 pm 
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Why should we care about the environment? Well it seems to me that self interest is the best reason. If we go around fucking up the planet, sure, it hurts the cute little squirrels and birds, but what about us? Air pollution hurts us too. Toxic chemicals are just as poisonous to us as they are to the rest of the life on this planet. The planet sure as hell doesn't care what we do to it(unless you believe in the whole Gaia thing). If we fuck up the earth, we're the ones who will suffer. Who cares if the planet becomes a desolate, polluted wasteland? We do, because we can't go anywhere else (yet). It's our ass on the line. The planet will eventually recover from the damage that we do to it, unless we turn it into a barren desert world or something like that. Of course, if we survive long enough to colonize other worlds, we don't have to care about taking care of the earth. But right now we do, because what we do to the earth, we do to ourselves.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 01, 2002 5:35 pm 
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Precisely. I think everyone should agree on this, that, whether it's out of self-interest (my personal opinion) or out of love for animals (not my personal opinion, but that's okay), all non-suicidal/masochist humans have a decided interest in "saving the planet"

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 01, 2002 6:33 pm 
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Hmm... Self interest is good. I do disagree with the premise that after we learn to colonize other worlds that we will destroy the earths environment. That would absolutely kill earths tourist industry. The reason it is in our best self interest not to poison the air and water is because we live here, and after we start colonizing worlds people will still live here.

Also, I am against many environmentalists who have anti technology leanings. Technology is the solution, not the problem. For the ones who believe in voluntary extintion, all I have to say is "You first."


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 01, 2002 10:42 pm 
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Quote:
On 2002-12-01 17:33, The Goldstandard wrote:
Hmm... Self interest is good. I do disagree with the premise that after we learn to colonize other worlds that we will destroy the earths environment. That would absolutely kill earths tourist industry. The reason it is in our best self interest not to poison the air and water is because we live here, and after we start colonizing worlds people will still live here.


Yeah, I don't think we should trash the place just because we have the ability to go someplace else. Then we'd be those aliens from <i>Independance Day</i>, and other civilizations would be making crappy movies about <b>us</b>.

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For the ones who believe in voluntary extintion, all I have to say is "You first."


Hehehe. I can see a bunch of them siting around, saying:

"After you."
"No, no, after <b>you</b>."
"No, I insist, you first."
"Ah, but I do not deserve such an honor. You are better suited to recieve it."
"No, it is you who are worthiest!"

Etc. Etc. Etc. Hehehe. Most humorous thing I've heard all week. Voluntary extinction? Ok, but I'll need a demonstration to help convince me...

EDIT: Stupid grammar.
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 01, 2002 10:42 pm 
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NOtwithstanding my religion, which I'm sur emost of you don't share, my reasons for protecting the environment boil down to two crude principles:

1) Don't hurt other people

2) Don't shit where you lie.

Let me expand on that a bit.
1) When you destroy "the environment" that translates as damage to others. As an individual, it likely doesn't ocme to much - but you add up a large group of individuals, it's very significant. Environmental damage can take many forms, but they all cause damage. Acid rain causes property damage, fertilizer runoff reduces fishing yields, overfishing... well, that REALLY reduces fishing yields, lead poisoning kills children... you get the picture. Sometimes it's direct, like a toxic water supply. Sometimes a region ends up becoming impoverished. Sometimes the results are very sudden and immediate, sometimes they take decades or even centuries to become apparent. Doesn't matter - as a society, we WILL pay. Guess that's not a compelling reason for a self-interested individual to care. But then, if you don't care about anyone else, why bother complaining when you get a smackdown from society - why should anyone else care, after all?
Point is, there are compelling reasons for society as a whole to care.

2) Don't shit where you lie. Crude, but I suppose it expresses it relatively well. Example: the water supply for the City of New York is provided by the natural runoff from the Catskill/Delaware basins. WIthout that large expanse of mostly undeveloped land, the city would need to spend billions fo dollars on a water filtration system. Instead, this water is available for free. My point? We are not separate from the environment, we are part of it, and we rely on it for more than we ever think about.

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The planet isn't in jeopardy. We are in jeopardy. We haven't got the power to destroy the planet -- or to save it. But we might have the power to save ourselves.
-- Michael Chrichton.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2002 12:13 am 
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Okay,I think we have all established several things and are just saying them over and over.
1.It's not a good idea to destroy the enviroment when we are stuck on earth.
2.The best way to tell if somebody is a complete and utter retard is if they support voluntary extinction.
3.It's a good idea to keep the places where we live clean and safe for the local enviroment.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2002 1:53 pm 
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I don't go out of my way to destroy things - I just really don't care about keeping things clean and orderly and all that other presentative crap. I don't spend any time at all considering the "environmental impact" of my actions, I eat meat, I pollute by driving my car, I waste electricity by leaving my computers on 24 hours a day, I use more water than required - etc. My actions are not enough to significantly worsen my environment by themselves - I doubt we would face any world crises in 70 years if everyone consumned the way I did. And that's the goal here - I want this goddamn planet to hold out until I die, and I really don't care about afterwards. I mean, why should I?

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2002 3:34 am 
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Veritron, you've missed my point.Or at least one of my points, anyway. Can we accept as a given that destroying the environment hurts people? Yes, the amount of damage done by an "individual" is negligible... well, kinda, sorta. Anyway, if you take the total amount of environmental damage done by a given society, and divide it by the number of members of said society, the result is a pretty small amount.*
However, it's still doing damage. It would be *convenient* if there were an individual to blame each time some massive amount of environmental damage occurs, but sadly that is not the case.
However, if the fact that you are hurting people, in your own small way, isn't enough to deter you, do consider:
you have chosen a selfish course; to ignore the harm you do to others. By what right do you ask others to care about you, then? So a law was passed that ups the price of gasoline by $.25 a gallon and now you cna't afford to take weekend trips anymore. So? Why should I care? Why should ANYONE care, if we're going to be selfish?

I think we should care. We have the ability to understand the consequences of our actions. That means we can take responsibility. Is it such a remarkable concept?

*: mind, doing such math is silly - we do not pollute as individuals any more than we all drink from our own private aquefiers, or breathe our own private air.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2002 12:39 pm 
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The earth is not some helpless maiden that humanity must constantly rescue from its own evilness. The earth has regulated itself back and forth normally, and I seriously doubt the wisdom of proclaiming that we're going to destroy our own habitat just by living.

The earth is very good at regulating itself. I doubt we're affecting it much at all.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2002 4:44 pm 
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If I didn't have enough money to pay an extra 25 cents a gallon for gas I wouldn't be driving an SUV, now, would I? And I don't need to take weekend trips either - don't those waste gas?

People usually don't plan out their actions. They splurge, they go on impulse, they do what comes natural to them. And the balance between how much everyone consumes and the environmental impact constantly changes with biology, etc. As long as people are shortsighted it is impossible to "save the planet." We will keep increasing in population until we reach the maximum limit sustainable by the earth unless some new killer disease comes and thins the population out. We will then STAY at the maximum sustainable limit for a long time - but not forever. We will run out of fossil fuels eventually, pollution and such will eventually destroy the ozone layer... The problem is that for every one of these catastophes we solve, a new one will take its place. Even if we could create a world where everything was in balance and nothing polluted, the sun will eventually reach a new stage and expand to the point where it envelops both Mercury and Venus, and will destroy all life on the planet Earth. No one can save the Earth, or humanity, for forever - we are all going to die, along with our species, and our planet, somehow or another. There's no point in thinking about what will happen after our deaths because the end result will be identical no matter what our actions are. Even if we leave the planet Earth and head off for new worlds, the Universe is not infinite, and the time of reckoning will come eventually.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2002 5:09 pm 
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You sir,are a sad person.By the way you put it nothing should have ever come into existence in the first place.You shouldn't just give up all hope because one day you are going to die.I know I won't live forever but I can try and do something even how infinitely small it is to keep Humanity going strong.And unlike you I think the Universe is infinite because first I doubt anyone or anything can really even have a concept of infinity.We just say it's going to end because we have no fucking clue on how the universe works.Sure,we can make a theory but really at every turn we discover something that throws everything we know out the window.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2002 6:38 pm 
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2002 8:59 pm 
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Quote:
On 2002-12-03 11:39, Kills Commies wrote:

The earth is very good at regulating itself. I doubt we're affecting it much at all.


You're ignoring the fact that the Earth often "regulates" itself by destroying whatever the source of the problem is, often via mass extinction.

Sure, the Earth will go on, but if we continue the way we're going now, humanity, and most likely a lot of the other species alive today, won't. It's in our evolutionary interest to preserve the environment as it is today, as much as possible.


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