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PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2002 7:50 pm 
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Honestly, why the hell should I?

"Oh, but the future generations..."

TO HELL WITH THAT ARGUMENT. What do you think is the worst way of harming the environment, bar none?

Having children.

After all, our entire species existed because a pair of demi-apes had sex. That's some environmental consqequences for sex there, you tree-huggers. Your ancestors caused the biggest environmental catastrophe on earth, and yet you parade around all high-and-mighty... Well, maybe that damn meteor hitting it and killing the dinosaurs was bad, and don't forget all that pollution from the volcanos...

So environmentalists are basically saying "Let's save the environment for our children - so they can fuck it up!" Bastards.

Not all environmentalists are like that. True, some like to have torrid sex with various species of animals. I dunno why the hell so many people are concerned about the welfare about the godforsaken beetles, though. I'd rather not see THAT kind of porn...

Basically, I'm going to drive my gas guzzling hypothetical sports car around and release various evil hydrocarbons into the air while munching on processed food sitting on real leather upholstery. To hell with my kids - if they're anything like me at all they'll be total assholes!

*Alright, these views are exaggerated for comic effect. I don't want flames calling me a moron - all you (hypothetical) tree-huggers can go flee to China and go fuck pandas for all I care. I really, seriously want to know the answer to this question*

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2002 7:57 pm 
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The best solution is to fuck your girlfriend in the back seat of your new SUV while pouring motor oil out the window and into a storm drain... but use protection.

That way, you won't have any kids to screw up the planet later on.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2002 8:22 pm 
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Well, it depends on what you believe. Most, "treehugger" have different reasons for caring about the environment. Yeah, there's the "let's save it for our children" line, and oters say those things but really only do it to make themselves feel better or to make themselves look better to other people.

Me, I recycle and all that, I do what I can to preserve what I can. For me, it's partly a spiritual thing, and partly becasue I just like it. I'd be pretty pissed off if one day I didn't have anywhere to go hiking and shit. I like the outdoors, I enjoy being able to go chill in what's left of the nice stuff nature has. And to further that enjoyment, I try to do what I can to keep it around.

I'm one of those that follow the idea that everything has a spirit of some sort, and all that jazz. So it's also along the lines of helping out a living thing to me. not just al lthe little individual critters and shit, but one large one. Yeah, I sound all tree hugger and shit don't I? I hate when that happens. Tree huggers give a bad impression. Berkely whiny bastards.

Well, those are my reasons, think what ya will.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2002 9:22 pm 
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the world, you see it? the world used to be full of unbreathable air, we'd die if we went back there, trees and plants loved it, hardcore CO2 and methane, yum, for us, death, for them, yum

climates changed, now plants are having a hard time, losers, we're having fun, breathing and all. how about ice ages? it's global warming now, yeah, but then? oooh, freezing

you see? climates changes without us, to think that humanity, a tiny insignificant issue in world geological history, can destroy all life, that's just arrogance, over playing our role in things, can we kill everything? we can hardly kill ourselves, let alone destroy the world

egotistica, that's all it is, egotistical environmentalists, thinking that humantiy is so great and effective that we can take out an entitre world.

losers.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2002 11:56 pm 
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On 2002-11-08 20:22, ollie wrote:
climates changed, now plants are having a hard time, losers, we're having fun, breathing and all. how about ice ages? it's global warming now, yeah, but then? oooh, freezing

you see? climates changes without us, to think that humanity, a tiny insignificant issue in world geological history, can destroy all life, that's just arrogance, over playing our role in things, can we kill everything? we can hardly kill ourselves, let alone destroy the world

egotistica, that's all it is, egotistical environmentalists, thinking that humantiy is so great and effective that we can take out an entitre world.

losers.




I agree that with you on that Ollie. Did you know that 17,000 scientists signed a pettition declaring that they didn't agree with global warming?! It turns out that the readings measuring temperature were surface readings done in Urban areas. Urban areas generate their own heat, and the cities have been generating more heat over the years. (More cars, more electicity used, etc.) The readings from weather balloons and satelites from a mile or so above the earth have shown that there has been very little change in temperature for the past few decades.

The thing I don't like about the enviro<i>mentals</i> is that many of the more rabid ones think that humans are some scourge that is unnatural and that all that is manmade is a detrement to the world.

Hello?! We evolved on this planet too, and we are a part of it just as much as the goddamn squirrels are. The only difference is that rather than adapt to the environment, we adapt the environment to ourselves. So, we have a choice about how we want to shape our environment. We want parks to hike in? We will set them aside. We want cars? We build a factory and make some cars. We want clean water? We build better water treatment systems. We want clean air? We make cleaner burning engines.

The thing is that if we want it, we can have it if we use our technology, but this is exactly what most environmentalists blame for the alleged devastation wrought by humanity. They are neo-luddites who will only bring more misery to this world, and accomplish nothing.

Well, thats my rant. Let the flames begin!


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 09, 2002 8:21 am 
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On 2002-11-08 22:56, The Goldstandard wrote:

Hello?! We evolved on this planet too, and we are a part of it just as much as the goddamn squirrels are. The only difference is that rather than adapt to the environment, we adapt the environment to ourselves. So, we have a choice about how we want to shape our environment. We want parks to hike in? We will set them aside. We want cars? We build a factory and make some cars. We want clean water? We build better water treatment systems. We want clean air? We make cleaner burning engines.


Just because we evolved on this planet doesn't mean we can't break it.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 09, 2002 9:05 am 
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does.

plants <I>'broke it'</I> by churning out too much oxygen, who's to say us hitting out a bit of CO2 and hydrocarbon gas won't just turn it back to that? there was a massive ice age recently that warmed up naturally for more than we could do unnaturally, if such a thing is possable

I'm quite down with the Gaia ideas, not teh hippy spiritual elements of mother earth, more that all changes in the earth's contition are acceptable and will just be countered/absorbed by the changing and evolving ecosystem

i still maintain (tho slightly less drunkenly this time) that the claim that we as a species can destroy all life is little more than an ego trip, we must be so superior to all other life if we can choose to either destroy, or save it this easily, really, we're not much better than shaven monkeys, get over it

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 09, 2002 2:25 pm 
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I would argue the "shaven monkeys" idea, but I agree with ollie on just about everything else he said.

We're not powerful enough to mess up an entire planet. Anyone who says so has some serious delusions of grandeur.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 09, 2002 6:01 pm 
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We do have the capability to destroy the planet. It's just I don't belive anyone in a position to do so is that crazy, or stupid.

As for careing for the environment, we have basicly created our own. Our city's and town's have become our habbitat, and we can protect ourselves from most any natural phenomenon while resideing within. It would be a whole lot nicer if we started to take better care of these facilities, so our own habbitaion would be more plesant. That in it's self would benifit the other eco systems, and in turn provide us with more of the things we need to survive.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2002 4:59 pm 
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Well, in theory we could destroy the planet, but the only thing capable would have to be all the nukes in the world put together.

Kaiser Dragon, you nailed it on the head with what you said about our cities. The thing is that we can make our own habitats, and it is up to us how hospitable the habitat is. It all depends on what we want, and then acting to make that a reality. The environmentalists don't want us to act, they want us to stay out of the business of shaping the environment, even if the shaping is positive and benefitial to us. I thought the main reason people cared about the environment was because of the fact that we live here, and in order for us to live here this planet must be habitable. Many of them, however, believe that nature has intrinsic value, which means that they have value independent of humans. However, the whole concept "Value" presupposes it being of value "to whom?" and "for what?" as Ayn Rand once said. Our environment has value because we live in it, not because it is valueable in and of itself.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2002 10:23 am 
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On 2002-11-10 15:59, The Goldstandard wrote:
Well, in theory we could destroy the planet, but the only thing capable would have to be all the nukes in the world put together.


and theneither a sparkof life will start it all over again, or it won't. we'll all be too dead to care. the only problem i can see with making our environment uninhabitable for humans (a monumental task. come on people, we can fuck things up faseter than this you aren't even trying!) is the generations that would have to put up with the crappyness of the planet being 'nearly uninhabitable' poor bastards.

but like i said, i'm definitely gonna be too dead to care by then.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2002 12:53 pm 
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humanity is the same as any other life form, watch a bacteria grow in a dish, it'll reproduce untill all of the suitable nutriant is expended then it starts to die off again, the population growth is stopped and everything goes back to the way it was before the bacteria was ever there

anyone else notice that birth rates are slowing down over the last few years? the population growth curve might just be flattening out.. it'll start going down just as fast as it went up soon...

then it'll be the next species turn

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2002 1:34 pm 
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Okay this is off topic but I want to ask something and hear some opionions.While Humans are really not much of a threat to earth's ecosystem,what would happen if we colonized a planet with it's own kind of ecosystem and kept up the same pollution practices?Could a ecosystem handle a total alien lifeform that just doesn't fit in anywhere and won't die out?

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2002 1:36 pm 
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I'm pretty sure we would need to take it on a case-by-case basis. There are just too many variables in that scenario to give a definite answer.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2002 1:45 pm 
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I have only seen one piece of truelly conclusive evidence that we as humans effect the environment significantly.

In the 3 days following 9/11/01 there were no planes in the skies over the United States. This resulted in no contrails in the sky and therefore less cloud cover. They found that while the daily average didn't change the average temperature range was roughly 3-4 degrees larger than was usual. This wasn't an isolated incident, it happened nation wide. And the 3-4 degrees only lasted while no planes were flying and got progressively disappeared as planes began to fly again. (the 3-4 degrees is also compared to the average temp range over the past ~30 years.)

Can we do anything to fix this? Yes. Anything Rational? no.

Thank You.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2002 10:17 pm 
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On 2002-11-13 12:34, Barghest wrote:
Okay this is off topic but I want to ask something and hear some opionions.While Humans are really not much of a threat to earth's ecosystem,what would happen if we colonized a planet with it's own kind of ecosystem and kept up the same pollution practices?Could a ecosystem handle a total alien lifeform that just doesn't fit in anywhere and won't die out?


interesting question! and this is how i'm guessing it would play out....

if we take another planet as an 'isolated ecosystem' then we can kinda-sorta apply it to similar mini-isolated ecosystems in the form of islands, like where Darwin worked on his theory of natural selection. take an ecosystem that has been isolated from outside influence for however many hundred or thousands of years, then introduce a new specis. the balance of this ecosystem will be out of whack for a while, and then changfe and adapt to include the new specis or kill it.

some other specis may or may not become extinct, (say, through new predators or diseases) others may now flourish in these abcences...but the cogs will inevitably keep on churning on...the system may change but it's gonna take a hell of a lot for the entire process to stop.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2002 10:58 pm 
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And then there is the possibility for human beings to evolve too.

I think some have speculated that if humans start colinizing other planets, and get somewhat isolated from each other, new species of humans could arise, as part of adaptations to things like gravity and other aspects of the planet that won't be so easy to overcome with technology. Who knows? We might even deliberately modify our own DNA to help adapt to new environments.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2002 12:23 pm 
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I think some have speculated that if humans start colinizing other planets, and get somewhat isolated from each other, new species of humans could arise, ..] [.. Who knows? We might even deliberately modify our own DNA to help adapt to new environments.


ah, a nice racist view of evolution, different skin tone? different height? you're a different species now boy, stay away from our women

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2002 4:07 pm 
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Technically, you're not a different species until you can't reproduce (and produce fertile offspring) with the species you came from. That's the classical definition of speciation, anyway; it's very fuzzy and not very quantifiable, but that's biology for you. Do yourselves a favor and stick with the hard sciences.

Just clearing that up...

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2002 2:27 am 
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Historically, in the past there were several varieties of humans, but all went extinct except for us. I was just speculating. Some scientists think that people who would be born and raised on Mars might grow taller than people normally would on earth, due to lower gravity.


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