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PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2003 1:17 am 
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This is a debate thread, not about gun control but about guns, I.E. Which are best.

Military, Hunting, Law Enforcement.

Open for opinions. State why you think your choices are best, argue the point, post pics of cool guns etc.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2003 2:01 am 
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Flame throwers. We don't have em, the army has them. I think we're fucked it we have to go up against the army. But think for just a second on what the fact that we have flame throwers means. Someone at one point had to say "Gee, I would like to set those people on fire over there, but I'm just not close enough to get the job done. If only I had something that would throw the flame on them." It might have ended there, but he happened to mention it to his friend who was good with tools. About a month later, he shows up and says "Hey, what a concept."
PFFFFFFFFFFFFFHHHHHHHHHHHHHH. <--flame sound
Of course the army head about it and wanted to buy some. "We have some people we would like to throw flame on. Give us about 500000 please, and paint them dark brown." - George Carlin.

My vote is military.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2003 8:21 am 
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Are we talking purely about guns ie little pieces of metal (or depleted uranium, hehe) projected at high velocitys by a small gunpowder charge? or can we include any tech here, like tasers, RPGs and... Flamethrowers, one of the the greatest weapons of all time. Though i would sure like a working MASER, Like a LASER but firing a concentrated beam of microwaves, causing evey hydrogen molecule in its path to rapidy change direction, the effect on living creatures is to boil them alive from the inside. Then Railguns, they just rock. If you can incluse all of these then it would have to be military.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2003 10:54 am 
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You see, if you invent them, then they are civilian. The military doesn't have them yet, so we have something to counter the massive power of the flamethrower.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2003 11:22 am 
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Flamethrowers have that "shoot them and the tank blows up" thing going on.

As for laughter's question, I suppose any weapon would be appropriate.

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We used to play for silver, Now we play for life.
One's for sport and one's for blood
At the point of a knife, Now the die is shaken
Now the die must fall,
There ain't a winner in this game
Who don't go home with all, Not with all...


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2003 3:19 pm 
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Mine's on the .50 Desert Eagle. It's a bit bulky, the stopping power is amazing.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2003 5:25 pm 
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How can you people discuss this? Don't you know that guns are involved in all cases of gun violence and are responsible for <font size=+1>ALL KNOWN GUN-RELATED DEATHS???</font>

Heh heh heh. More seriously now...

Military...hmm, lots of options here.

First there are "tech weapons" like the OICW:
Image
Laser rangefinder, computer controlled air-burst 20mm high-explosive shells (someone hiding behind a wall? Airburst a shell over their head. "Die plz") plus a standard 5.56mm assault rifle. Deadly, very deadly. It should also be lighter than a fully-tricked-out M16, which is always nice (weight = bad).

Second, there are your more basic weapons, designed to simply get a bullet from a cartridge into an enemy. These include the venerable M16 and newer weapons, such as the MP7:
Image
which is designed as a PDW (personal defense weapon, for vehicle crews etc.) but may also take up a position as an "offensive pistol" for special forces. Too small and light to be a main weapon, though.

Then there are your "Not yet" weapons; railguns, high-energy lasers (these are progressing nicely, though; one recently shot down an artillery shell in flight), sonics (nonlethal, intended for riot control etc.), and things of that type. These obviously have a lot of potential, but they simply aren't usable yet.

As for flamethrowers, I don't believe that the U.S. Army uses them any longer, but I couldn't find a source to prove or disprove my belief. As far as I can figure, flamethrowers aren't a very useful combat weapon; their primary use would be either in clearing bunkers and caves or as a psychological weapon; I could see a flamethrower being useful against, for example, the crowds of enemies the Rangers fought in Mogadishu, Somalia. Someone might not be afraid of death, but everyone in their right mind is afraid of burning. Still, a flamethrower is the kind of thing that would get very limited use.

For civilian use, I'd say you can't go wrong with a good shotgun.

Hunting, well, I don't hunt, so I can't really comment on this.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Kylaer on 2003-01-28 16:29 ]</font>


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2003 5:27 pm 
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The .50 AE round borders on pointless, so does the excessively massive Destert Eagle. If you want a carbine, get a carbine!!! There are plenty of good auto-loader carbines that produce better results in the field.

MP-5/10mm, AR15-A4 Carbine, HK53, God, tens of others, the Desert Eagle is cool, but just not practical.

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We used to play for silver, Now we play for life.
One's for sport and one's for blood
At the point of a knife, Now the die is shaken
Now the die must fall,
There ain't a winner in this game
Who don't go home with all, Not with all...


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2003 2:05 am 
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A .50 Desert Eagle doesnt have alot of stopping power, cause the bullet usually ends up tearing right through whoever you are shooting at. A .50 to the head will make it explode in the most messy and bloody way possible. A 9mm is lighter, more concealable, and can be more dangerous, since the bullet bounces around in their body.

Furthermore, the MP7 looks hideous compared to the MP5, my favorite semi-automatic.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2003 2:57 am 
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To be fair the right ammunition in 50AE (i.e. good hollow points) would deliver most of it's force into the soon to be exploded victim. Still, a .223 (5.56mm) will deliver more force and fracture beautifully for a much larger permanent wound cavity and much more shock/stopping power to the target with an effective range of 225 yards. Desert Eagle effective range a very generous 30 yards MAX.

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We used to play for silver, Now we play for life.
One's for sport and one's for blood
At the point of a knife, Now the die is shaken
Now the die must fall,
There ain't a winner in this game
Who don't go home with all, Not with all...


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2003 9:21 am 
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here *the* link to any and all picture of guns (and a few rockets, flamers etc) that you'll ever need
[url=http://]SecurityArms.com[/url]

for what it's worth, a box-mag automatic shotgun with a few types of ammo (shot, slug, prehaps AP or HE etc) is worth a lot, again it's a psychological weapon, big noise = big scare and the advantage of not having to aim too well is always good

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2003 11:05 am 
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Quote:
On 2003-01-29 01:05, CommiePinko wrote:
A .50 Desert Eagle doesnt have alot of stopping power, cause the bullet usually ends up tearing right through whoever you are shooting at. A .50 to the head will make it explode in the most messy and bloody way possible. A 9mm is lighter, more concealable, and can be more dangerous, since the bullet bounces around in their body.

Furthermore, the MP7 looks hideous compared to the MP5, my favorite semi-automatic.


go to a gun range. Bring a desert eagle. Aim that fucker.

There is a REASON it is called the 'hand cannon.' The thing isn't just useless because of its range and overpenetration without hollow points- its useless because its so goddamn hard to aim!


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2003 3:02 pm 
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The ultimate Desert Eagle! BIGGER AND STUPIDER THAN EVER!!!

http://www.securityarms.com/20010315/ga ... 00/600.htm

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We used to play for silver, Now we play for life.
One's for sport and one's for blood
At the point of a knife, Now the die is shaken
Now the die must fall,
There ain't a winner in this game
Who don't go home with all, Not with all...


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2003 5:38 pm 
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Damn, that gun looks SO impractical! I don't even see where you could fit a magazine for the Bullets! Some on, this isn't 150 years ago, when you had to load your gun after every shot!


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2003 6:51 pm 
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Ookay. . .Time for me to pitch in my two cents' worth.

The OICW. I dunno, it seems a bit overhyped to me. It weighs in at damn near 20 pounds, about as much as the old BAR. That, and the 5.56mm barrel is only 10 inches long. For comparison, the M16's barrel is twice that length. I can't speak from experience, but you'd probably get shit ballistics out of a 10 inch barrel for the 5.56mm round. As for that grenade launcher contraption, I say they should make it a seperate unit, rather than having a combined 5.56mm rifle with the grenade launcher. Just make it a specialized weapon, one per squad or so. A seperate 20mm magazine fed grenade launcher with all that computer-controlled stuff would work out quite nicely, whereas the current OICW seems too bulky and unwieldly from my point of view.

The MP7. From what I've read, the two new armor-piercing rounds, the 5.7x28mm from FN and the 4.6x30mm from H&K do a spectacular job of piercing body armor, but don't do much in the body after that. That, and they're too new to have established any sort of solid reputation. Time will tell, I suppose.

The Desert Eagle. Widely promoted through violent video games because it's supposedly the most powerful handgun ever. This is incorrect, the .454 Casull is more powerful. I personally laugh whenever I hear some Counterstrike junkie say, "They should add dual Deagles to CS." The Deagle has not been adopted by any military or police force, nor is it ever likely to. It was originally made for hunting moose and other game, not for antipersonnel use. Anyone who wants it just because it's the 'most powerful handgun ever' is probably just overcompensating for something.

Flamethrowers. In this day and age, with full automatic weapons everywhere, I wouldn't want to walk around in combat with a big canister of fuel anywhere on my person, thank you very much. About every war movie with flamethrowers in it that I've seen has shown the "walking human bomb" effect.

Ookay. . Now that I've covered all the stuff from the above posts, here's some of my own distorted opinions.

The only pistols I've ever fired are my dad's Ruger .22 and his Glock 17. I dunno why, but I don't like the Glock so much. It's kind of a pain to field strip, and it didn't seem too accurate.

I don't think I need to repeat my usual "AK-47's are god" thing. I do that enough as it is.

In my opinon, the sexiest firearm ever made is the H&K G36.
<img src="http://hkpro.com/image/G36RIFLE.jpg">
It's also reputed to be extremely reliable. Supposedly, in factory tests, a G36K fired over 25,000 rounds without cleaning, without jamming the entire time. That, and there's a red dot sight and a 3x scope integrated in the carry handle. Someday, I'm going to buy a SL-8 and heavily modify it until for all outward appearances it looks like just a semiauto G36. Someday. .

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2003 7:29 pm 
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could have sworn the Desert Eagle was made in Israel (by IMI) and adopted by tank commanders as their sidearm, then picked up on by the international big gun markets, hence the name (the desert bit) and it's size being somewhere between a normal pistol and a carbine, befitting a tank commander (a very important person in Israeli conventional warfare) and the fact that you spend all day driving around, thus not aving to really worry too much about the weight of the thing

i didnt' know the OICW had a 10" barrel, unless they're using re-designed 5.56mm ammo that'll never work, anything under a 14" barrel kills that ammo, carbines shorter than that are terrible ballisticly, but at short (ie carbine, not assualt rifle) ranges that would matter little

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2003 8:09 pm 
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"The Desert Eagle Pistol was conceived in 1979, when three people with an idea for creating a gas- operated, semi-automatic, magnum-caliber pistol founded Magnum Research, Inc. in St. Paul, Minnesota."

From here:
http://i.world.guns.ru/handguns/hg16-e.htm

Never made by IMI, never gave Israeli troops an edge over arab troops, etc, etc. There are so many myths about that pistol that just annoy the hell out of me.
If that pistol has seen any military/police use, I haven't heard of it. If I was in a tank, I'd rather take a Mini-Uzi or something like that.

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<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Rupert The Guerilla Rat on 2003-01-29 19:13 ]</font>


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2003 8:21 pm 
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US idea, yes, but designed and produced in Israel by IMI, Magnum research are the American company who imported them over the 80s and started producing parts and whole pieces from '92 onwards due to impending US gun import laws (if these actually did have any effect in the end i don't know)

last i heard they were back producing them in Israel again

the US has to justify large calibers by claiming they're for hunting as they're a little large for self defence etc, but in Israel they're a little less worried about such definitions, if it'll shoot a kid throwing a rock it's a good thing, full stop.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2003 2:01 am 
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Quick bit of trivia, how many military-adopted calibers can you name that start with 7.62?

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2003 2:17 am 
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There are really only three important ones:

7.62x39 Soviet

7.62x51 NATO (.308 Winchester)

7.62x54 Russian

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We used to play for silver, Now we play for life.
One's for sport and one's for blood
At the point of a knife, Now the die is shaken
Now the die must fall,
There ain't a winner in this game
Who don't go home with all, Not with all...


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