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 Post subject: Credit to Ez for the argument.
PostPosted: Mon Jul 14, 2003 8:25 am 
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...read it again, Kit. Then again if you have to. I already mentioned that. And if you hope to impress me with your tales of hearing black people use it as compliment, consider that most people have, as well.

Hell, I'm bored. Have a half-assed counter to that in addition to the one you ignored, anyways: Society defines it as bad. It doesn't matter what one or two (or even quite a few) people do, as long as society as a whole views it as unacceptable.

Not going to call a team the Michigan Man-Sluts, even if some people see it as a compliment, are you?


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 14, 2003 8:56 am 
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Just because society defines it as bad doesn't nessesarily make it bad.

As to your arguement- if that is a reason to stop the use of those words, there are plenty of other words that can be used in a very offensive as well as affectionate manner. In your idea, we become some weird-ass PC world. I think we can all agree that this idea is bad.

In addition, yes I would call a team the michigan man-sluts. Because thats a cool name.

-MiB

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 Post subject: Ph34r m1 cut-n-p4ste d3bating sk1LL5!
PostPosted: Mon Jul 14, 2003 11:08 am 
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Note: I originally wrote this for another thread, but I think it's relevant. (Although it would be rather hard to believe that "nigger half-breed" from a Klansman could be well-intentioned ;)


[Begin old text]
Wrin wrote:
Ero....shut up, just stfu. I for one have taken hell for my sexual preference already, and don't appreciate people discounting the fact that some people ARE just so sick of all the insults that they will take certain words in ANY context as insulting. Sorry if I'm being a little bitchy, but hopefully you'll see my point?

And hopefully you'll see the point that reading words as offensive regardless of context is just plain silly. Otherwise, I (being half-black) would take offense every time a rapper referred to his "niggas" (which I don't, no doubt to the dismay of people who believe in fundamentally taboo words, a concept that should have gone out with the idea that you could place a hex on somebody by muttering stuff [any magickians in the audience, stuff it!]). Instead, I realize that it is meant as a term of familiarity. Don't get me started on people being offended by the word 'niggardly'. "It sounds similar! I'm offended!" That's the sort of stupidity you get into by ignoring context.

As for your personal experience, I must say I'm surprised that a lesbian could be unpopular on this board. The posters were probably some 14-year-olds who don't yet realize that non-reproductive sex is irrelevant*. If you're talking about experiences outside of the board, you're merely reinforcing my point.

The word "fuck" (which I should note you used yourself just now, albeit slightly indirectly), in and of itself, isn't offensive (at least by my definition of "offensive", which is sane, and as such may be at odds with society). Saying "fuck you", however, implies that you wish someone harm, in a general sort of way (despite the literal interpretation, which is oddly enough somewhat opposite). The word itself is irrelevant, it is the intent that matters. Similarly, if I said "I think you and people like you should all disappear from the face of the Earth", and meant it, it would be a highly unpleasant thing to say, despite the fact that the individual words "you", "I", "disappear", "Earth", "think", "and", "people", "the", "face", "all", "from", "that", "like", and "should" carry no such connotation on their own. Context. I should perhaps note that I simply don't get offended, in the moral sense, by much of anything. Ethics, which involve actual harm to people (my personal definitions of convenience), are vastly more important. I do generally refrain from saying things directly to people that they would find offensive, out of politeness.

While we're on the general subject (Wandering Idiot: "Taking the off-topic threads off-topic"), I should mention that I really hate using the term "homophobic". Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the suffix -phobia denote "fear of"? Why, then is it used as the universal adjective for people who hate homosexuals? I suppose you could excuse it with the old psychological saw that the people most likely to hate gays are the ones most insecure about their own sexuality, but that's a bit of a cop-out. However comforting in may be for gays (I'm tired of typing out the more proper term, so you'll just have to understand that my context is not negative- hmm, I've probably used up far more time typing this explanatory note…) to think that all people who hate them are really afraid of them, I doubt that's always the case. I'm sure there are men who are perfectly secure in their sexuality who find that the thought of sex between two men makes them queasy, and hate gays for that reason alone. I myself conform with the first two attributes but not the last, not that I think much of it. The thought of eating liver makes me queasy, but I certainly don’t make any moral judgments about anyone who does, or consider them bad or evil. If someone wants to sleep with other men, as long as he doesn't describe his sexual exploits to me in great detail (and even then I'd be only mildly annoyed :), I couldn't honestly care less. I've always found the "gay culture" stuff a bit silly, though, since it seems rather limiting to define oneself simply by who one prefers to sleep with. Does sticking one's dick in another man's anus suddenly give you a different cultural outlook, along with a lisp and an affinity for fashion? Of course, I'm not gay, so I could be missing something. Perhaps you could enlighten me.


* To other people. Obviously, it may be invested with a great deal of emotional importance to the participants, but there is little reason for anyone else to be concerned. I've never understood people who claim that homosexuals are a detriment to society, since the net effect is exactly the same as if they simply stayed single all their lives, which is not usually considered evil. In fact better, if they adopt and are decent parents (the world is overcrowded as is, and there are plenty of kids needing adoption). The only reason for "society" to be interested at all in anyone's sexual practices is for the sake of possible children, which obviously isn't an issue with homosexuals.
[End old text]

As for the specific issue of mascots, it seems a bit touchy. I would think that, as long the teams are using them simply as a cultural icon and don't mean to imply anything about actual Native Americans, etc., it's not that big a deal. And I so want to be a member of the Michigan Man-Sluts...

EDIT: To clarify, it was the situation I was referring to as touchy, not anyone eho might take offense. Although really, given my opinion on the matter, it could work either way...

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- Robert Anton Wilson


Last edited by Wandering Idiot on Tue Jul 15, 2003 11:05 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jul 14, 2003 11:35 am 
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Read an article about this in a dentists' office in a sporst magazine, according to their polls, the vast majority of Aboriginal(not native, native means you are born there damnit!) Americans don't give a flying fuck, even about outright racial slurs like the Washington Redskins. The only people who do seem to car are tribal leaders and activists.

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We used to play for silver, Now we play for life.
One's for sport and one's for blood
At the point of a knife, Now the die is shaken
Now the die must fall,
There ain't a winner in this game
Who don't go home with all, Not with all...


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 Post subject: And you misplaced the apostrophe in "dentist's" and misspelled "sports", btw.
PostPosted: Mon Jul 14, 2003 1:43 pm 
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Clay_Allison wrote:
the vast majority of Aboriginal(not native, native means you are born there damnit!) Americans

*Gives Clay 2 Pedant Points*

Never thought of that, but I think you're right. Hooray for Pedantics! (We have to stick together, you know, otherwise everybody who's mad about our definition of the Millennium will gang up on us ;)

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Belief is the death of intelligence. As soon as one believes a doctrine of any sort, or assumes certitude, one stops thinking about that aspect of existence.
- Robert Anton Wilson


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