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PostPosted: Tue Apr 01, 2003 12:54 pm 
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Clay_Allison wrote:
Please! Abortion is the second most dangerous nonessential medical operation there is. (believe it or not the first is liposuction) Assuming there are no forseeable complications, giving birth would be safer.


Bullshit.

Quote:
Year Annual Number of Abortions
1973 744,600
1974 898,600
1975 1,034,200
1976 1,179,300
1977 1,316,700
1978 1,409,600
1979 1,497,700
1980 1,553,900
1981 1,577,300
1982 1,573,900
1983 1,575,000
1984 1,577,200
1985 1,588,600
1986 1,574,000
1987 1,559,100
1988 1,590,800
1989 1,566,900
1990 1,608,600
1991 1,556,500
1992 1,528,900
1993 1,500,000
1994 1,431,000
1995 1,363,690
1996 1,365,730
1997 1,365,730 Estimate
1998 1,365,730 Estimate

Total abortions since 1973 -- 38,010,378
(Based on numbers and estimates reported by the Alan Guttmacher Institute 1973-1996,with NRLC
estimates of 1,365,730 for 1997 and 1998. AGI estimates a possible 3% underreporting rate,
which is factored into the total.)

Source for statistics for 1973 through 1992: Stanley K. Henshaw, et al.,"Abortions Services in the United States, 1991 and 1992," Family Planning Perspectives, vol.26, no.3 (May/June 1994), p.101.

Deaths from Legal Abortions

Maternal deaths Year Deaths from No
Legal Abortions
1958-62 5
1963-67 4
1968-69 4
1970 36
1971 54
1972 24
1973 25
1974 26
1975 29
1976 11
1977 21
1978 9
1979 18
1980 9
1981 7
1982-84 34
1985-87 26


And this is from the pro-life website I linked earlier.

1973: 744,600 abortions with 25 deaths. 1 in 29784 died.
1981: 1,577,300 abortions with 7 deaths. 1 in 225328 died.

Sounds pretty damn dangerous to me.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 01, 2003 1:44 pm 
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*sighs* Statistics, statistics, statistics. They rarely prove anything. If I were to show you statistics in how many people die in plane crashes by decade, it'd look insane! Why do we even fly!? But then you look, and say "Oh....planes rarely crash, and there are lots of people on them. I see." Statistics all depend on who you're asking, or how many people you're asking, ect ect. They're never really reliable, as I've seen polls taken on the same subject come out radically different.

Also, Herbal, I can't tell if you're trying to be sarcastic or not in the last line. Not to nitpick, but I can't make an argument either way until I know yer serious or not :-D

And I agree with Rand. It's a woman's right to do with her body as she wills. If she doesn't want a baby, if she doesn't want her body drained by this fetus, then more power to her. However irresponsible the reasons a woman wants to abort, I'll support her right to choose.

I believe it was Voltaire (I may be wrong, it's been a while...sophomore year...oi) who said "I don't agree with your opinion, but I will defend your right to say it to the death." This applies, in a wierd way. So I'll say "I don't agree with your reasons of aborting, but I'll support your right to choose to the death."

My history teacher used to say that you can't legislate morality. The prohibition's one example. Look at the mess THAT made. However, abortion's kinda tricky when it comes to morality. Is it morally right to look at a woman, the half of the species that has, in the past, had little or no say as to what happens to her body, and tell her that she still can't make that choice? In a way, her right to choose is her release from reproductive slavery.

I say no, it's not right. We've progressed far enough in society that we don't have to rely on the woman so much to populate. We're already busting at the seams with people in parts of the world. Centuries ago, a woman wanting to have an abortion was just crazy. They needed people. Now, we don't really need all that many people anymore. So forcing a woman to follow through with her pregnancy, even though the child isn't wanted, is kinda silly.

But, like I said, it's a matter of choice. If she wants the baby, hurrah, congrats. If she doesn't want the baby, then that's her choice, and no one else's.

Ind the end, I suppose abortion's like a condiment or food.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 01, 2003 2:03 pm 
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statistics for being in the military look safe until you only look at front-line infantry units...early first trimester abortinons, including morning-after types probably account for none of those deaths, start moving into the later stages and the numbers start looking worse. Since most abortions are done early on, I'd say if you look at just late second through third it looks gruesome next to other non-essential surgeries.

That being the case I told you earlier that death isn't the only or most common problem. Suction-style abortions often do permanent damage to the uterus (from which the baby/fetus/whatever is being bodily torn) resulting in a number of other complications, including sterility.

Abortion clinics also probably have even worse infection control than hospitals. About 40% of people who go into hospitals come out with a disease or infection they didn't have before (no wonder, I'm sick, immune system is down, I'll go where they have a shitload of sick people!)

New data on AIDS suggests that current strains can live in open air up to 10 DAYS!!! Now lets guess what the relative likelyhood of people who were raped or weren't careful about sex having AIDS is! Most of the abortion clinics I've seen looked like shit (only three or four) like these little minor emergency clinics you see strewn around that look like a minor emergency themselves(I wouldn't go to one if I were you and could help it). I wouldn't want to bet my life that that a $10/hour worker, who probably isn't a registered nurse or she'd be working for a hospital, is going to bleach or steam all of the equipment thoroughly enough before the next patient, or just wash it off with water instead.

Fuck AIDS! My father is in the medical field and he damn near loses sleep ove hepatitis(forget which letter), It's basically incuabl and kills hundreds of thousands per year. It is easily transmittable and harder to kill with disinfectants.

Ryven wrote:
And I agree with Rand. It's a woman's right to do with her body as she wills. If she doesn't want a baby, if she doesn't want her body drained by this fetus, then more power to her. However irresponsible the reasons a woman wants to abort, I'll support her right to choose.

I believe it was Voltaire (I may be wrong, it's been a while...sophomore year...oi) who said "I don't agree with your opinion, but I will defend your right to say it to the death." This applies, in a wierd way. So I'll say "I don't agree with your reasons of aborting, but I'll support your right to choose to the death."

My history teacher used to say that you can't legislate morality. The prohibition's one example. Look at the mess THAT made. However, abortion's kinda tricky when it comes to morality. Is it morally right to look at a woman, the half of the species that has, in the past, had little or no say as to what happens to her body, and tell her that she still can't make that choice? In a way, her right to choose is her release from reproductive slavery.


Clay_Allison wrote:
Note: I am arguing right and wrong here, not legislations. Unlike the great masses of idiots in this country, I don't believe that laws should be made solely on the basis of right and wrong.

The American people have been BSed into believing that passing a law makes something go away. Don't like it, pass a law against it. Ask the average American what the declaration of independence is and those who have even HEARD of it will probably say that it freed America from the British, which is Bullshit, if it had freed America from the British WE WOULDN'T HAVE HAD A WAR OVER IT!!! It didn't do shit except guarantee that the signers would be hung as traitors if they lost! But the myth persists. So when I make a moral argument, people assume it's a legal argument as well.


I think that in my earlier post covered that I was not speaking from a standpoint of what laws ought to be made.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 01, 2003 2:17 pm 
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To pick up where Herbal Enema left off (he had to go to work):

I'll try to hold back on the statistics, but I found some rather eye-opening ones from actual, reliable, sources.

11 times as many women die from childbirth than from abortions. I came to this conclusion by doing the math myself, and finding sources that say the same.

So, abortion isn't as dangerous as the alternative.

Childbirth isn't as dangerous as it used to be, but abortion is quite safe in comparison to pregnancy and childbirth. The risk posed by abortion increases with the length of the pregnancy.

But, overall, less than 1% of all abortions result in a major complication.

Some statistics I found from the CDC (in case you are interested):

88% of abortions take place within the first 12 weeks of pregnancy.
56% take place within the first 8 weeks.
1.4% take place after 20 weeks.

And there is no evidence of childbearing problems among women who have had a vacuum aspiration abortion, the most common procedure, within the first 12 weeks of pregnancy.

http://www.agi-usa.org/pubs/fb_induced_abortion.html

Most who wait more than 15 weeks cite problems with finding, affording, or getting to abortion services for their delay in getting the abortion.

Seems legitimate when you consider that:

Quote:
The number of abortion providers declined by 11% between 1996 and 2000 (from 2,042 to 1,819). 87% of all U.S. counties lacked an abortion provider in 2000. These counties were home to 34% of all 15-44-year-old women.


This isn't a new trend, however. It's been happening for a while now. I don't know why the US government seems to equate family planning with abortion. The two things are entirely different. Yet, in their fervor to limit rights to abortion, they have cut off a great deal of funding for family planning.

Here's yet another interesting, and ironic, statistic one of my professors told us in class a few weeks ago:

Since coming into office, President Bush (a Pro-Life supporter) has significantly cut foreign aid for family planning. His actions have resulted in 2 million abortions that could, and would, have otherwise been prevented with the simple family planning resources. Resources that our government had been providing, before Bush's funding cuts.

EDIT: Grammar and spelling corrections


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 01, 2003 5:51 pm 
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I wasn't arguing against you, Clay. You and I have basically the same standpoints, so it'd be kinda silly. My argument was against all anti-abortion arguments period. :D Sorry if it seemed like it. Gimme a break, I was up all night with TSC moving some friends of ours out of their apartment and cleaning up the dump that is their mother's house, and nursing a monster headache. :(

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 01, 2003 7:06 pm 
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Yeah one thing that drastically lowered my opinion of Bush, and would have even if he was not already actively annoying me, was the fact that he cut money to companies and organizations that were offering moral and educational services to people considering abortions and recovering from.

I have absolutely no idea how that is supposed to discourage abortions considering the number of people that will go uneducated about contraceptives because of that.

That was my understanding of it atleast from a tiny article I read. Could someone else find some numbers on that and possibly the name of the act?

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 01, 2003 7:56 pm 
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Ryven wrote:
I wasn't arguing against you, Clay. You and I have basically the same standpoints, so it'd be kinda silly. My argument was against all anti-abortion arguments period. :D Sorry if it seemed like it. Gimme a break, I was up all night with TSC moving some friends of ours out of their apartment and cleaning up the dump that is their mother's house, and nursing a monster headache. :(


Heh, you'll have to bear with me a little too, :D I've had 1 hour's sleep in the past 36. :lol: :-? :( :cry: and I have to work for anoter 5 hours!!! :cry:

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 13, 2003 7:24 pm 
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I find that the deeper I get into my major (Enviromental Studies), the more pro-choice I become.

I think abortion is murder. Plain and simple. It is a choice I could never live with.

However, there is WAY too many people on this earth and the population is growing. We must do something to relieve the population. Family planning is the best choice. One idea is to limit people to having only two children or even a even better idea, have "child rights" Everyone gets a say .75 of a "child right". One full child right means you can have one kid. If two people get married they have 1.5 child right. You can have one kid and choice to either sell the other half or buy another half to have another kid. (got this idea from a book by Amy Thompson, "Though Alien Eyes").

However there really is no way to do this. Most people will not limit the number of children they can have without a law and most religious groups will never allow the goverment to make mandatory birth control the law.

Which leads us to abortion. Abortion is a quick painless way to limit population growth. The majority of the population do not see abortion as morally wrong (unlike releasing a plague or randomly killing people by other means) and the party in question doesn't will not start protests in the hopes that they will not get aborted. It's horrible that the one's with no voice will have to be sacrificed but what choice do we have.

I'm not saying making abortions mandatory. What I am saying is that before we can talk about making it illegal, we should find a solution to our current population problems. According to the number posted before, making abortions illegal will cause an increase in population (or cause other health complications, because of back alley abortions).

One day, there will not be enough food to feed the majority of people in the united states and fresh water will not be easily available in heavily populated areas. Technology has helped delay this from happening (more food grown per acre) already, but it is not keeping up. If there is some major breakthough in science or if religious groups relax thier opinions on birth control, then we can make abortions illegal.

I know I sound cynical, but then I am a very cynical person.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 13, 2003 8:01 pm 
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Good point Dai. In my opinion the most overlooked problem in the world today is overpopulation. People seem to think starvation is a big problem when in reality the people trying to solve starvation by creating more food are the ones who will, in the end, cause more deaths.

I assume you have read Daniel Quinn's Ishmael? If not you would certainly get a kick out of it.

Though I am all for releasing a rapidly spreading plague to eliminate the weaker individuals from the society. Ever seen 28 Days Later? :lol:


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 13, 2003 10:02 pm 
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No I haven't. When I pay my library fines I will have to check it out...

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 Post subject: I say we have post-birth abortions. People who bbq their own penis fall in to this category. We don't have much use for them...
PostPosted: Sun Jul 13, 2003 10:21 pm 
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Plain and simple, a fetus of a human is extremely hard to distinguish from the fetus of a turtle, fish, bird, or cat. Also, arguing about making abortions illegal is basically a moot point. Abortions will never be made illegal in the US as long as the current system stays intact. Sure, the right can put pressure on it, but there would be no way that it could possibly get through. Quite simply, the seperation of Church and State clause was to protect things like abortion that some religious groups think is wrong. Rather than being anti birth control and abortion, people should be anti sex and pro education. Only by fully informing everyone can truly rational decisions be made. Many religious groups preach for hours on the evils of abortions and birth control, and then in closing whisper for people to stay abstinent. Then again, thats smart of them. More people means more tithings and church followers...


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 Post subject: Remember kids, as long as they're still a fetus, we care.
PostPosted: Mon Jul 14, 2003 3:04 am 
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krylex wrote:
Also, arguing about making abortions illegal is basically a moot point. Abortions will never be made illegal in the US as long as the current system stays intact.

Not entirely. It is conceivable if we get another Clarence Thomas or two for Supreme Court Justice (and Bush has been looking at people like that, which frightens me and makes me realize why the dems are doing the whole filibuster thing. Bastard politicians [suppose I should include non-politician conservatives, too], complaining about the dems blocking moves to fill vacancies when they are responsible for said vacancies by blocking the dems when THEY were in power. And totally being bitches in the house. But I digress). And the US isn't the only country in question here.

DaiDreamer5 wrote:
I'm not saying making abortions mandatory.

Good. It'd be totally against the (supposed) idealogy of the pro-choice movement. As this whole abortion thing is a hotly debated moral dilemma many disagree on, the point is that if you don't think it is moral, you shouldn't have one. Condoms are also a moral dilemma for many catholics. Not as if we're going to outlaw condoms, now? Heck, if we're going to do that, let's outlaw adultry, too. Everyone agrees that's wrong, after all.

Perhaps, the point might be that one doesn't (or shouldn't, I should say) enforce your moral code on others, unless it involves something that effects you.


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 Post subject: Re: I say we have post-birth abortions. People who bbq their own penis fall in to this category. We don't have much use for them...
PostPosted: Mon Jul 14, 2003 8:47 am 
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krylex wrote:
Quite simply, the seperation of Church and State clause was to protect things like abortion that some religious groups think is wrong. Many religious groups preach for hours on the evils of abortions and birth control, and then in closing whisper for people to stay abstinent.


You are quite mistaken about that. The religious right feels that a fetus should be considered a human being from the moment of conception- which is by no means a purely religious arguement. In addition, the seperation of church and state only applies to the mixing of the two professions. I can see not doing something like, say, making a mandatory state church, but making abortions illegal is by no means mingling church and state.

Saying that is silly. Its not only religious people who are against abortions- I know plenty of athiests who are personally quite against abortions in general, and believe it morally wrong. Why? They just don't think there is a clear enough line to draw between "human" or "not human." Or some of them just think that a fetus is a human life, plain and simple.

And what the hell kind of church are you going to? I've gone to no less than 17 churches in my area, ALL OF THEM preach abstinance as the best form of birth control.

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 Post subject: Yes. I'm a dumbass.
PostPosted: Mon Jul 14, 2003 10:16 am 
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I don't go to church, but thats all I ever hear. Anyways, I was half asleep, so my last post makes me look like an ass. I need to wake up before posts. Anyways, I was meaning embryo, not fetus. Take a large group of vertabrate embryos at the same stage in development, and they are indistinguisable. I'll get some pictures up here when I get off work to show my point.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 14, 2003 11:42 am 
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One thing you can say about abstinence, it sure as hell works. Damned effective. 100% unless you conceive immaculately. And since that is a massive medical improbability (oddly, according to a science article I read, not impossible).

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 Post subject: Because I feel like being one-quarter of an asshole. ;-)
PostPosted: Mon Jul 14, 2003 12:31 pm 
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Clay_Allison wrote:
One thing you can say about abstinence, it sure as hell works. Damned effective. 100% unless you conceive immaculately.

[nitpick]Here, you seem to be referring to the conception of Jesus within the Virgin Mary through the intervention of the Holy Spirit (or maybe some other part of that Tripartite God Christians keep talking about; who knows?) since she did practice abstinence and had never known a man. However, the term "Immaculate Conception" actually refers to the conception of Mary herself (which occurred through rather more carnal means, presumably) as the aforementioned God intervened to allow hers to be the third and last human soul to come into being exempt from the stain of Original Sin, that she might be a fitting vessel for the arrival of His Son (or Himself?) Jesus Christ. (c.f. the New Advent online Catholic Encyclopedia entry for "Immaculate Conception" should you wish an even more draconically worded explanation)[/nitpick]

That is all.

::goes outside and shoots himself for being such a pedantic git::

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 14, 2003 12:55 pm 
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No, actually, I meant the hypothetical possibility that I read about in a science magazine that a woman could become pregnant by herself and clone herself like an orchid (and several other plants) can. Don't argue with me about it, I don't recall any of the specifics, for all I know the voices in my head playing a joke on my memory.

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At the point of a knife, Now the die is shaken
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 Post subject: Bah, what is this? Clarifications in Debate Club? Heresy!
PostPosted: Mon Jul 14, 2003 1:00 pm 
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::revives himself, bullet wounds closing like those on the T-1000 did, and wanders back in::

::reads latest post::

Ahh, parthenogenesis! Well, in that case, nevermind. ;-)

(Heh, I did recognize the reference to this in the latter part of your earlier post, I just like riffing on the immaculate conception bit whenever it comes up. 8) )

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Just throwing my view in, as mostly everything has already been said.

I believe that abortion is morally wrong, save in the case of rape, incest or sever medical complications (Remeber that story about the poor woman who has 12 fertilised eggs?)

Was sorely tempted to post the famous SomethingAwful Captian Coathanger and the Abortion Adventure pic, but meh.


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Forevergrey wrote:
I believe that abortion is morally wrong, save in the case of rape, incest or sever medical complications (Remeber that story about the poor woman who has 12 fertilised eggs?)


Wait...so the fetus is a human, until it becomes the child of a rape or incest victim, or if it's a decision between the mother's life and its?

Not that I agree with that, just pointing out one of the problems with the otherwise fairly sound argument that fetuses are humans. It works, except that the same people who argue that are willing to make exceptions for things that don't fit into their moral codes.

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