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PostPosted: Wed Mar 26, 2003 10:47 pm 
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It's ok, what do you think about aborting adults who are assholes, it would fix alot of the overpopulation prblems :D.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 26, 2003 10:53 pm 
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PTLIS wrote:
Fuck you, there is nothing fucking wrong with ovecrowding the system, tahts what its for Fucktard.
(sorry if i sound pissed but basically you're advocating a policy which would have prevented me from having an aquaintance of a GOOD man.


Sorry if I came off sounding like I wanted to get rid of the adoption system.

What I said (or, at least, meant to say) was: I really don't like abortion. I would much rather that all children who are currently aborted would be given a chance for life, instead of death, but as it stands, adoption is iffy, and really isn't equiped to handle every child who would be put up for adoption if abortion was stopped. I would much rather the child have it's life ended quickly and (presumably, I'm not an aborted fetus, so I don't know) painlessly, rather than having them live a slow death, until they are so worn down by an overcrowded system that can't handle the amount of children in it that they just run away and either live on the streets, or die on the streets.

I'm not saying that would happen to every child put up for adoption; I'm just saying that it would probably happen to entirely too many children put up for adoption if abortion was stopped.

---------

Once a system is in place (or expanded) that could, for sure, handle all of the children who are currently aborted, then yes, try to illegalize abortion. But until then, don't bitch that the band-aid isn't holding the wound closed. Bitch that they don't have a suture.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 27, 2003 12:01 am 
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Clay_Allison wrote:
It's ok, what do you think about aborting adults who are assholes, it would fix alot of the overpopulation prblems .


Hee hee ...heeee....yeah. Shit, there are a lot of adults who need to be aborted. I mean, fuck, if we could abort the stupid adults, think of the wonders it'd do for the gene pool....

But yeah, the idea sounds great :-D It reminds me of the movie Season 7: The Contenders. Fucked UP movie. But it was interesting to see them all try and survive.

And yes. Contraception good. Good contraception is nearly a 100 percent chance of stopping a potential abortion
:D

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 27, 2003 3:51 am 
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Clay_Allison wrote:
OK PTLIS, you are in Australia [Edit: sorry England] , you have no vested interest in someone knocking the AMERICAN adoption system.


That's not the point, if you look into the two sytems in any detail you'd see that they're pretty much the same; they have the same problems (ie older children being less likely to be adopted) and many of the same requirements for potential adoptee parents.

Eronarn wrote:
Younger children get adopted because they're more likely to adapt to their situations. The older you are, the more formed in preset ways you are.


That may be true but it isnt the most prominent reason;alot of the time the aprent who adopt do so because they cant have children of their own, hence they want to adobt a newborn because of the perception that they'll have the same bonds as if it were their own child.

Eronarn wrote:
[size=9][color=red]Personally, it's my opinion that if you are on welfare and have two children, and get pregnant with a third, after the birth of that one you should be sterilized. This isn't just for women, though- if you're a guy that's fathered three children, that's fucking enough. You won't suddenly get enough money to support the family. We need to face facts- these people will be on welfare for the rest of their lives. We need to stop new people from being born, then we can do a lot more to help those who have had a hard life- not just born into one, but had some misfortune that put them there.


I cant believe that anyone would do this kind of shit just to get money; afterall the cost would faroutweigh any benefiets you'd recieve (at least it does in England).


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PTLIS wrote:
Fuck you, there is nothing fucking wrong with ovecrowding the system, tahts what its for Fucktard.
(sorry if i sound pissed but basically you're advocating a policy which would have prevented me from having an aquaintance of a GOOD man.


Sorry if I came off sounding like I wanted to get rid of the adoption system.

What I said (or, at least, meant to say) was: I really don't like abortion. I would much rather that all children who are currently aborted would be given a chance for life, instead of death, but as it stands, adoption is iffy, and really isn't equiped to handle every child who would be put up for adoption if abortion was stopped. I would much rather the child have it's life ended quickly and (presumably, I'm not an aborted fetus, so I don't know) painlessly, rather than having them live a slow death, until they are so worn down by an overcrowded system that can't handle the amount of children in it that they just run away and either live on the streets, or die on the streets.


Im not actually against abortion, im just for adoption as a better alternative in alot of situations.And the death would only bepainless if done properly and not in 'backstreet clinics'(and even then it's debatable, we'll just never know) hence this part i disagree with:

Herbal Enema wrote:
Once a system is in place (or expanded) that could, for sure, handle all of the children who are currently aborted, then yes, try to illegalize abortion. But until then, don't bitch that the band-aid isn't holding the wound closed. Bitch that they don't have a suture.


Illegalising abortion just wouldnt work; it would just be done underground with barbaric practices liek we (in the UK) see in Ireland where the mostly Catholic population keep it illegal; You hear storys about coathangers being used and a guy just giving the woman a fucking hard punch to the stomache.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 27, 2003 10:28 am 
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I think we are still somehow on different pages. Let me put it into the simplest possible terms (no offense intended).

Me: I don't like abortion, I would rather we adopt.
PTLIS: Fuck you! With your ideas, my adopted friend wouldn't have been adopted!
Me: Er ... I would actually rather that they all be adopted, rather than aborted...
PTLIS: I'm not actually against abortion, I would just rather we adopt.
Me: er... that's exactly what I said... twice. I'm confused.

----------

Okay, now that that's out of the way.

Here is a link to a pro-life website Listing the number of abortions from 1973 - 1998. These numbers are probably exagerated, but that's okay. Even if we cut them in half, they still support my point.

http://www.prolife.ie/news/news-population-0004.html

In 1998, their study estimated that 1,365,730 abortions were performed. Cut that in half (I seriously doubt they were overestimating by 100%, but who cares), and we get 682,865 abortions.

--------

Here is a link to the National Center for Policy Analysis. I think they get money to look at various policies and compile statistics for them. I don't really know, it's just the first thing that popped up in Yahoo that fit what I was looking for, and it sounds official.

http://www.ncpa.org/pi/welfare/pd091101a.html

Basically I linked to a memo or press release or something about the adoption system. It says adoptions are on the rise.

Quote:
Nearly 50,000 foster children were adopted in fiscal 2000 -- up from 46,000 in 1999.


Now, I'm a bit shady on doing math in my head sometimes, but it seems to me that 682,865 abortions are alot more than 50,000 adoptions.

Also in the article:
Quote:
Roughly 134,000 children in foster care are free for adoption at present. Experts say that older children are the most difficult to place.


---------------------------

That is my point. Our system simply couldn't handle the number of children that would probably be put into the adoption system if they wern't aborted.

If we assume that the Pro-Life study overestimated the number of abortions by 100%, and that only 1/8 of the children aborted would be put up for adoption, then thats still more than One-and-a-Half times the number of children adopted in 2000.

I doubt the number of adoptions has gone down, it's probably gone up. But, then, the number of abortions has probably gone up alot faster.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 27, 2003 3:48 pm 
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Abortions are definitely needed, for the moment. Regardless of whether or not it is ethical, a quick death IS better than a slow one.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 28, 2003 4:36 am 
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Induced Abrotion Fact Sheet from the Alan Guttmacher Institute, which is closely related to Planned Parenthood.

In 2000, 1.31 million abortions took place, down from an estimated 1.36 million in 1996. From 1973 through 2000, more than 39 million legal abortions occurred.

Now, according to the above URL, 50% of pregnancies are "unintended", half of which are ended by abortion.

That means that in 50% of cases where two people have sex that results in conception, they are not utilizing a simple rubber, or taking a pill.

Here's AGI's info on contraceptive use.

They've got a fairly complicated chart that pretty much verifies the fact that people simply don't use contraception.

So abortion takes the place of contraception. I'd be perfectly happy if abortion was only used when contraception failed, or was impossible. We ought to focus on getting unintended pregnancies down to 2 or 3%. 50% is just ridiculous.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 28, 2003 10:35 am 
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I agree with that completely.

People should simply be using rubbers! They are cheap (well, alot cheaper than being pregnant, much less paying for the abortion or the cost of raising a child), and, when used properly, offer 97% + protection. Using other contraceptive methods in conjunction with rubbers is just gravey, lowering the potential for pregnancy much more.

And the "God" contraceptive simply doesn't work. (Oh god oh god I hope I don't get pregnant)

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 28, 2003 2:30 pm 
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Hell if taken properly, the Pill offers about 98% non-pregnancy, I used to be creeped out by the idea of condoms but I changed my mind. (they are latex now by the way, rubber was less than 50% effective and broke alot, leading to the bad rep condoms have.)

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 30, 2003 7:26 pm 
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They need to find a better, thinner, yet durable material than latex, methinks. There are a lot of people that are allergic to latex, and that could be bad. Hrm...

....
....hehehe, they could always use plastic wrap and rubber bands. It's like a condom and a cockring all in one! :lol:

*LEGALTALK* Ryven DOES know that this isn't feasable, but was merely used for the sake of levity. Thank you.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 31, 2003 8:17 am 
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those that are alergic use those lambskin ones that are supposed to be as good...the idea creeps me out though.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 31, 2003 9:01 am 
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Now, as few people here are not 'human life and it's full sanctity begins at conception' that's an alley that's irrelevant.

However... the more I think about abortion, the more pro-choice I get...basically, as I see it...

The mother doesn't owe the kid one damn thing.

Yeah, she (and the guy)caused it to be alive. So? Since when was 'granting someone life' something that indebted YOU to THEM? You've gotten a couple of months in a comfy womb that you WOULDN'T have gotten otherwise, and then the party ends and you'll have to leave the body, not ready yet? Tough shit. (obviously one WOULD try to save the unborn IF it was possible to get him out without killing him) It IS nice for a woman to decide that she wants to complete the pregnancy, and it's even NICER for the parents to decide to raise the kid. All these things are good, and I'm grateful to my parents for doing it for me, especially since, as i see it, they didn't HAVE to do it. But that's the thing with parenthood isn't it? It's mostly a one way street.

bah...thinking about such things makes me moody...

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 31, 2003 3:16 pm 
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That's just fine except you have to factor in that nothing that happens to the kid is his/her fault. In most cases, two selfish, careless people made him which he did not ask for, then decided to have the poor bastard(as he/she undoubtedly was) ripped to shreds by a suction machine.

Fucking wonderful. Heh, you sound like a friend of mine that says anyone should have the right to kill their kids until they are 18. Personally, I think peple DO owe their parents for giving them life. But parents are morally obligated to act responsibly. Anyone who has an abortion (outside of rape etc.) to me is a coward, an irresponsible person who won't face the consequences of their own actions (this goes double for men who run off or pressure their girlfriend into having an abortion.)

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 31, 2003 4:11 pm 
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That's just fine except you have to factor in that nothing that happens to the kid is his/her fault. In most cases, two selfish, careless people made him which he did not ask for, then decided to have the poor bastard(as he/she undoubtedly was) ripped to shreds by a suction machine.


He got life. If the peopel hadn't MADE that mistake he wouldn't EXIST. So he can hardly 'blame' them for the time he DID get. Having existed for 5 months (the argument when there is a 'you' to exist aside) and ending like that still beats never having existed at all.

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Fucking wonderful. Heh, you sound like a friend of mine that says anyone should have the right to kill their kids until they are 18.


Nope. Those kids are not directly physically draining on the mother. It's not about the killing of the children, it's about the body of the mother. If she wants that person out of her body, then she has every right to demand that, as she has the right to deny anyone acces to her body. If it comforts you I myself am a bit wtf? too by the conclusions I made but hey...

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Anyone who has an abortion (outside of rape etc.) to me is a coward, an irresponsible person who won't face the consequences of their own actions (this goes double for men who run off or pressure their girlfriend into having an abortion.)


*shrugs* you don't owe the unborn anything more then every other child that's starving? Genetics? they explain why we DO care, but not why we SHOULD care especially for our own offspring. Your 'fault'?: As I said, you already GAVE the unborn life, that doesn't mean you are allowed to take it, but it DOES mean the unborn has no right on your body.

Regarding males. As I see it, if the male, during the sex, was understood by both partners to assume that responsibality, he's got to stand by his wod. If it was a one night stand and BOTH persons knew it (or if the two agreed before sex that any child would be the woman's problem) then I think the guy has the perfect right not caring a fig, genetics or not. (prepares to get severely ass-raped)

Last time I expressed THAT oppinion on another forum I got in a strange debate of me and a libertarian VS another commie and a conservative.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 31, 2003 11:27 pm 
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I think the point is that the kid has no control over anything until he/she leaves the womb. As the parents decided (consciously or not, excluding rape) to have the child, they have a moral obligation to take care of it at least until birth, and, according to most law, for much longer than that (excluding adoption).

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 01, 2003 12:00 am 
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Rand wrote:
He got life. If the peopel hadn't MADE that mistake he wouldn't EXIST. So he can hardly 'blame' them for the time he DID get. Having existed for 5 months (the argument when there is a 'you' to exist aside) and ending like that still beats never having existed at all.


Oh great, brought into the world for a few months, have no idea what's going on, the WHAMMO! You're ripped to shreds by a damn suction machine!!! Thanks Mom! Fuck that. Existence is not a gift unless something makes it worthwhile. Creating a child, just to kill it, is an act of cruelty. The kid didn't get anything out of it, LIFE!!! Whoop-dee-shit! There have been days that I would have sold you mine for two hamburgers and a large coke.

P.S. Unum, nice counter to my new sig.

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Last edited by Clay_Allison on Tue Apr 01, 2003 2:40 am, edited 1 time in total.

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[quote=UnumPlurum] I think the point is that the kid has no control over anything until he/she leaves the womb. As the parents decided (consciously or not, excluding rape) to have the child, they have a moral obligation to take care of it at least until birth, and, according to most law, for much longer than that (excluding adoption). [/quote]

Once again, I have problems with this (especially the post-birth thing) The parents decide to give the kid life, anything else they give him is EXTRA on that, and not 'compensation' for it.

[quote=Clay Allison] Oh great, brought into the world for a few months, have no idea what's going on, the WHAMMO! You're ripped to shreds by a damn suction machine!!! Thanks Mom! Fuck that. Existence is not a gift unless something makes it worthwhile. Creating a child, just to kill it, is an act of cruelty. The kid didn't get anything out of it, LIFE!!! Whoop-dee-shit! There have been days that I would have sold you mine for two hamburgers and a large coke. [/quote]

As Drizzt says in BG, 'Tis your life to waste. If you don't like life, the second option is available most of the time. Death is what you will get eventually anyway, so any moment of life you CAN get is a gift. Yes, the unborn didn't get much out of life? Why should the parents be the one to make sure he does? As it is, an unwanted kid violates the mother's ownership of her own body (unwillingly of course). And when someone does that, I say you have the right to terminate that. The child has no more right on that woman's body then any other person.

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Say the kid is 12 and pissing you off, he isn't cooperating with teachers, he has ADD and asthma and keeps whining all the time about power ranger toys or somesuch shit. You are supposed to feed the little fucker for another 6 years and it's a financial drain because you want to get that expensive gym membership and get back into the shape you were in because you squeezed the little bastard out. So why not get a .357 Magnum and take him out in the back yard, tell him you are going to play a game, blindfold him, spin him around 3 times and shoot him right behind the ear. He'd never see it coming.

Seriusly, I believe in inalieanable rights. that damned kid wouldn't be there (again we are not takling about rape) if the woman hadn't been foolish. Why should someone else suffer and die because of their fucking stupidity? Everyone makes mistakes, adults pay for them responsibly. If kids don't deserve any help from their parents they deserve that the beings that spawned them first do do harm! I don't owe you anything. That doesn't mean I have the right to plant an axe in your head if you happen to be in my way! If I killed evereyone who pissed me off or were inconvnient you'd have to chang my last name to Khan! People may not owe it directly to anyone, but they have a responsibility to finish what they start and NOT RUN AWAY!!! The world is too full of cowards and idiots as it is. At least if you have an abortion, you'll prevent making one more.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 01, 2003 4:25 am 
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Say the kid is 12 and pissing you off, he isn't cooperating with teachers, he has ADD and asthma and keeps whining all the time about power ranger toys or somesuch shit. You are supposed to feed the little fucker for another 6 years and it's a financial drain because you want to get that expensive gym membership and get back into the shape you were in because you squeezed the little bastard out. So why not get a .357 Magnum and take him out in the back yard, tell him you are going to play a game, blindfold him, spin him around 3 times and shoot him right behind the ear. He'd never see it coming.


No, but what you CAN do is basically saying at birth (or at some point later, but obvious if you DO decide to take care of the child, that is not a choice you can put on and off on a whim) that you are not able or very simply do not WANT to give good parts of your life. It is a cliche with truth that parents are the most giving persons. Active word being 'give' as in CHOOSE to spend time and emotions on the child. It IS so wonderful and great BECAUSE the parents have no duty, no debt to the child. they choose to spend all their time on him/her. Or they don't. Because that is their right. Are YOU taking care of the child? No? Why should they do. They almready gave him life and after birthy the mother went through labour. Why should THEY be the ones that MUST make more sacrifices.

Quote:
Seriusly, I believe in inalieanable rights. that damned kid wouldn't be there (again we are not takling about rape) if the woman hadn't been foolish. Why should someone else suffer and die because of their fucking stupidity?


Why should the woman suffer and risk dying because the child needs her body to survive? As you said, the kid wouldn't LIVE without her, so it's not like she owns it/him/her anything. If it wasn't in her womb, it wouldn't be ANYWHERE. Can one demand YOU to go through the equivalent of nine months pregnancy because some guys needs it to survive?

Quote:
Everyone makes mistakes, adults pay for them responsibly. If kids don't deserve any help from their parents they deserve that the beings that spawned them first do do harm!


I don't quite get this sentence.

Quote:
I don't owe you anything. That doesn't mean I have the right to plant an axe in your head if you happen to be in my way! If I killed evereyone who pissed me off or were inconvnient you'd have to chang my last name to Khan!


You DO have the right to kill me if it would be the only way of having me (ab)use your body in the way a pregnancy does. You own your body, and I have no rights on it. If I do harm or endanger you, killing me would fall under the category self-defence.

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People may not owe it directly to anyone, but they have a responsibility to finish what they start and NOT RUN AWAY!!! The world is too full of cowards and idiots as it is. At least if you have an abortion, you'll prevent making one more.


It's their body. If a woman decides to change her mind over what to do with HER body, that is your nor my nor that fetus business. CBut the fetus will die if she decides she doesn't want to let it use her body? Too bad, it remains HER decision to make.

(note that I wasn't planning to have lots of unsafe sex or somesuch. To defend a right doesn't mean I have to plan USING it immediately. Just to make sure this doesn't get persona. And of course abortions are better done as friggen' early as possible, and contraceptives should be easily available.)

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 01, 2003 10:14 am 
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Why should the woman suffer and risk dying because the child needs her body to survive?


Please! Abortion is the second most dangerous nonessential medical operation there is. (believe it or not the first is liposuction) Assuming there are no forseeable complications, giving birth would be safer.

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I don't quite get this sentence.


Don't know how I have to spell it out for you...Not taking care of it after it is born is worse than ACTIVELY KILLING IT!!!

Quote:
You DO have the right to kill me if it would be the only way of having me (ab)use your body in the way a pregnancy does. You own your body, and I have no rights on it. If I do harm or endanger you, killing me would fall under the category self-defence.


Not if you had no choice and it was MY FAULT that you were doing it! I bring you to where I am and force you to drain me physically, then change my mind and blow you away with a shotgun! Who is the asshole here?

Quote:
It's their body. If a woman decides to change her mind over what to do with HER body, that is your nor my nor that fetus business. CBut the fetus will die if she decides she doesn't want to let it use her body? Too bad, it remains HER decision to make.


Just because you CAN make a decision doesn't make it a moral, responsible decision. It can very well be a selfish, childish, cowardly decision.


Quote:
(note that I wasn't planning to have lots of unsafe sex or somesuch. To defend a right doesn't mean I have to plan USING it immediately. Just to make sure this doesn't get persona. And of course abortions are better done as friggen' early as possible, and contraceptives should be easily available.)


Don't worry, I don't take these things personally. Note: I am arguing right and wrong here, not legislations. Unlike the great masses of idiots in this country, I don't believe that laws should be made solely on the basis of right and wrong.

The American people have been BSed into believing that passing a law makes something go away. Don't like it, pass a law against it. Ask the average American what the declaration of independence is and those who have even HEARD of it will probably say that it freed America from the British, which is Bullshit, if it had freed America from the British WE WOULDN'T HAVE HAD A WAR OVER IT!!! It didn't do shit except guarantee that the signers would be hung as traitors if they lost! But the myth persists. So when I make a moral argument, people assume it's a legal argument as well.

_________________
We used to play for silver, Now we play for life.
One's for sport and one's for blood
At the point of a knife, Now the die is shaken
Now the die must fall,
There ain't a winner in this game
Who don't go home with all, Not with all...


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