ZOMBIE FORUMS

I was having a joking debate with a friend, over the morality involved in prostitution. I said what was done between two consenting adults is nobody's bussiness, (except maybe a pimp, it is his literal bussiness). My friend cleverly retorted that the females were not always consenting, that circumstances forced them into prostitution.
'So how does arresting them help?' I inquired. He seemed to think that arresting them was a means to an end, to arresting the Johns. If there was no Johns, there would be no way they could become Janes. This is apperantly the logic behind many police forces. I'm confused by this logic. These people are working under the assumption that women are forced to go into prostitution for financial reasons, taking away the johns doesn't solve the womens problem, it makes it worse. If prostitution is a 'last resort'... then what happens when it is gone? What I don't understand is, exactly why women being 'forced' into prostitution is such a bad thing. It's the capitalist system, we all have to work to support ourselves, and for most of us, it means working jobs we hate. I hate my job. That is why i'm still going to school, and that is why i'm still handing out resumes, looking for beter employment. These poor women that are forced into prostitution are smart enough to flip burgers, let them do that. That is why legalizing prostetution is a great idea, it would become just like the phone sex industry. Have you ever heard of a women being forced into the phone sex industry? No. Why? Because it's completly legal, so men shop around for people that are good at it, and who is good at phone sex? Skilled/Motivated workers. With a legalization of prostetution, the same thing would occour, Johns would prefer to have sex with enthusiastic women, who enjoy they're job, and the women who don't, would see a decrease in bussiness. Which under the logic of arresting all the johns, is a good thing.

well, I can tell you point-blank that you're likely correct - no woman is forced into prostitution, at least here in Vegas.

I *can* tell you with absolute certainty, that once you're in the game, it's often without consent that girls are kept on the street. We have had several homicides in the last few years that are essentially pimps capping the girls that don't want to work for them anymore.

The root cause is not about legalized whoring. It's not about supply and demand, it's about what the girls (and boys, in big pro operations) that learn about stuff the madames and pimpsters don't want them to know.

As always in Vegas, it's about the dirty laundry that's in danger of being aired to the cops if the assets skip out on the business.

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-MrWarMage recalls that a dating service requires you to say "upside your head" a lot less.

If whoring was legal, the pimps would probably do alot less illegal stuff, simply because they would have to report the income, and the IRS would ride their ass over extra money with no sourse. The government would also get more money from the Sin tax (the same one on alchohol and tobacco).

Legalized prostitution, from what I've read, has been a runaway success in Nevada. More city income from taxes. Safer prostitutes (mandatory disease testing). And a loosening of the grip of organized crime on the prostitution industry.

The most common thing that "forces" women into prostitution is drugs. Most who go into it on the street level (the call-girl level is much different) are forced into it by an addiction to some illegal drug. Thus the term "crack whores". They often prefer to deal with "customers" directly for drugs, or get the drugs from the pimp, who is likely a dealer as well. That is part of what maintains the existence of the pimp on the street level.

First off- I did read all of this thread, not like the last time, sorry about that Clay. ^__^

BigMac, I agree with you. Prostitution as an occupation is not wrong. When people attack prostitution they cite the fact that many women have been forced into it for economic reasons. If this is the case, then economic problem should be addressed, rather than making what has often been a woman's desperate action of survival illegal.

The second objection people normally have is one of fear. Namely, what if this spreads into my neighbhorhood, near schools, in front of my kids etc... This fear is frankly, preposterous. First off, if prostitution were treated as a business rather than a plague, what reason would brothels have to operate in a residential or otherwise offensive area? If I were a customer, I wouldn't find the prospect of getting it on with kids nearby very appealing, nor would I want my sixty year old neighbor watching. If for nothing other than business reasons, brothels and what not would try to remain as unobtrusive as possible- simply to make their customers more at ease.

Finally, should it be legalized, prostitution would never be an all-consuming social problem simply because many people, maybe even most people, simply aren't interested in having sex with strangers

I'm not dead set against prostitution, but there are some coherent arguments against it you ought to be aware of.

There are also a lot of less coherent arguments that form a worldview you might not have been exposed to or which you might not take seriously. A lot of these issues come down to, "well, if we do this, will it work? Will we be better off as a society?" Clever arguments about consenting adults can't really address those issues. Society is the way it is because we tried all this, we tried hedonism, we tried allowing people to have sex whenever they wanted. It's all in the history books. And after generations, we came up with the formula we've got now, and it may not be perfect but it more or less works.

If it ain't broke... Anyway, a couple of responses:

If this is the case, then economic problem should be addressed, rather than making what has often been a woman's desperate action of survival illegal.

Do you really think poverty is something you can just legislate out of existence?

First off, if prostitution were treated as a business rather than a plague, what reason would brothels have to operate in a residential or otherwise offensive area?

Because they can make money and those kinds of people don't give a damn who they offend?

Finally, should it be legalized, prostitution would never be an all-consuming social problem simply because many people, maybe even most people, simply aren't interested in having sex with strangers

I'd say half the population isn't interested in having sex with strangers. Of course, that half is almost entirely female.

Well, when something is illegal of course the only people who will want to trade in it will be the dregs of society- thats why they're criminals. Back in the twenties when prohibition was in full swing the mob was, aside from the occaisional moonshiner, the only people willing to touch the booze trade- and look at how much violence etc is attributed to that group. I dont hear about many booze trafficking homicides today, why? Because the people involved in the brewing business today are not branded criminals, and thus they act like business men.
And of course you cant legislate poverty out of existence, the point I was trying to make was, if someone is drowning, you dont take the life-ring and throw it out the window. It is silly to think that keeping prostitution illegal will keep desperate people from attempting to make a living that way. Such laws must be enforced and that takes money, money that could probably be better spent on things like education, anything other than treating the symptom (prostitution) rather than the disease (poverty).

So are you one to think that we (as a species, society, or what-have you) have reached the end of evolution? That there is nothing more to change? Now that is arrogance. Gods, even if you believe in perfection, what on Earth makes you think we've achieved it?

Uhm, I'm male and I'm not interested in having sex with strangers and even less interested in paying for it.

I am a bit offended at the constant pervasive notion that any appropriate sized hole gives men the irresistable urge to put their dick in it!!!!



We who? damnit! Australia has legal prostitution in some places, so does Las Vegas!!! Some places legalize weed and some don't! There is no concensus so why should one opinion be the evolved one and the other obsolete, As far as I can see laws against prostitution are going the way of prohiition!

The main reason to legalize prostitution is to take it out of the hands of organized crime and regulate it, with disease teting, some assurances for safety etc.

Clay, your right on-

Trying to stop prostitution is like trying to catch rain in a seive, it just won't happen. As for wild hedonism, how would a legal, regulated and carefully run prostitution industry be hedonistic? In my experience, hedonism is simply a matter of degree, if these brothels spilled out into the streets they might cause problems- I just dont see that happening, it wouldn't make good business sense.

Waitamintue, what's wrong with hedonism, I'd like to know? Wild hedonism would perhaps be chaotic, but I don't see what's wrong with mild hedonism. I can't argue it very well, and I suspect there's no need to, but while the subjects up, let me suggest Stranger in a Strange Land, by... by... hell, by the guy who wrote Starship Troopers, I foget his name. Plenty of hedonism (and bigomy, but this is a special case) there, but in the end Michael has put together a fairly well-working little society, though he's torn apart by an ignorant mob not long after. I'm rambling, I'll shut up now.

EDIT- That's it! Heinlein! Thanks MiB, especially for the sarcasm.

Thank God.

Stranger in a Strange Land by Robert A Heinlein. An excellent book, and a good read by itself.

-MiB

I've read it as well, Heinlein is one of my favorites.


[edit]
Just to clarify, I dont see anything wrong with a little hedonism either- but nor would I want a total lack of responsibility, such things must be carefully balanced

Okay, this is totally out of order...



You quoted me just fine, but I think you may have been reading too quickly: "It may not be perfect but it more or less works."



You've got a post-hoc-ergo-propter-hoc fallacy there... besides, brewers have, throughout almost all of history, been respected pillars of the community. Think Sam Adams, Jesus Christ (a vinter), etc. I really don't think you can say the same about pimps and whores.



Deal with it, bro. I'm offended that other men beat their wives, fuck their daughters and are generally assholes, but they do and we can't just wish that away with righteous indignation. I'm not saying women are perfect (and spousal abuse is, alarmingly, headed towards gender-equity) rather I'm simply acknowledging a fact.



I'll add a few European countries to that list of 1st world countries that have legal Prostitution. That's not much of a snowball.

Also: regarding Prohibition: as I mentioned in this post, alchohol has long been accepted, whereas prostitution has generally been prohibited. (I'm making some pretty big generalizations here, so fire away...) I wish the Temperance movement really *was* history, but the fact is that MADD is *still* trying to get rid of the demon drink, trying to link it to hard drugs and pushing for ever lower BACs in drunk driving. Beware these fuckers. And of course there's the whole anti-smoking thing which has just turned into a gravy train. De-fucking-spicable.



To be clear: I'm not suggesting stopping it, you're suggesting legalizing it. I'm also not suggesting that legalized prostitution is the same thing as wild hedonism. I was talking about how society has experimented with different models. There were Greek cults (think Bacchus) that literally practiced hedonism. It's hard to hold down a full time job when you're munching shrooms and running around in ecstatic orgiastic rites. That's why those cults have basically died out. (And again, talking about society, not how individuals might live their lives... me, I'd rather go fishing and have a beer.)

Why can't we get the DEA to go after PeeWee soccer leagues and the Parent-Teacher-Association as "Gateway Mechanisms" to the bleeding-heart angry-mother "affliction"?

Drugs aren't hard, they're just "cumbersome"...
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-MrWarMage would like to thank our sponsor and their pocket Senator, Joseph "D. is for Dumbshit" Lieberman.

Please explain to me how my statement was a fallacy- that statement did not exclude the possibility of a brewer being a less than perfect citizen, nor did it state that all people in that trade were scum. The comparison I drew in the preceding text was between pimps and mobsters, and was in no way a statement about the morality of making alcohol.

P.S. I wrote the contents of the second Lucis Spei quote, ah well.

As to soccer leagues- no there's a social blight worth dealing with!

Sorry, my point was: "Do you think we shouldn't try new stuff?"



I didn't write that, man, that was apsuarawn.

All Godless Commie traitors tend to look and talk alike after a little while.

When you've bothered with one, you've bothered with them all. It was an honest mistake.

-MiB
Mmm...I'm sarcasim-tastic! And I can't spell, either.

Yeah... but so do black-suited, ray-ban wearing government/corperate goons. C'mon, there're even two similar ones in you're avatar. :P

Considering the subject matter, I couldn't resist-




As to being a commie, if it means I'm not a jingoistic nationalist- so be it