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 Post subject: The MP3 Situation: How do we create a win-win solution?
PostPosted: Sun May 11, 2003 11:09 am 
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Welcome to the inevitable thread about the MP3/File Sharing dillema.

First, let me tell you what direction I'd like this to go. I don't want this to become a debate about whether downloading MP3s is right or wrong. That is pointless.

My position, and the one I hope that most of you at least mariginaly agree with is that the current situation is lose-lose. Yes, MP3 piracy is morally wrong, however, it is also morally wrong to charge whatever price you wish for a CD because people have no other alternative for getting the music, which is essentially price fixing.

You're free to disagree with my point, but if you are diametricaly opposed to it, and you can't agree with it AT ALL, then you aren't going to get very far in this thread.

What I want to discuss is this: How do we create a system where the artists and producers are paid for their work, but at the same time, we don't have to pay 15-20 dollars for a CD which only has one or two songs we want? How do we create a compromise where everyone is happy?

Personally, I think that a large part of the problem comes from the fact that for each individual artist, the record label has no competition. They are the only label that can provide the music of that artist. I think that if we can somehow re-introduce competition into the industry, then other things will begin to fall into place.

What do you think?

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 Post subject: Re: The MP3 Situation: How do we create a win-win solution?
PostPosted: Sun May 11, 2003 12:04 pm 
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Vaergoth wrote:
Yes, MP3 piracy is morally wrong,


Let me stop you right there. I used to agree with you; however, then I realized that the whole idea of "intellectual property" is pretty stupid.

http://danny.oz.au/free-software/advocacy/against_IP.html wrote:
There is a strong case for opposing intellectual property. Among other things, it often retards innovation and exploits Third World peoples. Most of the usual arguments for intellectual property do not hold up under scrutiny. In particular, the metaphor of the marketplace of ideas provides no justification for ownership of ideas. The alternative to intellectual property is that intellectual products not be owned, as in the case of everyday language.


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The type of property that is familiar to most people is physical objects. People own clothes, cars, houses and land. But there has always been a big problem with owning ideas. Exclusive use or control of ideas or the way they are expressed doesn't make nearly as much sense as the ownership of physical objects.

Many physical objects can only be used by one person at a time. If one person wears a pair of shoes, no one else can wear them at the same time. (The person who wears them often owns them, but not always.) This is not true of intellectual property. Ideas can be copied over and over, but the person who had the original copy still has full use of it. Suppose you write a poem. Even if a million other people have copies and read the poem, you can still read the poem yourself. In other words, more than one person can use an idea - a poem, a mathematical formula, a tune, a letter - without reducing other people's use of the idea. Shoes and poems are fundamentally different in this respect.


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The idea behind patents is that the fundamentals of an invention are made public while the inventor for a limited time has the exclusive right to make, use or sell the invention. But there are quite a few cases in which patents have been used to suppress innovation. [2] Companies may take out a patent, or buy someone else's patent, in order to inhibit others from applying the ideas. From its beginning in 1875, the US company AT&T collected patents in order to ensure its monopoly on telephones. It slowed down the introduction of radio for some 20 years. In a similar fashion, General Electric used control of patents to retard the introduction of fluorescent lights, which were a threat to its sales of incandescent lights. Trade secrets are another way to suppress technological development. Trade secrets are protected by law but, unlike patents, do not have to be published openly. They can be overcome legitimately by independent development or reverse engineering.

Biological information can now be claimed as intellectual property. US courts have ruled that genetic sequences can be patented, even when the sequences are found "in nature," so long as some artificial means are involved in isolating them. This has led companies to race to take out patents on numerous genetic codes. In some cases, patents have been granted covering all transgenic forms of an entire species, such as soybeans or cotton, causing enormous controversy and sometimes reversals on appeal. One consequence is a severe inhibition on research by non-patent holders. Another consequence is that transnational corporations are patenting genetic materials found in Third World plants and animals, so that some Third World peoples actually have to pay to use seeds and other genetic materials that have been freely available to them for centuries.

More generally, intellectual property is one more way for rich countries to extract wealth from poor countries. Given the enormous exploitation of poor peoples built into the world trade system, it would only seem fair for ideas produced in rich countries to be provided at no cost to poor countries. Yet in the GATT negotiations, representatives of rich countries, especially the US, have insisted on strengthening intellectual property rights. [3] Surely there is no better indication that intellectual property is primarily of value to those who are already powerful and wealthy.

The potential financial returns from intellectual property are said to provide an incentive for individuals to create. In practice, though, most creators do not actually gain much benefit from intellectual property. Independent inventors are frequently ignored or exploited. When employees of corporations and governments have an idea worth protecting, it is usually copyrighted or patented by the organisation, not the employee. Since intellectual property can be sold, it is usually the rich and powerful who benefit. The rich and powerful, it should be noted, seldom contribute much intellectual labour to the creation of new ideas.

These problems - privatisation of government information, suppression of patents, ownership of genetic information and information not owned by the true creator - are symptoms of a deeper problem with the whole idea of intellectual property. Unlike goods, there are no physical obstacles to providing an abundance of ideas. (Indeed, the bigger problem may be an oversupply of ideas.) Intellectual property is an attempt to create an artificial scarcity in order to give rewards to a few at the expense of the many. Intellectual property aggravates inequality. It fosters competitiveness over information and ideas, whereas cooperation makes much more sense. In the words of Peter Drahos, researcher on intellectual property, "Intellectual property is a form of private sovereignty over a primary good - information." [4]


Every innovation always builds on previous innovations; in a way, artistic creation is simply stealing the ideas of others and combining them in a creative way. Thus, artists don't "own" their idea in any way, and in fact they owe the idea to the society which created them. Artists get their ideas and influences from the collective ideas circulating in a particular society; thus, they should give those ideas back to their society.


Last edited by IcyMonkey on Sun May 11, 2003 12:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun May 11, 2003 12:11 pm 
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Information wants to be free. Get over it, RIAA, MPAA, etc. al.

You will continue to make money off of live shows (for the MPAA, seeing stuff in the theater) and high-quality copies of stuff you put out (DVDs, SACDs, etc.). But if people are going to download it and not buy it, they wouldn't have bought it anyway. Same with copying CDs.

If people don't hate you with every ounce of their being, then they will support you. Heh.

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PostPosted: Sun May 11, 2003 12:13 pm 
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Did anyone happen to see the article about this in TIME (it was the one with SARS on the cover)?

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun May 11, 2003 12:21 pm 
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I agree with both of you. But the fact of the matter is that since we live in a capitalistic society, information will never be free. So we need to figure out how to create a solution that will make EVERYONE happy, including the artists and record labels.

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We're not mad. We're just argumentative. And we live in a state of fluctuating contempt for everything. - onion, when talking about herself and shoonra, actually describes the whole of kyhm forums.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun May 11, 2003 12:24 pm 
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Vaergoth wrote:
I agree with both of you. But the fact of the matter is that since we live in a capitalistic society, information will never be free. So we need to figure out how to create a solution that will make EVERYONE happy, including the artists and record labels.


[commierant]The artists are getting just as fucked by the copyright system as the consumers. The only real people profitting from all this are the corporations.

The fact is, corporations are stealing from us. I don't give a fuck if the rich stealing from the poor/middle class is inevitable in capitalist society, that doesn't make it any less wrong. I refuse to lay down quietly while I'm being raped by the rich and powerful.[/commierant]


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun May 11, 2003 12:37 pm 
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Sense Motive Check: 6 (roll) -2 (wis) +0 (skill) = 4 vs. DC 15, Failure.

Er... What are you trying to say?

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We're not mad. We're just argumentative. And we live in a state of fluctuating contempt for everything. - onion, when talking about herself and shoonra, actually describes the whole of kyhm forums.


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PostPosted: Sun May 11, 2003 12:43 pm 
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The only way that this situation could become win-win is if the artists themselves were able to deal directly with consumers. The RIAA and all of the record company's are to blame as to why there is a problem. The artists already make no money off of sales, as it is all going to the company, fattening their pockets. I've talked to artists before, and a good deal of them would rather be the ones directly selling to the consumers, making it where cds would cost dramatically less, the artist would make a profit, and everyone would be happy. I for one buy and download music. The majority of music I have on my computer, I have purchased at some point or another. Sometimes its the only way I can find certain songs and have them at the quality level I want...


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PostPosted: Sun May 11, 2003 1:00 pm 
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First off, Icy, where did the second two quotations come from? Interesting ideas advanced in both, but I think that, while definately worthy of discussion, the general concept of "intellectual property" is waaay too big to cover here.
As for music itself, I am a big believer in the internet as a means of distribution. I can think of a few artists selling self-published works online with whom I have had dealings (I'm very satisfied with them, by the way). I don't know how to apply this to a large scale opperation though, any suggestions?

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PostPosted: Mon May 12, 2003 6:18 am 
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Well, there's always the <a href=http://www.tobyslater.com>Toby Slater</a> solution...make some music and sell MP3s and CDs at ridiculously low prices through your web page. Don't know how profitable it is for him, but he seems to be doing okay.

Indie music is the answer to everything!

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PostPosted: Mon May 12, 2003 12:22 pm 
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this is a place holder. I'm at school, so I don't have time to type the entire thing out, but your Intellectual Property rights argument is completely flawed. I'll get back to it.

just gotta finish this psychology assignment...grr...


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon May 12, 2003 12:45 pm 
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I, for one, am looking rather favorably at Apple's new music solution. For one reason: it's legal.

What with the RIAA starting to knock down college student's doors, especially those running Direct Connect hubs, and me entering the military, its probably the best to start avoiding things that are against the law (that anyone can ever catch me for ;)).

I believe currently Apple's deal is only available for Macs now, and will be rolled out for PCs this fall. If the price drops to 50 cents per song downloaded, I'll probably jump on.

/edit: Yeah, I should probably provide a link to a more complete source of information: http://www.cnn.com/2003/TECH/05/11/appl ... index.html

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PostPosted: Mon May 12, 2003 4:41 pm 
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If a company wants me to download their music, they had better let me get it in a high-quality open format (read: Ogg Vorbis). I am NOT going to pay for something in exchange for more convenience and still have restrictions on its use. Plus, I reformat all the time--I don't need some license files to back up.

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PostPosted: Mon May 12, 2003 5:36 pm 
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I think that what apple is doing is a step in the right direction. This gives us freedom to get only the songs we want while still compensating the artists for their work.

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We're not mad. We're just argumentative. And we live in a state of fluctuating contempt for everything. - onion, when talking about herself and shoonra, actually describes the whole of kyhm forums.


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PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2003 8:00 am 
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I think it is a win-win situation at the minute; i get to get lots of music and i dont have to pay for it.

Seriously though think of teh exposure that Bands get from P2P networks like Kazaa, and if the person who downloaded it likes it there's a chance they may pay for the album. I know certain bands i always pay for the album (R.E.M. is an example), if they make good enough music people will be willing to pay.

PTLIS

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PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2003 9:50 am 
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PTLIS makes a damned good point. When it comes right down to it, music sales have slumped because of shitty music. The industry is trying to crank out the same shit over and over,a nd peoplearen't going to buy the same album 10 times a year. The proof can be shown in the radio. How many mainstream stations where you are at can you turn on and be garunteed to be playing one of 5 songs. I can't listen to the radio around here sometimes because I'm tired of the same damned thing over and over. Put out decent music, it will sell regardless of P2P sharing. I've bought a great deal of albums simply because I stumbled across them on P2P networks. Had that not happened, I would never had heard the music. All I know is that once my band gets a decent demo, I'm going to have that fucker all over the web with coprights linked to our personal site. You people will be free to listen and distribute as you would like. Hell, maybe it will get us some exposure...


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PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2003 10:27 am 
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I have only ever paid for 3 CD's. Sam Kekovich's comic CD(A footballer turned comedian), Dave Hughes: Whatever(another comedy CD) and The Living End: Roll On(My brothers birthday present).

I have 2124 songs on my computer.

Now, the thing is, before I started downloading MP3's I had bought in my life(ages 1-17) Zero music CDs, had given to me Zero Music CDs, after I was able to download mp3's I bought three music CD's.

I only listen to music at my computer, in the car I listen to Classic FM(Its calming) or I did until my FM band on the radio stopped working. Anyway what I am saying essentially is that I don't pay for music, I've never paid for music, I don't care all that much about it, its sociopathic on some levels I guess that I know that what I'm doing is wrong but I have friends who do buy music, however they don't buy games, something I do do(Every game I own nearly is legit), I also have friends that don't pay for their Anime, something else I do(all on DVDs all 100% legit[except for some of the stuff I get off them and even then I'm buying Noir every month even though I've seen them already]). So its not like I'm a freeloader, I'm just making up for parts of the economy which do suffer from piracy thanks to people like my friends, meanwhile people are probably buying music and pirating games and movies.

Anyway my argument is that the Recording industry is screwed as long as people like myself are around, people that don't give a crap about quailty of music and just want something to listen to as they download the latest demo for whatever new game they are going to buy.
And that argument for indie music is kinda valid, I actually went into a music store once and asked if they had some band I had a bunch of MP3s(I think it was Dashboard Confessional[I was looking for an E-Book of Enders game and got one of their songs]) but they didn't have them, I guess if I lived in America it would have been easier to grab a CD from them so yeah, its a valid point.

And I honestly don't care because in the last six months the only music I've downloaded has been from Anime soundtracks because:
A) Its still decent music that is for the most part not crap(Think Backstreet Boys).
B) Its different to most of the junk I listen to on the radio when I can't get Classic FM.
C) You can't buy the damn CDs in Australia without importing them(at least not from any stores I know about).

To summarise.

Its 3am, I'm too sleepy to make coherent arguments and should go and troll slashdot.

Actor.

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PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2003 5:39 pm 
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Hmm...I do think the Apple solution is really cool (although rather obvious; the only cool part is that they convinced the record companies to go along) for several reasons:
1. Convenience (a no-brainer)-when Kazaa goes down, it'll be back to the record store for me.
2. Price-while $1 seems like a lot for a song, it's really only about $10 per CD, much better than we're ever going to get with record companies. Also, you can pick and choose, saving you more money in the long term.
3. Potential-using this system, middlemen would be increasingly worthless, allowing artists to get more profits, etc.
4. Competition-the ability to pick songs requires artists to make more than one good song in an album.
5. Time to market-a group could record and have the song online in the same day.
6. Ease of use-instead of having a CD collection (which you will have to do once burn protection gets even better), it's all on the computer.
7. Accessibility-new artists could feasibly get records selling online instead of needing to get publicity through record companies. Also, Apple could offer small-business-like plans, except for beginning artists: either distribute the songs for free (users, after paying the monthly charge, get access to free-distribution songs) to gain fame, or charge less than professional artists.
8.Ubiquity-even areas without record stores could easily get any song in the world (assuming they have internet access ;) ). Also, people could access foreign songs easily.

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PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2003 10:13 pm 
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ugg, Did I write that last post?

Anyway let me clarrify, I've only ever got music for free and only used it on my PC, if they cut off Kazz, Morpheus, DC and WinMX tommorrow, I wouldn't really give much of a damn because I don't really need new music to entertain me constantly, my collection is good enough as it is.
So bringing down a p2p network is useless in stopping people like me from pirating, because I don't buy music anyways.

Also the Apple thing is a Good thing to my mind. Mostly for Apple because they sell a song for $1, but an iPod cost money, an iBook costs more and iMacs cost even more. While they are proabbly losing cash in the music part on the hardware side and long term they are making millions in extras.
(Blantently lstolen from slashdot I think)

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PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2003 11:26 pm 
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Unum Plurum wrote:
1. Convenience (a no-brainer)-when Kazaa goes down, it'll be back to the record store for me.


And something will spring up and take it's place. There will always be more out there.

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6. Ease of use-instead of having a CD collection (which you will have to do once burn protection gets even better), it's all on the computer.


Don't make me laugh. There have been tons of "unbreakable" burn protections created, and every time, someone has cracked them. There is no such thing as unbreakable, understand? There will always be someone out there, who can and will crack it.

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