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 Post subject: MiB reinforced my superiority/inferiority complex. Yay.
PostPosted: Tue Jun 10, 2003 11:49 am 
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Yeah, I admit I said some fairly stupid things.

*sighs*

My point wasn't to say the war in Iraq was wrong, or anything. I've mentioned a couple times that I am/was for it, in fact. I want people to justify themselves though, and so I play the passionate devil's advocate sometimes, especially when some are acting particularly stupid. No, you don't have to be against Bush or dislike America to not want war.

Unfortunately, I'm not always the best at it, so perhaps it is no surprise my stupidity wound up contagious. Any humor in the line about Osama was totally lost, and the whole idea that there are a lot of things impractical we could do to save on oil besides go to war and regime-change any hostile nations...ugh, poorly done.

That was a very genuine thank you, especially the part about OPEC.

I love America. It doesn't mean I can't call it a bitch of a country sometimes, and not always approve of how it is being run.

I was tempted to do a Rae at how this all turned out.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 10, 2003 12:35 pm 
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Angel On Crack wrote:
Saudi Arabia is no more a center for terrorism than any other middle eastern nation. Of course, ignorant people will say it is because "15 of the 19 hijackers were Saudi". That's great. Here's the thing about Saudi Arabia: the princes who control the country actually don't want to piss America off. The princes kind of like us, and would favor us if not for their volatile people. Not all of them, but understand that Saudi Arabia is a very strict Sunni nation - and recent events breed for more Sunni radicalism (and yes that is what Saddam and Osama both claim to).


Saudi Arabia is a greater supporter of terrorism than average. Saudi money is a prime financial source for terrorist organizations (see the report on the Golden Chain). Saudi ideology also is a factor; Saudi Arabia is the seat of the Wahhabi sect, perhaps the most intolerant and dangerous Islamic group of all. The Saudis spend millions upon millions of dollars to construct mosques and madrassas across the world promoting Wahhabism; their propaganda budget is higher than that of the former Soviet Union.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 10, 2003 12:43 pm 
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I meant "support" as far as support for terrorism from the federal government.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 10, 2003 5:50 pm 
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My earlier point was not that terrorism should be fought in the same way, only that it is morally the same as actual warfare. Tell me that terrorism kills more civilians that actual wars do. Go ahead.
Which brings me to my other point. Terrorists are not inherently terrorists; they terrorize for a reason. The Middle East as a whole has been a point of conflict between the other nations of the world because of its resources; it itself was never the aggressor (in the modern world). As such, its peoples' way of life has been in a state of flux between westernization and their original lifestyle. Into this flux comes a charismatic leader, and bam, you've got millions willing to give their lives. My point is that terrorism is not the Middle East's fault; it's the developed world's.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 10, 2003 6:54 pm 
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Unum Plurum wrote:
My point is that terrorism is not the Middle East's fault; it's the developed world's.


Yes, and it's not the rapists fault, it's because his mother beat him as a child. ~_~

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 10, 2003 7:34 pm 
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Unum Plurum wrote:
My point is that terrorism is not the Middle East's fault; it's the developed world's.


*blinks*

Talk about blaming the victim.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 10, 2003 8:31 pm 
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These people are raised from birth to hate America and you act like it is a choice.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2003 12:26 am 
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Then why do so few of them actually act on this supposed blind hatred?

P-M


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2003 7:32 am 
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No Ez, a better analogy would be its the girl who is raped's fault, because she dressed slutty and FORCED the rapist to rape her.

Thank you, Unum, for that wonderful bit of comedy.

-MiB

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 13, 2003 3:11 pm 
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yea, it's fairly easy to persuade a nation that "look, you're in poverty because of the war, and the war is America's fault, so hate America." It's a fucking Hitler tactic. We said we would topple Saddam's regime in the first Gulf War, and instead we bombed them, and then just left. Of course they hate us.

Terrorism is not the FAULT of the Middle East, nor the FAULT of the developed war, it is the FAULT of the few that resort to unconventional methods of violence and destruction to get their radical, fanatical points across. In most cases of recency, Sunni radicals. it is not the fault of a particular region or nation. that's just dumb. don't be dumb.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 13, 2003 3:28 pm 
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Pyromancer wrote:
Then why do so few of them actually act on this supposed blind hatred?

P-M


"these" refers to the terrorists. Did you think I meant Middle Easterners in general?

Angel btw, can I still blame Christianity for the redneck high school I go to? :)


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 13, 2003 3:28 pm 
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I've been thinking, exactly how fragile the current instution is in the middle east.

In Iran, students are being beaten and arrested for calling for the current regime to step down, and be replaced with something less radical (like....uh...democracy.) Talking with EC has changed my picture of the youth in Saudi Arabia (though I doubt so many are as preverted as he is.) There's really no reason to think its that much more different in most middle eastern areas (Palestine might be the exception, but I dunno...from what I've heard most people don't like the terrorists either.)

So what does this mean? It means, I think, that there are a lot more people willing to support democracy in the middle east than most news services are painting it. And there is a lot less blind anomosity than Osama and his crowd would like you to believe.

http://famulus.msnbc.com/FamulusIntl/re ... eg=MIDEAST

(for a different "view")

http://www.gulf-daily-news.com/Articles ... 65&Sn=WORL

-MiB

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 13, 2003 8:00 pm 
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MiB: interesting.

revolutio: sure.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 15, 2003 12:41 pm 
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Jeez. My point was simply that saying "terrorists" are evil is a generalization. You can hate them for the reason they do it, but not because they're terrorists. That's like saying the Iraq war was bad because it involved killing people. I believe that, but not because of the means (although that's a small part of it); I think it was wrong because of its stated intent.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 15, 2003 2:03 pm 
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Unum Plurum wrote:
Jeez. My point was simply that saying "terrorists" are evil is a generalization. You can hate them for the reason they do it, but not because they're terrorists. That's like saying the Iraq war was bad because it involved killing people. I believe that, but not because of the means (although that's a small part of it); I think it was wrong because of its stated intent.


Besides being a mishmash of BS, Unum quite clearly states in his post-

A dumbass who can't be bothered to check what he said wrote:
My point is that terrorism is not the Middle East's fault; it's the developed world's.


Funny, that seems like...oh...NOTHING AT ALL WHAT YOU JUST SAID.

-MiB

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 15, 2003 2:22 pm 
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Meh. I'm not getting into this debate on whether anything was right or wrong or whatnot. I will point out one thing, the point of the first Gulf War was NOT to take Saddam Hussein's regime. It never was. Ever. Yes, I do have credible sources for this, my bosses, and coworkers who were serving at the time. It was never a stated goal. The primary goal was to drive them out of Kuwait, which was where our interests lay at the time. Destroying the Iraqi government was not a goal.

Thank you for your time, I'll let you go back to bickering. x_x

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 15, 2003 4:26 pm 
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Unum Plurum wrote:
Jeez. My point was simply that saying "terrorists" are evil is a generalization. You can hate them for the reason they do it, but not because they're terrorists.


Actually, you can hate them very much indeed for being terrorists, the same as you can hate murderers and rapists for being murderers and rapists. A terrorist is not simply a soldier fighting for the wrong side; a terrorist is someone whose goal is carried out by deliberately causing mayhem, pain, and death to noncombatants.

I don't, for example, hate the Iraqi Army soldiers who fought the U.S. forces. I don't like them, I don't mourn them, and I was glad when I heard of them surrendering or being killed when they fought, but I don't hate them.

I hate terrorists. Terrorists are murderous scum, and deserve nothing but death.

VandalHeart:
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I will point out one thing, the point of the first Gulf War was NOT to take Saddam Hussein's regime. It never was. Ever.


You're right. Is anyone disputing this? As you say, it wasn't a stated goal. It should have been, but it wasn't. I don't understand what point you're trying to make here.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 15, 2003 5:43 pm 
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Angel On Crack wrote:
We said we would topple Saddam's regime in the first Gulf War, and instead we bombed them, and then just left. Of course they hate us.


Thats what I was responding to.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 18, 2003 11:32 am 
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I was simply making a different argument, MiB. You refuted one, and assumed the other was refuted, as well.

Back on topic, you provide no reason why terrorists are more evil in their warfare than any other combatants. Terrorists attack US and Israeli troops, and we still call them terrorists. If you choose to define terrorists as those who attack civilians, then sure, they're evil. Although I reserve the right to argue that point at a later time, as well.

At some point, the past matters. When a dog attacks a human, we says it's the owner's fault if it trained him to do so. Human free will has not been proven; unless you can prove that we have more free will than animals, you can't say that, on some level, and at some times, at least some of what we do is not our faults. Extending this, it is entirely possible that it is the rapist's parents' faults for rape, and that it is the West's fault for turmoil in the Middle East.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 18, 2003 11:46 am 
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Welcome to another installment of "Sweeping Generalization Nightly"

I don't think there's an edgewise to this debate, but one thing I haven't seen on this thread just yet is:

"Fundamentalism is lame."

So, whether that applies to your current discussion or not, that pretty much sums up how I feel about -isms or any other ideal that, by appearences, circumvents the sort of "free will" one might expect from a human being that we might consider capable of rational thought and expression.

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