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 Post subject: Views of a Changing World: Opinions please
PostPosted: Tue Jun 03, 2003 4:49 pm 
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Okay this is alot of material. I have been reading through and have seen many things that please, surprise, and disgust me.

It is really too much info for me to not miss something. Post anything you think is particularly interesting. Should provide for some interesting and lasting discussion.

Views of a Changing World 2003

Quote:
Since last summer, favorable ratings for the U.S. have fallen from 61% to 15% in Indonesia


Quote:
47% of Israelis believe that the U.S. favors Israel too much


Quote:
Large majorities in 42 of 44 countries believe that their traditional way of life is getting lost and most people feel that their way of life has to be protected against foreign influence.
Sigh... that is what museums are for.


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 Post subject: Re: Views of a Changing World: Opinions please
PostPosted: Fri Jun 06, 2003 7:23 am 
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revolutio wrote:
Okay this is alot of material. I have been reading through and have seen many things that please, surprise, and disgust me.

It is really too much info for me to not miss something. Post anything you think is particularly interesting. Should provide for some interesting and lasting discussion.

Views of a Changing World 2003

Quote:
Since last summer, favorable ratings for the U.S. have fallen from 61% to 15% in Indonesia


Quote:
47% of Israelis believe that the U.S. favors Israel too much




I'm going to say I agree with the US favouring Israel to much. Most articles regarding the middle east involve the US backing up the Israeli army against the palestinians. But recently, George Bush got Yasser Arafat and Ariel Sharon to discuss a peace treaty. Hopefully it will work out.

Also the recent massacres in the Republic of Congo required the Canadian Peacekeeping forces, which unfortunately are vastly distributed across other third world countries. I hope the United Nations finds some way of alleviating the problem.

The indonesians have started being ignored by the United States because they're focusing there army on Bombing other countries. We've begun and ended two Wars in less then 2 years.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 06, 2003 11:10 am 
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Quote:
"A way for Israeli State and Palestinian Rights to Coexist?"

Israel: 67% Yes, 29% No.
Palestinian Authority: 17% Yes, 80% No


Tell me again about that road map.

Also note that Osama bin Laden is the world leader most chosen by the Palestinians to "do the right thing."

The across-the-board drop in the credibility of the UN is a good thing.

Also interesting how the "racist-to-the-core" U.S. has the highest positive opinion of minority groups of the nations listed.

This is worrisome: At the same time, most Muslims also support a prominent – and in some cases expanding – role for Islam and religious leaders in the political life of their countries.

I am not sure what to make of the followup to that statement, which is this: Yet that opinion does not diminish Muslim support for a system of governance that ensures the same civil liberties and political rights enjoyed by democracies. They seem to be mutually contradictory.

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I'm going to say I agree with the US favouring Israel to much. Most articles regarding the middle east involve the US backing up the Israeli army against the palestinians.


Care to share any of these articles? The U.S. has never, to my knowledge, directly backed up the Israeli army, against the Palestinians or against any of the other enemies they have faced. They sell and give equipment to them, but I've never heard of us deploying troops there.

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But recently, George Bush got Yasser Arafat and Ariel Sharon to discuss a peace treaty. Hopefully it will work out.


You obviously pay no attention whatsoever to the news. Bush refuses to work with Arafat, on the grounds that Arafat is a terrorist supporter (which he is) who will never lead his people to peace. Bush is working with Mahmoud Abbas, the Palestinian prime minister who was appointed by Arafat (and doubtlessly answers to him, still leaving Arafat running the Palestinian side of the show).


Last edited by Kylaer on Fri Jun 06, 2003 11:17 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 06, 2003 11:16 am 
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Thats why I like the good ole seperation of Church and State. God doesn't control our government, and thats the way it should be...


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 06, 2003 11:39 am 
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http://avpv.tripod.com/terror-groups.html

here you go, go educate yourselves.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 06, 2003 1:11 pm 
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Kylaer wrote:
This is worrisome: At the same time, most Muslims also support a prominent – and in some cases expanding – role for Islam and religious leaders in the political life of their countries.

I am not sure what to make of the followup to that statement, which is this: Yet that opinion does not diminish Muslim support for a system of governance that ensures the same civil liberties and political rights enjoyed by democracies. They seem to be mutually contradictory.


I see no problem with that. Just because the totalitarian governments in the Middle East have been religiously based does not necessarily mean that it will always be that way nor does it mean that they are even related.

Their religion does not opress civil liberties and political rights, that is their leader's doing.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 06, 2003 1:36 pm 
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revolutio wrote:
Their religion does not opress civil liberties and political rights, that is their leader's doing.


Yes, it does. Shari'ah law, based on the Koran and the hadiths, is antithetical to civil liberties.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 06, 2003 1:57 pm 
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http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/

Show me, also make sure to clearly define what you mean by "civil liberties."


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 06, 2003 3:46 pm 
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God's word as highest law of the land:
Quote:
005.050
YUSUFALI: Do they then seek after a judgment of (the days of) ignorance? But who, for a people whose faith is assured, can give better judgment than Allah?
PICKTHAL: Is it a judgment of the time of (pagan) ignorance that they are seeking? Who is better than Allah for judgment to a people who have certainty (in their belief)?
SHAKIR: Is it then the judgment of (the times of) ignorance that they desire? And who is better than Allah to judge for a people who are sure?


Description of the eternal state of war with the infidel, and how they are to be oppressed once conquered:
Quote:
009.029
YUSUFALI: Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.
PICKTHAL: Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, and forbid not that which Allah hath forbidden by His messenger, and follow not the Religion of Truth, until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low.
SHAKIR: Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Messenger have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.


Instructions for the torture of captured infidels:
Quote:
040.070
YUSUFALI: Those who reject the Book and the (revelations) with which We sent our messengers: but soon shall they know,-
PICKTHAL: Those who deny the Scripture and that wherewith We send Our messengers. But they will come to know,
SHAKIR: Those who reject the Book and that with which We have sent Our Messenger; but they shall soon come to know,

040.071
YUSUFALI: When the yokes (shall be) round their necks, and the chains; they shall be dragged along-
PICKTHAL: When carcans are about their necks and chains. They are dragged
SHAKIR: When the fetters and the chains shall be on their necks; they shall be dragged

040.072
YUSUFALI: In the boiling fetid fluid: then in the Fire shall they be burned;
PICKTHAL: Through boiling waters; then they are thrust into the Fire.
SHAKIR: Into boiling water, then in the fire shall they be burned;

040.073
YUSUFALI: Then shall it be said to them: "Where are the (deities) to which ye gave part-worship-
PICKTHAL: Then it is said unto them: Where are (all) that ye used to make partners (in the Sovereignty)
SHAKIR: Then shall it be said to them: Where is that which you used to set up

040.074
YUSUFALI: "In derogation of Allah?" They will reply: "They have left us in the lurch: Nay, we invoked not, of old, anything (that had real existence)." Thus does Allah leave the Unbelievers to stray.
PICKTHAL: Beside Allah? They say: They have failed us; but we used not to pray to anything before. Thus doth Allah send astray the disbelievers (in His guidance).
SHAKIR: Besides Allah? They shall say: They are gone away from us, nay, we used not to call upon anything before. Thus does Allah confound the unbelievers.


Here's a hadith (saying or anecdote by or about Mohammed), recorded by Sahih Bukhari. Hadiths are also used as the basis for shari'ah, alongside the Koran itself.
Quote:
Volume 4, Book 53, Number 392:
Narrated Abu Huraira:

While we were in the Mosque, the Prophet came out and said, "Let us go to the Jews" We went out till we reached Bait-ul-Midras. He said to them, "If you embrace Islam, you will be safe. You should know that the earth belongs to Allah and His Apostle, and I want to expel you from this land. So, if anyone amongst you owns some property, he is permitted to sell it, otherwise you should know that the Earth belongs to Allah and His Apostle."


And here's more on shari'ah, regarding the innate inequality between the Muslim and the infidel (with the Muslim superior, of course). This site seems to draw more heavily on the hadiths, with which I am not as familiar.

Civil liberties? The most basic one is life itself, which is forfit under shari'ah if you happen to be an infidel. Freedom of belief is a second, which is also forfit. Equality under the law is a third; Muslims can never be allowed to be the equal of a mere infidel, and shari'ah reflects this (no Muslim can be sentenced to death for killing a non-Muslim, a non-Muslim cannot testify against a Muslim in court).


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 06, 2003 6:38 pm 
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This book is almost as dodgy as the Bible when it comes to correct behavior.

Quote:
045.014
YUSUFALI: Tell those who believe, to forgive those who do not look forward to the Days of Allah: It is for Him to recompense (for good or ill) each People according to what they have earned.
PICKTHAL: Tell those who believe to forgive those who hope not for the days of Allah; in order that He may requite folk what they used to earn.
SHAKIR: Say to those who believe (that) they forgive those who do not fear the days of Allah that He may reward a people for what they earn.

Quote:
042.042
YUSUFALI: The blame is only against those who oppress men and wrong-doing and insolently transgress beyond bounds through the land, defying right and justice: for such there will be a penalty grievous.
PICKTHAL: The way (of blame) is only against those who oppress mankind, and wrongfully rebel in the earth. For such there is a painful doom.
SHAKIR: The way (to blame) is only against those who oppress men and revolt in the earth unjustly; these shall have a painful punishment.

Quote:
060.008
YUSUFALI: Allah forbids you not, with regard to those who fight you not for (your) Faith nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them: for Allah loveth those who are just.
PICKTHAL: Allah forbiddeth you not those who warred not against you on account of religion and drove you not out from your homes, that ye should show them kindness and deal justly with them. Lo! Allah loveth the just dealers.
SHAKIR: Allah does not forbid you respecting those who have not made war against you on account of (your) religion, and have not driven you forth from your homes, that you show them kindness and deal with them justly; surely Allah loves the doers of justice.

Quote:
O ye who believe! Draw not near unto prayer when ye are drunken, till ye know that which ye utter, nor when ye are polluted, save when journeying upon the road, till ye have bathed. And if ye be ill, or on a journey, or one of you cometh from the closet, or ye have touched women

Ooops wrong one ;)

Basically I am just trying to point out that if taken absolutely and literally without any exemptions it will probably drive people insane since, like the Bible and most other Holy Books, it contradicts itself.

However there are a great many beneficial things, though it is an arrogant religion it heavily encourages peacefullness and patience to all peoples.

There is not point in this argument anyway, if a Moslem is nice to me I couldn't give a flying fuck whether or not their religion dictates they should strangle me with my own entrails.

Note to self: When writing your own holy book make sure to include clause about strangling disbelievers with their own entrails.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 06, 2003 8:02 pm 
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The Koran actually isn't so contradictory when you consider the manner in which it was created. The surahs (chapters) aren't in chronological order; on your source site, they're arranged in order of length, except for the opening (naturally). When put in chronological order, the more peaceful and tolerant passages will be found in the earlier sections. This corresponds to the time during which Mohammed was weak, with few followers and at the mercy of the other various factions around him. He had to avoid ruffling feathers. The jihad begins later, once Mohammed had enough weight (in terms of followers) to start throwing it around. As Mohammed's power grew, his restraint weakened; he went from preaching religious tolerance to condemning other religions (particularly Jews, whom Allah cursed to be "pigs and monkeys") to slavery or death, followed by hellfire.

The problem lies in the fact that the earlier chronological sections of the Koran are abrogated by the later sections. If two of Allah's commands are contradictory, the most recently revealed one takes control. Thus, peace and tolerance are cast aside in favor of holy war by the true believers.

Edited to add:
In fact, that quote you mentioned about the alcohol gives a good example to this. The following is a sequence of commands about alcohol, in chronological order.

Quote:
016.067
YUSUFALI: And from the fruit of the date-palm and the vine, ye get out wholesome drink and food: behold, in this also is a sign for those who are wise.
PICKTHAL: And of the fruits of the date-palm, and grapes, whence ye derive strong drink and (also) good nourishment. Lo! therein is indeed a portent for people who have sense.
SHAKIR: And of the fruits of the palms and the grapes-- you obtain from them intoxication and goodly provision; most surely there is a sign in this for a people who ponder.

002.219
YUSUFALI: They ask thee concerning wine and gambling. Say: "In them is great sin, and some profit, for men; but the sin is greater than the profit." They ask thee how much they are to spend; Say: "What is beyond your needs." Thus doth Allah Make clear to you His Signs: In order that ye may consider-
PICKTHAL: They question thee about strong drink and games of chance. Say: In both is great sin, and (some) utility for men; but the sin of them is greater than their usefulness. And they ask thee what they ought to spend. Say: that which is superfluous. Thus Allah maketh plain to you (His) revelations, that haply ye may reflect.
SHAKIR: They ask you about intoxicants and games of chance. Say: In both of them there is a great sin and means of profit for men, and their sin is greater than their profit. And they ask you as to what they should spend. Say: What you can spare. Thus does Allah make clear to you the communications, that you may ponder

004.043
YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! Approach not prayers with a mind befogged, until ye can understand all that ye say,- nor in a state of ceremonial impurity (Except when travelling on the road), until after washing your whole body. If ye are ill, or on a journey, or one of you cometh from offices of nature, or ye have been in contact with women, and ye find no water, then take for yourselves clean sand or earth, and rub therewith your faces and hands. For Allah doth blot out sins and forgive again and again.
PICKTHAL: O ye who believe! Draw not near unto prayer when ye are drunken, till ye know that which ye utter, nor when ye are polluted, save when journeying upon the road, till ye have bathed. And if ye be ill, or on a journey, or one of you cometh from the closet, or ye have touched women, and ye find not water, then go to high clean soil and rub your faces and your hands (therewith). Lo! Allah is Benign, Forgiving.
SHAKIR: O you who believe! do not go near prayer when you are Intoxicated until you know (well) what you say, nor when you are under an obligation to perform a bath-- unless (you are) travelling on the road-- until you have washed yourselves; and if you are sick, or on a journey, or one of you come from the privy or you have touched the women, and you cannot find water, betake yourselves to pure earth, then wipe your faces and your hands; surely Allah is Pardoning, Forgiving.

005.090
YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! Intoxicants and gambling, (dedication of) stones, and (divination by) arrows, are an abomination,- of Satan's handwork: eschew such (abomination), that ye may prosper.
PICKTHAL: O ye who believe! Strong drink and games of chance and idols and divining arrows are only an infamy of Satan's handiwork. Leave it aside in order that ye may succeed.
SHAKIR: O you who believe! intoxicants and games of chance and (sacrificing to) stones set up and (dividing by) arrows are only an uncleanness, the Shaitan's work; shun it therefore that you may be successful.


First OK, then sinful, then partially prohibited, then banned. As his power to command his followers grew, so did his use of that power.

Quote:
There is not point in this argument anyway, if a Moslem is nice to me I couldn't give a flying fuck whether or not their religion dictates they should strangle me with my own entrails.


I never said that Muslims couldn't be good people. But can you dispute that Islam, if followed as Mohammed (conquerer that he was) intended it, provides the basis for conquest and oppression?


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 07, 2003 3:54 pm 
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If you distort it and ignore various portions of the Qur'an certainly can.

Like i said man you can't completely follow it since it contradicts itself. But were you to only look at the "bad" pieces of it, it certainly could justify conquest and oppression. If you only looked at the "good" pieces of it it could be almost as pacifistic as Buddhism.

You are only looking at the violent sides of it. There are also many parts that directly contradict those. And vice versa.

This is pointless I am gonna go watch porn.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 07, 2003 10:30 pm 
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Did you even read my post? They don't contradict. The early sections are abrogated, declared null and void, by the later sections. This was exactly how Mohammed himself defined it. I look at the violent side because the violent side is the later (and thus dominant) side. The later orders to carry out jihad sweep aside all the commands to be peaceful and tolerant.

If you looked only at the good pieces, you wouldn't be a Muslim. You'd be a heretic, for selectively interpreting the Koran, and under a sentence of death from the true believers.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 29, 2003 5:09 pm 
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Sorry guys, I'm another of those people who don't practice a set religion but rather have beliefs of their own...but here's my view on it:

If the Koran is set up so that the earlier pieces are declared null and void by any further revelation, what's to stop, say...a young man name Mohammed, for the sake of argument, attaining power by manipulating an under-educated and/or overly zealous major religion by way of the 'word of god?' This is simply idea-tossing, I am not trying to say Mohammed was a fake. I am just saying that things like this are possible over the thousands of years it took these conflicts to come into being. I could just as easily make a comparison to Christ in this way, but it would be going further off-topic than I need to do.

Another thing...while I realise that a large portion of the Middle-East hates Americans, is that sentiment mostly geared toward the military and the government or toward ALL Americans? I've never really gotten a chance to ask it before.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 29, 2003 9:46 pm 
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Quote:
Another thing...while I realise that a large portion of the Middle-East hates Americans, is that sentiment mostly geared toward the military and the government or toward ALL Americans? I've never really gotten a chance to ask it before.


Its toward American society which is corrupt and decadent. If you as an American are willing to denounce the American way of life and embrace Islam they would be happy to have you. You'd have to pass some test to prove your conversion of course.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 03, 2003 9:40 am 
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How about we just conclude the arguement with this:

EC-brand Muslims = good.

Osama Bin Laden brand Muslims = bad.

I am still convinced that the latter brand of muslims are a minority- however, they are a powerful and violent minority. So we're stuck with having to either stab them in the eye or convince them that we're not really so bad. I have little hope for the latter myself, as when religion in involved people can be very stubborn.

We have to remember, Ky, that Islam is not our enemy, but rather the Osama-brand Muslims are, and the message they preach is. The silent majority in muslim countries are no more guilty than those who disliked but did not actively try to kill Hitler in Germany were, and in this case are probably a much larger portion of the population. Perhaps less ballsy than we'd like them to be (who doesn't want someone else to do their job for them after all?) but hey, no reason to go around declaring a religion our enemy.

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