ZOMBIE FORUMS

It's a stinking, shambling corpse grotesquely parodying life.
It is currently Thu Mar 28, 2024 2:46 pm

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]




Forum locked This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 28 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Executing mentally retarded convicts
PostPosted: Tue Jun 10, 2003 9:50 pm 
Offline
Local
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jan 04, 2003 5:00 pm
Posts: 198
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada. Unfortunately.
Oooooo. This should get some debates going. We all know about the current battles going on about whether or not to execute convicted felons who are mentally retarded. So, let's get this started.

_________________
"History admires the wise, but it elevates the brave"-Edmund Morris

Moodflow.com - the greatest pictures ever.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jun 10, 2003 10:31 pm 
Offline
Addict
User avatar

Joined: Mon Mar 10, 2003 6:38 pm
Posts: 3148
Location: Gay bar at the end of the universe
Go for it. More people dead the better.

Now if no one minds I am going to go kick a small defensless puppy to death.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jun 10, 2003 10:44 pm 
Offline
PostWhorePornStar
User avatar

Joined: Sat Apr 13, 2002 5:00 pm
Posts: 10551
Location: Bris-Vegas Australia
I'm against it.
Just because they can't defend themselves.

Let me be blunt, without medication my older brother would be impossible to control, for the last 23 years we've pumped him full of drugs (less nowdays, only about 4 a day down from 8 when he was 15) with drugs he's the gentlest person I know.

Mentally disabled people aren't normal, I'll grant that, they sometimes need to be looked after, if not by the parents (thank god my parents decided to keep him instead of putting him away somewhere) due to their in-ability to properly care for them, then by the state, my mum runs a charity that tries to get mentally disabled people out of their parents homes and living independantly, so far they've been pretty successful.
My older brother will most likely move out in the next four years to a place on his own.
Sorry, I've threadjacked, let me start over.

Mentally disabled people that kill may do so for a number of reasons, the only ones I could think of was a lack of proper medication or bad living conditions(bad care given by guardians). Both can be atributed to bad care given by their legal guardians.

Its still a difficult subject to debate, a mentally disabled person, do they derserve the same punishment as the rest of us or not?
I'm against it but I'm biased, they don't have any way of defending themselves afterwards and most of the time can't even comprehend what they have done that was wrong.


Now if you will excuse me I'm going to go and cut out this bleeding heart of mine.
Actor.

_________________
"Why can't we go back to living like cavemen? I know it was a rough and ready existence - the men where always rough and the women were always ready! " - Santa.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2003 8:15 am 
Offline
Native

Joined: Wed Jun 19, 2002 5:00 pm
Posts: 903
Absolutely, execute them. If they can kill, they can die, and they should.

Also, if there was no "safe haven" for the disabled, the issue of "borderline-disabled" people trying to escape by claiming to be worse off than they are wouldn't exist.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2003 9:13 am 
Offline
Addict
User avatar

Joined: Thu Apr 11, 2002 5:00 pm
Posts: 3730
Location: DELETED FOR SECURITY REASONS
There is mentally retarded and mentally disabled. One is just a lack of intelligence, and the other is a mental disorder such as the kind described by Actor. The two are NOT THE SAME, and should not be taken for the same.

My mother works in the loony bin, some of the people who she has to take care of are mentally retarded, but that is IN ADDITION TO being mentally ill- schizophrenia, MPD, etc. Being retarded does not mean you also are mentally ill.

We already have an out for the mentally ill - not guilty by reason of insanity. Mentally ill people merely have slower mental processes, and perhaps cannot learn very well. However, one of the easiest things to learn is this- life is precious, and should not be taken without a good reason. Claiming that the retarded cannot understand this is idiocy in the extreme. They can, and if they take life then they are just as guilty as someone smarter than them. If you can prove that they cannot understand that killing = bad, then they are techniqually mentally ill (sociopathic, I think is the word.)

But I've had mentally retarded friends in the past, and have one now, and I can tell you that claiming any mentally retarded person is 'too stupid' to figure out that killing is a severe crime is an insult I take quite personally. These people are human beings, with only (as I see it) a minor impedimant. It doesn't get in the way of me communicating and understanding them (speech disorders can be gotten around) and it certainly doesn't mean that they are incapable of understanding the concept of right and wrong.

-MiB

_________________
delenda est communism


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2003 9:24 am 
Offline
PostWhorePornStar
User avatar

Joined: Sat Apr 13, 2002 5:00 pm
Posts: 10551
Location: Bris-Vegas Australia
My apologies MiB, I didn't relise the differance between the two, I guess it doesn't help that we don't have a death penalty over here(unless you commit Piracy on the high seas or Treason). And also that this hasn't been such a big issue over here.

If a person is capable of understanding that what they are doing is wrong during, after and before they then I guess some punishment should be metted out. I don't know about death thats all.

Actor.

_________________
"Why can't we go back to living like cavemen? I know it was a rough and ready existence - the men where always rough and the women were always ready! " - Santa.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2003 10:47 am 
Offline
Addict
User avatar

Joined: Mon Mar 10, 2003 6:38 pm
Posts: 3148
Location: Gay bar at the end of the universe
Okay seriously now.

As MiB said there are two very different classifications of mental disorders. I don't know a great deal about either so I won't try to pass judgement in those respects.

If a person does have a harder time controling their actions and understanding laws, then I feel that it is unfair to levy out the same punishment as a person who was fully aware of what they were doing would receive.

However I do think that they should not be allowed out of prison to reproduce. That sounds harsh but it is just my personal belief that if someone has violent tendencies in their genes then they should not be allowed to perpetuate them.

However it would take a rather severe mental disorder for this to apply in my opinion. Having been around many schizophernics I know that they are capable of fully controlling their actions. Most that act out do so out of an already present lack of self-awareness and control.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2003 7:21 pm 
Offline
Addict
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 18, 2002 5:00 pm
Posts: 2428
Location: In the ether, Hand of DM poised for enervation at will
revolutio wrote:
Okay seriously now.

As MiB said there are two very different classifications of mental disorders. I don't know a great deal about either so I won't try to pass judgement in those respects.

If a person does have a harder time controling their actions and understanding laws, then I feel that it is unfair to levy out the same punishment as a person who was fully aware of what they were doing would receive.

However I do think that they should not be allowed out of prison to reproduce. That sounds harsh but it is just my personal belief that if someone has violent tendencies in their genes then they should not be allowed to perpetuate them.

However it would take a rather severe mental disorder for this to apply in my opinion. Having been around many schizophernics I know that they are capable of fully controlling their actions. Most that act out do so out of an already present lack of self-awareness and control.


I agree. If a severely mentally retarded or autistic person kills someone, I don't think they should get the death penalty if they truly didn't understand that it was wrong. Keep them in prison or a mental home so they're not a danger so society, but don't kill them. They can't really control themselves

However, if the person is merely, say, schizophrenic or manic depressive, they should get the full punishment. Beacuse even though they're depressed or hear voices, they still know right from wrong, and can't really claim they didn't know. Even mildly retarded people can tell the difference between right and wrong. They shouldn't be sheltered from punishment just because they can't think as fast as the rest of us. If we don't punish the people who can think mostly for themselves, we're sending the wrong message out to people.

_________________
The scent of Binturong musk is often compared to that of warm popcorn.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2003 7:36 pm 
Offline
PostWhorePornStar
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jan 17, 2003 5:00 pm
Posts: 7672
Location: Tallahassee, FL
One of my step sisters is extremely retarded. She has a genetic disorder or two, I can't remember what. All in all, she has an IQ of 41, is 16 nearly 17, and lives in a state home. She just became too much to take care of around the house. Anywho, if she was to murder someone, I don't know that the death penalty would be appropriate in this situation, because she is pretty far off, and yes, she could kill someone as in she is physically capable, even if not able to walk very well. Now I would expect that she would be put away, but death may be a bit harsh for someone in Shere's case. Now, take someone who is borderline like Forrest Gump. Fry that monkey's ass from now until hes nice and golden brown...


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2003 9:41 pm 
Offline
Addict
User avatar

Joined: Tue May 14, 2002 5:00 pm
Posts: 3447
Location: New York
Well, first of all, the death penalty as a whole is idiotic and based more on the primitive idea that two wrongs make a right than anything else. It costs more money to put someone to death than it does to let them live out a life sentence.

Executing the retarded is just plain fucking stupid. Retarded people can't even UNDERSTAND the concept of death. I know some retarded people (MiB for example :D), and, like little kids, they really can't comprehend what it means to die. Thus, they don't know that if they get angry and beat someone to death, that that person is no longer in existence.

Oh, and...

revolutio wrote:
However I do think that they should not be allowed out of prison to reproduce. That sounds harsh but it is just my personal belief that if someone has violent tendencies in their genes then they should not be allowed to perpetuate them.


When someone is violent, it has nothing to do with their genes. Human personality is much more influenced by social interaction than by genetics.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Wait 10 years, now...
PostPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2003 12:00 am 
Offline
Addict
User avatar

Joined: Mon May 06, 2002 5:00 pm
Posts: 1967
Location: All curled up in a Calabi-Yau space
IcyMonkey wrote:
When someone is violent, it has nothing to do with their genes. Human personality is much more influenced by social interaction than by genetics.

Oh, solved that whole nature/nurture debate by ourselves, have we? Do you have a working computer model of the entire human phenotyping process you've been holding out on us about?

Not to be a smart-ass, I'm actually inclined to agree with you. It just seems a bit premature to state categorically that a predisposition towards violence can't have *anything* to do with genes.

_________________
Belief is the death of intelligence. As soon as one believes a doctrine of any sort, or assumes certitude, one stops thinking about that aspect of existence.
- Robert Anton Wilson


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2003 1:27 am 
Offline
Addict
User avatar

Joined: Mon Mar 10, 2003 6:38 pm
Posts: 3148
Location: Gay bar at the end of the universe
The death penalty is another issue entirely but about the reproduction part I do certainly agree that personality is mostly, if not closing on entirely, the result of their upbringing. However that doesn't change the fact that were these people to eventually get out of prison and raise children they would impress upon them the same philosophies that led them to commit crimes in the first place.

Though many mental disorders that can cause people to be more prone to violence are atleast in part genetic.

Izy one point: You say that the death penalty is based on the principle that two wrongs make a right. It is your own personal belief that death is always "wrong," since last I checked right and wrong were not well defined, however many people believe it to be an acceptable option or "right."


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2003 3:20 am 
Offline
Spawn of Kyhm and D
User avatar

Joined: Fri Nov 01, 2002 5:00 pm
Posts: 4498
Location: Australia
revolutio wrote:
Izy one point: You say that the death penalty is based on the principle that two wrongs make a right. It is your own personal belief that death is always "wrong," since last I checked right and wrong were not well defined, however many people believe it to be an acceptable option or "right."


Uh... don't we see murder as wrong? The taking of one life by another person? Isn't that the same thing as execution? - I believe that's what Icy means. I had my own opinion, but then I went and got drunk.

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2003 3:26 am 
Offline
Addict
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2002 5:00 pm
Posts: 1914
Location: Baal Secondus
In my opinion the death penalty is a poor way of punisment. I mean okay the person knows that they are going to die and there is nothing that they can do about it which is a pretty good incentive to not commit crime that could get you the death penatly, but once it has been done thats it, the criminal lives no more and feels no more pain (as far as we know). I think a better way would be a life of pain, day after day of tourture, okay many people will not agree with me, but I think that the threat of a life of pain compared to a quick death is a much better deterant.

_________________
"We Legion know what it be like to be warjack. When death comes, I die bleeding oil and sparks like metal brothers. When death comes, I die in steam." - Deidric Harkinos, veteran of the Man-O-War Legion


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2003 4:49 am 
Offline
PostWhorePornStar
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jan 17, 2003 5:00 pm
Posts: 7672
Location: Tallahassee, FL
But then we get bleeding hearts saying torture is cruel and unusual...


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2003 4:51 am 
Offline
Addict
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2002 5:00 pm
Posts: 1914
Location: Baal Secondus
krylex wrote:
But then we get bleeding hearts saying torture is cruel and unusual...


And I would agree who heartedly, but it would be a far more effective deterant than the death penalty in my opinion. I beilve that the end always justifys the means.

_________________
"We Legion know what it be like to be warjack. When death comes, I die bleeding oil and sparks like metal brothers. When death comes, I die in steam." - Deidric Harkinos, veteran of the Man-O-War Legion


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2003 5:41 am 
Offline
Addict
User avatar

Joined: Tue Apr 23, 2002 5:00 pm
Posts: 3706
I'm against the death penalty at all so obviously i'd be against it for people with mental problems. I just cant understand why anyone can be given the right to decide who deserves to die apart from God (or generic deity of your choice or if you're agnostic/athiest fate). For the sake of arguemnt though i'll ignore that for now.

Mentally retarded. Just because the person is of below average intellegance or has a lower capability to learn does not exempt them from the laws we abaide by no more than geniuses (or geni, im not sure of the plural for more than one Genius) should be exempt because they have higher than average intellegence.

Mentally Disabled: Im not sure which illnesses would fall into this catagory but i'm assuming stuff like schitzophrenea and Multiple Presonalities Disorder would, maybe depression. Anything where there is a proven neorological disorder of this type should be exempt from executions; they may not be fully aware of the consequences of their actions.

PTLIS

_________________
There's mischief and malarkies but no queers or yids or darkies
within this bastard's carnival, this vicious cabaret.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2003 6:04 am 
Offline
Local
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jan 04, 2003 5:00 pm
Posts: 198
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada. Unfortunately.
Execution is a viable way of punishing convicts, retarded or not. Not to make convicts sound like numbers on a chart, but it costs much more to keep them alive for 80 years than it does to stick a needle in them. Now before you go saying "That's cruel, people are not numbers", consider this: Prisons are dangerously over crowded, and it's costing us as tax payers billions to keep the really bad ones alive.
Ya, I know. Not exactly on topic, but it relates to the grand scheme of things.

_________________
"History admires the wise, but it elevates the brave"-Edmund Morris

Moodflow.com - the greatest pictures ever.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2003 6:10 am 
Offline
Spawn of Kyhm and D
User avatar

Joined: Fri Nov 01, 2002 5:00 pm
Posts: 4498
Location: Australia
IcyMonkey wrote:
It costs more money to put someone to death than it does to let them live out a life sentence.


General Gir wrote:
Not to make convicts sound like numbers on a chart, but it costs much more to keep them alive for 80 years than it does to stick a needle in them.


That's nice. Now one of you back up what you're saying with proof. Someone has to be wrong here.

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: I'll side with Icy, thank you.
PostPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2003 7:48 am 
Offline
Addict
User avatar

Joined: Sat Feb 22, 2003 1:42 pm
Posts: 1793
Location: Still Alaska
I believe Icy is referring to the legal costs of appeals (as well as a number of other legal processes that are required for death penalty cases, and with good reason), hiring the executioner, and all the other various stuff included in that, which can amount to quite a lot (in the hundreds of thousands, I think). Gir, I bet, is drawing from common sense.

I'm inclined to believe Icy, not only because he seems to have a longer history of being right and states a fact that wouldn't seem to be common sense, but I think I've heard similar things before from reliable sources. Might very well be wrong, and they could be both wrong/right, depending on any number of things.

My opinion (putting aside any issue of whether the death penalty is wrong, because I don't pretend to know) : you're stupid, lovely. Unless it prevents you from knowing right from wrong, that isn't insanity. Impaired mental state? Yes, but so is someone who has been awake for 140 hours or just plain blinded by rage, and they'd still get the death penalty it the crime was severe enough.

As for the not understanding the whole "dead = dead," thing, that's certainly true in some cases. I've known victims of FAS (kids, I admit) that would walk across a busy intersection. When stopped by the person who was taking care of him, something along the lines of this conversation occurred:
Caretaker-type-person: What would have happened if you had kept walking down that street:
Him: I would have got hit by that truck, and died.
Caretaker-type: And then what would happened.
Him:Then I'd get up, and we'd go get some ice-cream.

One important thing to remember though: the death penalty isn't just handed out for killing someone. It usually only happens when there is a massive murder (AKA Oklahoma City), or in cases involving brutal rape, torture, and/or something of the like before the killing. Needless to say, I'd guess that even the duller people would tend to get that this was severely wrong.

Yes, they most likely don't understand how terrible their crime is as much as your "average person." This mitigates the sentencing they should get in my opinion, but to get rid of the death penalty even as an option? Balls.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Forum locked This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 28 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 23 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group