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PostPosted: Tue Oct 28, 2003 11:36 am 
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I wasn't meaning your argument that the Christian God is the same God of the old book. The debate here is primarily about whether said God exists or not. Now, a bit on what you did post. Elohim was basically a common name given to their God. The first name actually mentioned in the old Hebrew books, however, is his proper name of YHWH, which would be pronounced Yaweh (those crazy Hebrews and their lack of vowels). Thats the name that couldn't be spoken. This has led to a bit of a debate, as the books speak of YHWH in such a different way as they speak of Elohim, and also the fact that Elohim is actually a plural word, that the early Hebrew's might have actually been polytheistic, that is believing in more than one god. Now, this wouldn't be as big a shock as polytheism was very much the norm. Its believed by some that after time, the ideas of YHWH and Elohim merged into one god. Jehovah is merely either a mispronounciation or just a change of pronounciation in the translation of YHWH. They both are the same thing. So, in essance, it might be difficult to say Jesus is the same as YHWH as the bible itself has problems with YHWH and Elohim being seperate. Most translations don't show this, but if you pick up a copy of a particular bible, it has the correct translations, although I can't remember the name now. I'll post it here in an edit when I have time to find out the name.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 28, 2003 12:00 pm 
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Akuma Kei wrote:
4: In the actual sacrifice, the lamb must be burnt as an offering (Christ was crucified, a very slow form of burning)


Huh?

No really, huh? Hung up on a wooden stick != burning, that's not to say it isn't painful.

Wait, sunburns?

And Kry, probably the NRSV. (New Revised Standardized Version)

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 28, 2003 2:00 pm 
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krylex wrote:
This has led to a bit of a debate, as the books speak of YHWH in such a different way as they speak of Elohim, and also the fact that Elohim is actually a plural word, that the early Hebrew's might have actually been polytheistic, that is believing in more than one god.


Yeah, I knew about the plural ending of Elohim, I just couldn't remember which name it was that was plural. I'll agree with you that Jehovah is a mispronunciation of Yahweh, I had misheard a word in there. Now, I'm going to say something that may sound a bit paradoxical, but I believe to be true:

God: the father, Jesus: the son, and The Holy Spirit are all one god and at the same time three separate entities. They are combined in one godhead, what one thinks all think, and at the same time they are completely separate beings. If you read the New Testament, there are parts where you will be absolutely certain that it is Jesus talking. And then sudenly he wil say something to the effect of "when I gave my only son for the good of the world. (this is a paraphrase)" It seems to be self-contradictory, but in actuality, it is Christ speaking as the father, himself.

Anyways, to get back on the original subject of the thread (sorry for getting this far off), As I said quite a while ago (a couple months) I personnally believe in God because of a number of things. One being I have felt his direct presence on numerous occaions. Now, will this work as proof for anyone else? No. They aren't me and can't feel what I can. However, another reason which others can see if they look is how it affects me. One example is that recently I had an ingrown toenail. I hate those. They always get infected, and then you can't really wear closed toed shoes well. I always find myself trying to work those out and fix it myself. Well, after about a week of pain, I decided on the fly to include it in one of my prayers. Immediately the next day the infection was gone. Was the toe completely healed? No. In fact, it's still healing. But all that's left is scar tissue now. It's something small that most people wouldn't notice.

Anyways, gotta run to Physics lab. I'm already late.

[edit] Just noticed OE's post. Crucifixion is more than just being nailed to a cross. You are placed out on a hill for the sun to bake you until you die. You die from dehydration and Heat stroke much quicker than you die from malnourishment or hanging from a post.[/edit]

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Last edited by Akuma Kei on Wed Feb 04, 2004 9:06 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 28, 2003 8:59 pm 
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I gotta love Mormonism. Now, bear in mind that I don't nessecarily dismiss the religion as a viable way of life, but the founder got caught kinda short with his claim to have unearthed ancient Hebrew plates:

From Isaiah 14:12 "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!" Now, if you read the rest of Isaiah 14, it's about a Babylonian king who made life difficult on the Hebrews of the time. So, to those of us who associate Lucifer with Satan, it gets a little confusing. Apparantly, however, "Lucifer" (also associated with the Morning Star or Venus) is derived from Latin "lucem ferre" (bringer/bearer of light). In Hebrew, Isaiah 14 describes this king as Helal, son of Shahar, which translates to English roughly as Day Star, son of Dawn.

Now, in the 4th century, St. Jerome translated large chunks of the Bible from Hebrew to Latin, and he used Lucifer instead of Helal. When King James ordered the translation of the Bible into the English version many of us still use today, most of it was taken from St. Jerome's works rather than the original Hebrew, as it was easier to obtain both the Latin text and men who could translate it. So Helal of Isaiah 14:12 has remained Lucifer ever since in the Bible (the weaving of the name Lucifer in with the concept of Satan took place over a much longer string of texts and is peripheral; however, it is amusing to note that the Bible in Revelations especially refers to Jesus as the morningstar--whoever first decided to make Lucifer into Satan made a lot of problems for Christians today trying to defend the consistency of the Bible).

Here's where it gets interesting for Mormons--Joseph Smith supposedly translated the Book of Mormon from a Hebrew text written about 600 BC, in which Isaiah and many other books were copied from the original texts. Unfortunatly, unless he was translating from the Hebrew into Latin and then into English, just for fun, there's no reason that Babylonian king should be called Lucifer in it, and yet he is.

Oops.

Like I said, nothing against Mormonism. It works, as far as religions go. But it's kind of neat to look back and see how Uncle Joey gets caught short with the whole "translated from ancient Hebrew texts" bit.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 28, 2003 10:41 pm 
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My question to you would be where exactly in the Book of Mormon it mentions the Babylonian King? And let me quote here directly from the Bible Dictionary, found in my Quad (A compilation of Bible, Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, and Pearl of Great Price):

Lucifer. Literally the shining one; also lightbringer or Son of the Morning. Lucifer is also known as Satan or the devil. The name Lucifer only appears in the Bible (Isa. 14: 12, but cf. Luke 10: 18)Apparently Lucifer is the name of the Devil before his rebellion and fall. Latter-day revelation clarifies the fall of Lucifer and equates him with Satan.

The Name Lucifer only appears in the Bible. Now, Joseph Smith only translated from hebrew three books. 1. The Book of Mormon. 2. The book of Moses. 3. The book of Abraham. Yes, he translated some of the New and Old testaments, but those were through revelation and modifications of the KJV bible. They were not directly from hebrew sources.

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 Post subject: Please tell me you were joking...
PostPosted: Sun Nov 16, 2003 9:40 pm 
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Akuma Kei wrote:
As I said quite a while ago (a couple months) I personally believe in God because of a number of things. One being I have felt his direct presence on numerous occasions. Now, will this work as proof for anyone else? No. They aren't me and can't feel what I can. However, another reason which others can see if they look is how it affects me. One example is that recently I had an ingrown toenail. I hate those. [snip] Well, after about a week of pain, I decided on the fly to include it in one of my prayers. Immediately the next day the infection was gone. Was the toe completely healed? No. In fact, it's still healing. But all that's left is scar tissue now. It's something small that most people wouldn't notice.

...

I'd consider just leaving this one for MiB, but I really feel I must comment. So God will (partially) heal your friggin' ingrown toenail, yet allows people to die in horrible ways every day, some of them undoubtedly after praying that they will not?

Quote:
Until she said (without any prompting by me) that she had had a wonderful evening and that she thought it was better that we had ended up eating where we did and going out for desert instead. I had enough money left afterwards to pay full tithe, and still have some to spare. Which I will probably use to go on another date.

*gasp*
*choke*
Dear Eris, I'm an agnostic, but I think I'm going to have to sue you on behalf of Yahweh for defamation of character. So it's not that the girl liked you or enjoys concerts, it's that GOD made it His business to make you late to the restaurant, presumably in an attempt to help you get laid.

Worst arguments for the existence of a Creator *ever*.

Akuma Kei wrote:
Now, will this work as proof for anyone else? No.

You seem fairly intelligent and relatively sane, so I'm rather surprised they work as proofs for you.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 16, 2003 9:48 pm 
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If you would note, WI is still in the Calabi-Yau space of HATE, so his comments may seem a bit more harsh than intended.

EDIT: He has now left his HATE space and is in his old one now.


Last edited by krylex on Mon Nov 17, 2003 10:52 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2003 12:16 am 
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First off, ouch man. That was uncalled for. I don't go around saying that you have the worst explanations for multi-dimensional theory, do I?

Secondly, I reccommend you read some of my posts in other threads. If you'd bothered to look in the Abortion thread, you would find that I am adamantly opposed to pre-marital sex. So saying that God was helping me get laid was a false assumption. But more than that, you took my words out of context. I was trying to show an instance of where I had a moral dilema, chose poorly, and instead of getting completely shafted out of the deal, it ended up better than I had originally planned. And yes, I believe that God had a hand in this. I specifically asked for help, and got it.

And as for whether or not the girl like concerts or me, those were givens before the date even happened. Dinner was a pre-concert activity to try and give us a little time to talk and have fun, since I was actually in the concert. But hey, what does that matter?

Do I feel that my ingrown toe-nail is more important than other people who die horrible deaths each day? No. But I don't know about people dying everyday. I was, again, taking an instance out of my life where I had tried everything I could to solve a problem myself, and then finally given up and asked God for assistance, and recieved it.

I question my intelligence all the time. I've had serious issues in the past with feeling under-intelligent despite all signs being opposite. I'm not going to post the reasons here, because they're too personal. And sanity? I've questioned whether or not I really am who I am. I have awoken and seen someone else's face in the mirror, and the worse part is that I know whose face it is.

Maybe proof was the wrong word. Maybe evidence in support would have been more correct. But then, I really didn't need much evidence to be convinced of God in my life. Considering that I have felt His presence, I'd say that everything else was just icing on the cake.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2003 1:33 am 
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That Damn Mormon wrote:
I was trying to show an instance of where I had a moral dilema, chose poorly, and instead of getting completely shafted out of the deal, it ended up better than I had originally planned. And yes, I believe that God had a hand in this. I specifically asked for help, and got it.


A shame so many others don't get that same help. I find it ironic, then, that God would deign to help you pay your tithe rather than, say, one of the hundreds that undoubtably starved to death in Africa in that night, probably quite a few of them Christian.

Seems that God is oddly compulsive if he's doing that...

Yeah, him again wrote:
Do I feel that my ingrown toe-nail is more important than other people who die horrible deaths each day? No. But I don't know about people dying everyday. I was, again, taking an instance out of my life where I had tried everything I could to solve a problem myself, and then finally given up and asked God for assistance, and recieved it.


...look, buddy, you seem smart enough. Let me point out the inconsistancies here.

Apparently, God thinks your ingrown toe-nail is SO DAMN IMPORTANT that he has to drop everything and damn well heal it for you. It was so damn important that it made its way to the top of his list when, as to this there is no doubt, some poor damn Christian somewhere was dying a horrible, painful, slow death and crying out for deliverance.

I'd just like you to think about that for a while. Your idea of God appears to be a rather fickle bastard to me, if he miracle-aways an ingrown toe-nail before healing the sick and starving. I know its a "personal" story but the God you are talking about is supposed to be a bit larger than "personal", I'm afraid, so no dice on that account. If you cannot form a coherent picture of God on a larger scale then "OH MY MY TOE-NAIL HEALED RIGHT AFTER I PRAYED, GOD!!!!" then I'm afraid you have shown yourself as intellectually dishonest.

Mormons...feh! wrote:
Maybe proof was the wrong word. Maybe evidence in support would have been more correct. But then, I really didn't need much evidence to be convinced of God in my life. Considering that I have felt His presence, I'd say that everything else was just icing on the cake.


As a Christian and a preacher, I'd like to say this: the God you describe, when taken to its logical conclusions, is one I'd spit in the face of and attempt to wipe out all worshippers. Such a God isn't worthy of worship; only spite, if, as you mentioned, he puts your fucking toe nail up on the que higher than starving babies.

I mean, can we get out of the realms of the silly and into the realm of intellectual honesty; please analyse what you say before you say it, and the implications.

And now for a quick lecture on the nature of the holy spirit and Jesus.

Kei wrote:
God: the father, Jesus: the son, and The Holy Spirit are all one god and at the same time three separate entities. They are combined in one godhead, what one thinks all think, and at the same time they are completely separate beings. If you read the New Testament, there are parts where you will be absolutely certain that it is Jesus talking. And then sudenly he wil say something to the effect of "when I gave my only son for the good of the world. (this is a paraphrase)" It seems to be self-contradictory, but in actuality, it is Christ speaking as the father, himself.


Besides paradoxical, there are some problems with this.

Back in the first century, when the concept of the Holy Spirit was first written, the word for spirit also meant breath or wind (which was thought to be the breath of God), and had very strong connections to life; to be full in spirit meant to be full of life, of vitality.

Now the nature of said spirit becomes a lot more clear than before, during which it was some vaguely referenced quasi-entity. Jesus' disciples, when it said they were filled with the holy spirit, were then to be said to be ready to live a life of holiness, as Jesus did. Barriers between peoples were brought down as the disciples could speak in all the languages of man, and they went forth to spread the word. You can take that at face value or as heavy symbolism trying to get a point across; the point remains the same.

It should be noted, btw, the idea of evangelism was quite new. Jews stayed to jews, Greek cults to themselves, etc etc. You usually believed in whatever Gods who's temple you were born closest to. So this was quite a big jump from the old, established ways.

Anyway, the point being, the holy spirit is more symbolic of an epiphany as to the proper way to live (ie how Jesus lived; thinking of others always above himself to bring himself happiness.) Erm, a bit clumsily made, but I think the point will get through.

Now, on to the nature of Jesus. You'd be surprised how big an evolution the idea has gone through.

The first biblical new testament writer was Paul. When he wrote about Jesus, it wasn't as the proverbial son of God from birth that we know about today. In his reckoning, Jesus was a man like any other; however, he had been so exceptionally holy, that God had taken him up to heaven upon his death in the crusifixtion and sort of made him his adopted son.

The ressurrection didn't exist in this first account of Jesus, nor his divinity before his death. But later biblical writers changed it a bit, through misunderstandings and disagreements with their predecessors. As far as we can tell, it moved something like this: Jesus was the adopted son of God, Jesus became the son of God during his baptism, Jesus became the son of God at the moment of birth, and then (much later) he became the son of God at the moment of conception.

I dunno about you, but I'd trust the first accounts we have on Jesus more than later accounts. But thats just me.

Anyway, thats all I can drudge up at 12:30am with class in another glorious 6 hours. Take it easy folks.

-MiB

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 Post subject: A random thought.
PostPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2003 1:58 am 
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I was reading the last few posts and a bit of Unfounded Speculation occurred to me which I've decided to share. Part of it winds up coming out on Akuma Kei's side of things, so call me a devil's advocate, but anyway....

When discussions arise regarding whose prayers some hypothetical god may or may not have answered, the concept of a queue and prioritization is often an integral part of such. (Or at least, it came up in WI's and MiB's posts here.) But who's to say that this hypothetical god operates on any sort of system that we could comprehend, much less equate to one of our own?

All I'm saying is, if you're gonna venture into the realm of things that completely break the laws of logic and physics and dance about on their graves singing halleluyah, then the idea that this omnipotent entity (no, not that OmnipotentEntity) took some action A really has no bearing on whether or not they did some action B; if they didn't do B, you can't say it was because they didn't have time to do it because they'd chosen to do A instead - time may have no meaning for them. Similarly, the fact that the recipient of A may have prayed for this to happen is absolutely unrelated; one can just as easily affirm that this all-powerful agent dislikes being asked to do things as affirm that ve thinks such requests are swell and hastens to act on them.

So really, there's not much that people can say to each other on the subject once they've made up their minds. As humans have proved time and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again....

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2003 7:02 am 
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But if you're going to claim God doesn't follow the rules, there is no logical proof he can exist, and thus the discussion is moot.

As I also mentioned, its no God I'd bother worshipping. If he can't be bothered to make some damn sense, whats the point?

-MiB

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2003 4:17 pm 
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But who is to say that what you deem to be sense is the same as what God deems to be sense? God created the laws of the universe, but it is us humans who wrote what was to be logic.

Yevaud wrote:
Part of it winds up coming out on Akuma Kei's side of things, so call me a devil's advocate, but anyway....


So I'm the Devil now? Sweeeeeeet! :evil: :evil: :evil:

What I was trying to say in my previous arguement was that I only really know about things that occur to me. This is not to say that my problems are any more important than anyone elses. Quite the opposite. I actually don't believe that I have much importance at all. Would I prefer that God bend down to help someone else instead of me? Absolutely. Does that mean that I'm not going to ask for help? No. I think that God, in his infinite power, has the ability to help each and every person at the same time. He is eternal, and as such, has all the time in the world to help others. I also, however, believe that everything has a purpose. Which sounds really callous, but who are you to say that those people weren't supposed to die for something to occur one, ten, a hundred or countless years down the road?

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 Post subject: Doan get ye knickers in a twist, laddie!
PostPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2003 6:09 pm 
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Akuma Kei wrote:
Yevaud wrote:
Part of it winds up coming out on Akuma Kei's side of things, so call me a devil's advocate, but anyway....

So I'm the Devil now? Sweeeeeeet! :evil: :evil: :evil:

:-? Don't give yourself so much credit. :P ;-)

I was merely trying to find a vaguely witty way of saying, "Hm, guys, I know I may be swimming against the stream of popular opinion on this one." Sorry if I offended, but as you may have ascertained from the closing line of my post, I tend to find debates of this nature rather pointless and thus treat them more lightly than those of you who actually believe some good or change may come of them.

In any case, carry on....

EDIT: Bah, fine, one last comment:

Akuma Kei wrote:
What I was trying to say in my previous arguement was that I only really know about things that occur to me...

::snippity::

I think that God, in his infinite power, has the ability to help each and every person at the same time.

::snippity::

...but who are you to say that those people weren't supposed to die for something to occur one, ten, a hundred or countless years down the road?

And what MiB was trying to say is that any god with such patently unfair ends-justify-the-means methods is no god he would care to pray to.

Again, deadlock/standoff.

I rest my case.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2003 12:08 am 
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Hmmm... realized that the triple demons might indicate I was angry. Actually, I was far from it, kinda playing around. Sorry about that.

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 Post subject: Ooops.
PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2003 3:32 am 
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Ah, I see. Yeah, I misinterpreted.

Thanks for clarifying. 8)

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2003 9:08 am 
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Yeah, sorry Kei, if a God is omnibenevolent and omnipotent, then he just doesn't do something for "a plan," since he could make it happen anyway.

I mean, why all the song and dance when he can snap his fingers and say "VALA!"?

-MiB
Omnipotent, duh?

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2003 10:22 am 
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If he were to snap his fingers and everything would be fixed, would you be happy? Most people are happier for something they have worked for than something that is given to them. God makes it hard for us so we can grow and learn. I for one would hate to live in a world where anything I wanted was immediately mine with absolutely no effort on my part. I want to earn my happiness, instead of having it given to me and eventually grow tired of it.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2003 10:30 am 
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If he prime motive were happiness, said starving child would not die for a "plan." I doubt the child is very happy, or even has the remotest opportunity to be happy.

Looks like God's plan is just another dumb cop out to me.

-MiB

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2003 11:01 am 
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krylex wrote:
If you would note, WI is still in the Calabi-Yau space of HATE, so his comments may seem a bit more harsh than intended.

Akuma Kei wrote:
First off, ouch man. That was uncalled for. I don't go around saying that you have the worst explanations for multi-dimensional theory, do I?

OK, so perhaps I was channeling a bit of residual MiB from Swap Week ;) I meant what I said though, I was agog that anyone could consider a (did I mention partially-) healed toenail as evidence for intervention by God.

And the *ever* was a reference to the Simpsons' comic-book guy, if you didn't already know.

Now if God has a Plan, and He's omniscient, wouldn't He already be doing exactly what will bring about the best result? Or do you just think there are some variables, like your toe, that don't matter in the long run, which you can intercede with Him to change?

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 Post subject: I'm sorry, I can't help myself....
PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2003 11:03 am 
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Akuma Kei wrote:
If he were to snap his fingers and everything would be fixed, would you be happy? Most people are happier for something they have worked for than something that is given to them.

This may be true, but frankly, I doubt there are any starving children who would push away heaven-sent food just because it came at no cost or effort on their part.

Akuma Kei wrote:
I for one would hate to live in a world where anything I wanted was immediately mine with absolutely no effort on my part. I want to earn my happiness, instead of having it given to me and eventually grow tired of it.

::blink blink::

I'm sorry, why do you pray again? õ_Ô

Didn't the miraculous disappearance of your ingrown toenail deprive you of that satisfying sense of personal effort?

And because I feel bad picking on people without throwing out anything of my own for them to criticize....

About the only defensible reason in my book why a benevolent deity would allow pain to exist is because without pain there can be no happiness. (Gee, this is starting to sound like The Matrix, ain't it? Okay, I'll run with that.) Smith was right in saying that human beings define their lives through suffering and misery to the extent that, no matter how good things get, we always manage to find something to complain and agonize over. Our pain/pleasure scale shifts to reflect our condition and surroundings; as soon as all of one's material needs are taken care of, one's idea of tragedy shifts from "not enough food in my belly" to "not enough friends/money/toys/etc."

That being said, it would seem that a truly benevolent god would at least arrange things so that the majority of human suffering arose from "OHNO, Joe won't go with me to the prom!!!1114" rather than "I am starving to death and I am beaten twice weekly in my attempts to get food." If you want to assert that god just said, "Screw it; they're gonna complain anyway, who cares whether it's over food or friends?" then I would question whether that god deserved to be called benevolent after all.

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"Only he who attempts the absurd
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