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 Post subject: Re: What did the war bring?!
PostPosted: Sun Nov 30, 2003 3:54 pm 
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miho wrote:
George bush may have been a Pratt
BUT he liberated millions of oppressed Iraqis who didn't have what we class as BASIC needs such as freedom of speech Sadam Murdered his own people Kurds and many others.
So what Bush "PUT A SPIN" on the dossier but think back to the joy on the faces of the Iraqis when the statue fell and they beat it with their shoes!


Miho, that makes him great person for liberating another country. However, liberating other countries hardly helps our country, besides making us look like the hero in other nations' (the ones who like us, that is) eyes. We've fallen into the largest deficit we've had (I think, I'm not sure) because of all this war and liberating.

I think what most people are gettnig as is while he's doing all this crap overseas, he's not paying enough attention to the job he was elected to, namely taking care of the US.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2003 10:36 pm 
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It's true that Bush was elected (??) as President to watch for the US's interests, but the country's interests are divided in both local and foreign. It seems Bush's administration believes that solving foreign problems may help dealing with the domestic issues (or diverting attention from, as however you wish to see it). Yet the US, not just Bush, has forgotten an important principle in foreign politics: the right of every country to freely determine, with no external interventions, its destiny, where it wants to go. This principle and its flagrant violation for the past century by US leaders has caused not only military disasters it has also cost it as well sympathy. No matter if they helped found the UN, or have established treaties that apparently solve world crisis, the fact that these have been built mostly upon the safekeeping of their interests and throwing out to the back the rest of the world's concern is what has characterized their policies. Bush's government is probably the most obvious in this line of thought, completely forgetting the diplomatic efforts of his predecessor Clinton to ease worldwide tension.
For now, we just can protest. But the real force that can give him a wake up call, his own people, are still either too busy being hypnotized into his charade of "lets solve world issues US-style" or thinking that only when reelection comes they will voice out their opinion. The moment to act, dare I say, Americans, is now. Go out on the street. Send mail. Just voice your discomfort. :)


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2003 1:15 am 
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The thing is, Bush wasn't popularly elected. The antiquated and outdated electoral college is the reason he's there. Now, I'm not saying that Gore would have done much better. He's not much more than a tree hugging hippie, himself.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2003 5:50 am 
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I don't care if Bush is re-elected or not.
All I care about is whether or not my country and others like it, are prepared to sacrifice the security that US friendship gives us in exchange for more strategic freedoms in the long run.
While I didn't march agains the war I did dislike the furious leg humping that our government did beforehand.

Actor.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2003 12:51 am 
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Krylex-san:
Makes me wonder and to see if anyone may light me on the subject, why Americans have that popular vote and the other type vote (and if it's outdated why you keep it then)??


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2003 7:19 am 
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Subaru wrote:
For now, we just can protest. But the real force that can give him a wake up call, his own people, are still either too busy being hypnotized into his charade of "lets solve world issues US-style" or thinking that only when reelection comes they will voice out their opinion. The moment to act, dare I say, Americans, is now. Go out on the street. Send mail. Just voice your discomfort. :)


I'm completely in favor of what Bush is doing. To hell with appeasement and Clinton-style policies; Clinton took every foreign threat that came along and punted it down the road for his successor to deal with. He ignored repeated terrorist attacks (leading to 9/11), appeased Kim Jong-Il by giving him valuable resources in exchange for empty promises (leading to North Korea now having nuclear weapons), sold missile guidance technology to the Chinese, and was responsible for the debacle in Somalia (not the fact that 18 soldiers died, but that we immediately pulled out of the country after that, leading to such people as Osama bin Laden viewing the U.S. military as a "paper tiger" that would run as soon as it took casualties).

If the U.S. has to suffer 9/11-style casualties to earn the world's "sympathy," and refrain from doing anything about it in order to keep that sympathy, then the rest of the world can take their sympathy and shove it.

As for popular vote vs. electoral college vote, the electoral college exists so that states with small populations aren't completely swamped out by larger states as far as the importance of their vote goes. If not for the electoral college, states like Montana would have a negligible impact on elections; as it is, their impact is still small, but is noticable.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2003 2:41 pm 
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Kylaer-san: thanks for the enlightment there concerning electoral college vote.
It's not that I think Clinton did a better job trying to appease the conflicts around the globe - I think that in many cases he made terrible blunders, not just for US safety-. I think his approach was a wiser one, and one to deliver excellent results on the long run. Bush's approach has only delivered short-term results and the ones to come don't seem so benefitial for US issues, let alone the world's.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2003 3:47 pm 
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The electoral college was implemented because it was initially very difficult to talley the entire votes of the nation of the original states. They created the electoral college to provide a balanced number of votes based on population that would make it easier to count. In todays system, something like the electoral college is extremely antiquated and should be removed, as there is no hinderance on talleying up votes due to increased technology.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2003 7:18 pm 
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Kylaer wrote:
As for popular vote vs. electoral college vote, the electoral college exists so that states with small populations aren't completely swamped out by larger states as far as the importance of their vote goes. If not for the electoral college, states like Montana would have a negligible impact on elections; as it is, their impact is still small, but is noticable.
So if I want my vote to count more I should move to a less populated state?

Doesn't sound very democratic to me. Why not just have everyone's vote count the exact same. I mean who cares if the states are represented, it is the people that matter.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2003 7:58 pm 
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revolutio wrote:
Kylaer wrote:
As for popular vote vs. electoral college vote, the electoral college exists so that states with small populations aren't completely swamped out by larger states as far as the importance of their vote goes. If not for the electoral college, states like Montana would have a negligible impact on elections; as it is, their impact is still small, but is noticable.
So if I want my vote to count more I should move to a less populated state?

Doesn't sound very democratic to me. Why not just have everyone's vote count the exact same. I mean who cares if the states are represented, it is the people that matter.


Wouldn't really help, as the state you move to would have less of a vote itself. So you'd have more say over where your state's vote went, but your state would have less say in the election. What you really wanna do is move to a populated state with low voter turnout. Then you have more say, and so does your state.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2003 9:08 pm 
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Or we could just scrap the electoral college and go with the popular vote, but that would be too easy, now wouldn't it?


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2003 10:38 pm 
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I just noted something today, I was looking at a Canadian financial history chart, We can plow the moment that the Canadian Dollar began to lose ground. I think it was after Eisenhower left office. Only once was there a significant raise, during the Bush Sr. Administration. The Canadian Dollar is on the rise again... could this be coincidence? I could be wrong but that seems like Bush brings the American economy down, this raising the Canadian.

Again, I could be wrong.

EDIT: Spelling

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Last edited by Chaos on Wed Dec 10, 2003 7:49 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2003 11:51 pm 
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COMRADE DOKTUR CHAOS, how goes the 5 year plan?

Uh yeah, its not like there are market cycles, or a free market or anything, its all the president's fault.

I mean i know you Canadians are socialist, but last time I checked you didn't have a planned economy, please stop acting like the US does.

-MiB

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 10, 2003 9:38 am 
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Here's some fodder....

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 10, 2003 10:28 am 
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Quote:
Success has many fathers.
Failure is an orphan.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2003 7:42 pm 
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Considering Krylex-san's idea of scrapping the electoral college: does that mean that the members of such groups cannot be trusted to make wise decisions anymore? I read a bit that such a system also had an ancestor in the Roman republic, where the vote of specially selected commitees would make a choice in case eithe rthere was a very close election or they viewed that the popular vote was ill-given (e.g., to someone who could be considered a danger to the republic). I always wonder if a group can be trusted ith such a complicated task.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2003 7:51 pm 
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Well, the electoral college does vote with the populace, but its not strictly a popular vote. Each state has different ways they divide up their electoral votes. Some states have an "all or nothing" electoral division, like Florida, where the winner of the popular vote of that state gets 100% of the electoral votes. In a situation like that, the population isn't fully represented, but the electors don't make their own vote. They have to vote within their states laws. If the electoral college were scrapped, then the vote would be 100% on the popular vote, which would be a fair representation of the people. With that being said, I don't think I would have wanted Gore in office. He did win the popular vote, however, and I feel he should have been president. Exactly what state we would be in is a different story alltogether.


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