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 Post subject: US might be pumping oil from Iraq to Israel
PostPosted: Sun Aug 24, 2003 8:08 pm 
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From the Drudge Report, linked to-

this

In what I would call a wet dream for Osama, people are exploring the possibility of pumping oil from Iraq to Israel.

Gogo bad PR.

-MiB

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 24, 2003 11:56 pm 
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I would like to second MiB here.

Very stupid thing to do.

You tell the Middle Eastern world its not about Oil and its not about Israel.

Then you pump Oil into Israel.

Bravo.

Actor.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 25, 2003 8:41 am 
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Quote:
Iraqi oil is now being transported via Turkey to
a small Mediterranean port near the Syrian
border. The transit fee collected by Turkey is
an important source of revenue for the country.
This line has been damaged by sabotage twice in
recent weeks and is presently out of service.


Considering how Turkey slammed the door on us re: using our military bases there to launch against Iraq, I can see why we would want to route the oil through a different country than theirs.

Also, having the pipe get sabotaged twice in "recent weeks" would make me want to find a different line also, although I can't see one through Jordan being any safer.

The article says that Haifa has refineries for the oil, but only mentions the Turkish facility as being a "port." If the Turkish spot doesn't have refineries, that would be another major point towards shipping the oil elsewhere. But the article didn't clarify this one way or the other - it only left the question dangling.

But, sadly, how things look seems to be as important a factor these days as what they actually accomplish.

Decisions, decisions.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 27, 2003 8:24 am 
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Turkey refused to allow US forces to use their country as a base during the recent Gulf conflict for a very simple reason; existing political tensions in the region.
They feared that a US inspired Kurdish uprising would be a threat to their nation, as they have a long history of enmity with the Kurds.

The US administration ignored these political circumstances, and took a hardline with Turkey. It seems that their ignorance of the delicate situation in the middle east is to be continued with this pipelining enterprise.
What the US needs to do is to start building bridges with the countries whom its' foreign policy has alienated. It does not need to continue aggravating things by bestowing yet another boon on a government which is widely detested in the region.

Maybe once Israel stops carrying out Airstrikes and Tank assaults on housing estates, and actually builds a lasting peace with Palestine, neighbouring states will feel more fraternal toward them.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 27, 2003 8:35 am 
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Quote:
Maybe once Israel stops carrying out Airstrikes and Tank assaults on housing estates, and actually builds a lasting peace with Palestine, neighbouring states will feel more fraternal toward them.


Uhm, the problem with that bright idea is that Palestine doesn't want peace with Israel.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 27, 2003 9:36 am 
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RedKnight wrote:
Maybe once Israel stops carrying out Airstrikes and Tank assaults on housing estates, and actually builds a lasting peace with Palestine, neighbouring states will feel more fraternal toward them.


If you had ever bothered to read the Palestinian National Charter you'd realize how blind your statement is.

Quote:
Palestine is the homeland of the Arab Palestinian people; it is an indivisible part of the Arab homeland, and the Palestinian people are an integral part of the Arab nation.

Palestine, with the boundaries it had during the British Mandate, is an indivisible territorial unit.

Armed struggle is the only way to liberate Palestine.

Commando action constitutes the nucleus of the Palestinian popular liberation war.

The partition of Palestine in 1947 and the establishment of the state of Israel are entirely illegal, regardless of the passage of time, because they were contrary to the will of the Palestinian people and to their natural right in their homeland, and inconsistent with the principles embodied in the Charter of the United Nations; particularly the right to self-determination.


There, in their own charter, is the denial of the two-state solution.

Further blatant examples of the Palestinian Authority claiming that Palestine should be "from the river to the sea." I don't see two states there...

As for the neighboring states feeling any more friendly towards Israel, don't bet on that happening, ever. The Jews are too useful as a "bogeyman," to distract the Arab populace from the fact that they live in some of the worst-run nations on the planet. The Arab governments make use of this, spewing bile from their state-run news media directed at Israel and Jews in general.

Same as in 19430's Germany; the Jews are the ultimate scapegoat. If a problem can be blamed on them, it diverts the blame from the corrupt leaders that are actually responsible.

See also: my avatar. See that book? It's the Koran. The Koran itself contains vile anti-Semitism, claiming that Jews are the eternal enemies of Muslims and that they are "apes and pigs." Listen to some Friday sermons out of places like Yemen and Saudi Arabia - the imams will be praying for Allah to destroy the Jews.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 27, 2003 12:28 pm 
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The fact that they are responding to bus-bombings should also be a factor.

I don't know about you, but having "restraint" when fuckers are blowing themselves up in busses in my city isn't something I would support.

-MiB

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 27, 2003 1:51 pm 
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the current policy of infltrating in special forces to guide in air strikes is restraint in my book, the thing is they dont' want to storm in and have it look like they've murdered a town (again) as the world is getting less and less tolerant of their actions, the current Project Solid Mirror is going a long way to securing Israel, but it doesn't prevent the problem being there in the first place

moderate Arabs tend to be killed and/or thrown out of power, it's not that useful to be moderate towards Israel, and to an extent for Israeli leaders the smae thing, tho the % of ex-army/ special forces guys in politics there means that's not too likely

Solid Mirror might make the peace process slightly easier for Israel, but the Arab world, as mentioned above, has a valid reason to keep it going for as long as possable, so it's best to set up for a bumpy ride

a little note, the arabs basicly threw their lot in for the great part with Nazi Germany then the Soviet Union, so it's hardly a shock that we've came out of WW2 then the Cold War witha western governmental bias towards the more proactive progressive Israeli state than with eth Arab states, no matter what's going on today lots of stuff that went on over th last few decdes has stacked the chips in Israels political favour

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 Post subject: Ok, let's get something straight
PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2003 5:30 am 
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Right, I'd better clear up my statements before I get involved in some huge hate-war; you see, I'm not big on Hate.

I personally don't give a toss what some militant idiot wrote in the Palestinian national charter. I accept that it will colour people's opinions to see such extraordinarily misguided statements, made in a form which lends them any kind of legitimacy. But innocent people do not deserve to die because this bile was recorded on paper by a zealot.
My assertion is this; regardless of how difficult the process may be, and how deep-rooted the hatreds involved, peace between the Israeli and Palestinian peoples is worthwhile, and must be striven for.

Suicide bombings are disgraceful and unacceptable.
Military campaigns against housing estates are equally atrocious.
But the problem lies in the fact that neither of these sides wants the other to have the last word. If Israeli or Palestininan leaders are unwilling to take their foot off the pedal, and continue tit-for-tat strikes against each other with the obstinate insistance that the other side must be the one to back down, nothing will be achieved.
To quote the first great Socialist, someone has to turn the other cheek.
Someone has to be big enough to take what has happened, analyse it, realise that continued hostilities are doing nothing but prolonging the longest psychotic episode in the history of international politics, and decide to end the fight.

Now I am not in a position to debate the content of the Qu'ran. I don't know enough about it.
But I do know this; the important thing about Holy texts are not the specific content, the ink on the pages. The important thing is the interpretation, by real live people.
A for instance - the Old testament informs its' devotees that, "Menstruating women must be shunned." Now I ask you, can you find a single priest or rabbi who will advertise that little gem? I doubt it - not in the main body of either religion. It's because we recognise it, nowadays, as unreasonable.
Our responsibility, as people, is to other people. It's on each of our shoulders to rise above stupid shit like my Biblical quote above, and find the real principles that matter amongst all the attitude-relics that surround them, in religions that were born hundreds of years ago.
No-one should be an anti-semite. Not because the Qu-ran told them, and not because a politician told them, and certainly not because their Daddy told them. These are things which are foisted upon us by the past, and by other people. We have to choose the right way by ourselves.

My point, in all this, is that you cannot hold the vast majority of modern Muslims responsible for the actions of a few; and that you certainly can't hold them responsible for what a, "Prophet," wrote in the distant past. You can only hold a person responsible for what they do themselves.
So let's forget about hating the Qu'ran, which is a spiritual inspiration to so many, and just concentrate on detesting racist and sectarian thought. That's what the problem seems to be, after all.

And finally, I am aware that the delicate political situation in the middle east stretches back to World War II. It goes even further, actually. But the point is, we have to start navigating this minefield, and working with the people caught up in it, until we can uravel all the shit that has built up. We have to start forgetting these old grudges - if we can't do it, living thousands of miles away from the strife and violence, how can we ever expect those caught in the middle to do likewise?

America likes to be seen as the embodiment of all that's good in the world.
Well, what I tried to say in my post is that they have to be the first to forget the old biases and lead the way. Favouring Israel again in such a public way is a step in the wrong direction. It's not forgive and forget, taking some of the shit away, it's maitain the status quo, putting more shit on.

Come on, USA. If you're really all about a world without fear of violence, start doing something to reduce the Terror in which the innocent bystanders of Israel and Palestine live their daily lives. That would be a better start than settling old grudges with Saddam and taking his oil wells.

I hope I've cleared up my position on this. I'm sure I'll have irritated somebody, but I'll deal with that when it arises.

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 Post subject: Re: Ok, let's get something straight
PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2003 6:30 am 
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RedKnight wrote:
"Menstruating women must be shunned." Now I ask you, can you find a single priest or rabbi who will advertise that little gem? I doubt it - not in the main body of either religion. It's because we recognise it, nowadays, as unreasonable.


dude, i'm talking to one on messenger tight now, i wish i'd read that passage earlier, sheesh, moan moan moan

RedKnight wrote:
And finally, I am aware that the delicate political situation in the middle east stretches back to World War II. It goes even further, actually.


thousands of years etc, see the 'jews sued for gold' thread, just the fact that right after WW2 the British Mandate finaly turned into Israel as they'd been shuffling around for ages in that direction but finally did it, i's a little odd that an allied power favoured a 'nation' that were the victims and who helped out in the war over a bunch of guys who went off withteh Nazis, fair and equal groundwork for a long standing state that does not make, but hey

RedKnight wrote:
if we can't do it, living thousands of miles away from the strife and violence, how can we ever expect those caught in the middle to do likewise?


hey, i was in Ireland when the Omagh bomb went off, that's about as close i want to be to such things as a civillian, peopel just don't like each other sometimes, Israel has intergrated many other peopel in it's borders, look at the armed forces for it's multi ethnicity and (getting close to) equal arab oppertunities) it's just some enclaves are angry about their world position and have a grudge to bear, and if it's something Israel likes it's bearing counter grudges, Nazi hunting anyone?

the political way top bear something like this out s by sitting back and trying to restrain all sides, it blows itself out in the end, even if it needs a bloody stalemate to begin with (see N.Ireland etc) then in th end you'll have a generation to whome gun fights and bombing are rare and horrible thinsg ratehr tahn teh norm, you get more polititions than gunmen and voters than bombers, time is needed mroe than anything else, other nations pushing/pulling at eth combatants usually just causes trouble...

or you just send in a massive peacekeeping force, Israel would react in the same way the UK would in N.Ireland, a big "no thanks, we;'ve got it under control" and flat out not allow it, theyr'e too strong to go Yugoslavia style divided and peacekeeped

but hey, see you at teh barracades

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2003 7:28 am 
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If I also recall correctly, Israel tried the whole "cease-fire" thing a couple times etc. Apparently the terrorists don't like the idea of a cease-fire. My sympathy is with the Palestinian people, but if they cannot get ahold of their own people enough to say "stop blowing yourself up fucknuts, I'd like to keep my fucking home today thx" someone else has to do it. The terrorists won't be persuaded by any peace settlement- they have to be killed or convinced that the whole terrorism thing is wrong first. Israel has tried the soft-handed "lets stop this for a while as a gesture of peace" thing a couple time, with predictable results.

The plain fact of the matter is that too many politically powerful groups in palestine want Israel out.

-MiB

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 Post subject: Re: Ok, let's get something straight
PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2003 9:29 am 
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RedKnight wrote:
peace between the Israeli and Palestinian peoples is worthwhile, and must be striven for.


Of course it's worthwhile. However, it's not possible, at least until the Palestinian terror groups are destroyed, either by the Israelis or (preferably) by other Palestinians - but I don't see that happening in the foreseeable future.

Quote:
Suicide bombings are disgraceful and unacceptable.
Military campaigns against housing estates are equally atrocious.


So destroying a house is morally equivalent to murdering people, in your world view?

Quote:
But the problem lies in the fact that neither of these sides wants the other to have the last word. If Israeli or Palestininan leaders are unwilling to take their foot off the pedal, and continue tit-for-tat strikes against each other with the obstinate insistance that the other side must be the one to back down, nothing will be achieved.


You're right. The tit-for-tat strikes must cease. If Israel wants any chance of peace, they have to break the terror groups decisively. Killing a few Hamas members after each bombing will never accomplish anything; they have to kill ALL the Hamas members -before- the next bombing.

Quote:
To quote the first great Socialist, someone has to turn the other cheek.
Someone has to be big enough to take what has happened, analyse it, realise that continued hostilities are doing nothing but prolonging the longest psychotic episode in the history of international politics, and decide to end the fight.


Here is where it's obvious that your view of the situation is not one that squares with reality. It's nice to say "Give peace a chance," but the fact of the matter is that a significant minority (if not a majority) of the Palestinians do not want peace. They do not want a two-state solution. They want the complete, total, and utter destruction of Israel, with as many Jews killed in the process as is possible.

If Israel were to lay down its weapons, Israel would cease to exist.

Quote:
Now I am not in a position to debate the content of the Qu'ran. I don't know enough about it.


Well, at leat you admit that your position is based on ignorance.

Quote:
But I do know this; the important thing about Holy texts are not the specific content, the ink on the pages. The important thing is the interpretation, by real live people.

A for instance - the Old testament informs its' devotees that, "Menstruating women must be shunned." Now I ask you, can you find a single priest or rabbi who will advertise that little gem? I doubt it - not in the main body of either religion. It's because we recognise it, nowadays, as unreasonable.


Do you have any idea how the Koran is "interpreted" (which, according to the Koran itself, is a crime, by the way; the Koran is meant to be read verbatim, not interpreted)? Do you have any idea what is said during their sermons?

Let me educate you.

From Mecca, the holiest site in Islam:
Quote:
"O God, help mujahidin elevate Islam everywhere. O God, support them in Palestine. O God, destroy the tyrant Zionist Jews, for they are within your power."


From Medina:
Quote:
"O God, strengthen Islam and Muslims, humiliate infidelity and infidels, and destroy the enemies of Islam. O God, give safety to this country and the other Islamic countries."


From the Grand Mosque in Yemen:
Quote:
"O God, support those supporting Islam and disappoint those disappointing Muslims. O God, help our mujahidin brothers everywhere score victory over their enemies. O God, encourage them. O God, destroy the sons of Zion. O God, destroy the Zionist and American enemies of Islam, shake the ground under them, instill panic into their hearts, and freeze the blood in their veins. O God, close the ranks of Muslim peoples and rulers."


From the Umar bin-al-Khatab mosque in Doha, Qatar:
Quote:
"O God, destroy the Jews and their supporters. O God, protect us from their evils.


All those quotes are from just two weeks ago. Let's go back a bit farther, to last month, shall we?

On July 11th, from Mecca:
Quote:
O God, strengthen Islam and Muslims, humiliate infidelity and infidels, destroy the enemies of our nation and religion, and grant safety and prosperity to the country and the other Islamic countries. O God, support our mujahidin brothers everywhere. O God, help them score victory over the unjust Jews and aggressive Zionists in Palestine. O God, destroy the Jews and their supporters. O God, destroy them, for they are within your power. O God, disperse them and make them prey for Muslims."


Same day, from Medina:
Quote:
"O God, strengthen Islam and Muslims, humiliate infidelity and infidels, and destroy the aggressive unbelievers. O God, grant us safety in our homelands and give wisdom to our imams and leaders. O God, support our brothers in Palestine against the usurper Jews. O God, deal with the tyrant, unjust, corrupt, and aggressive Jews. O God, shake the ground under them, instill panic into their hearts, and make them prey for Muslims."


You cannot simply close your eyes, put your fingers in your ears, and say "It's all relative, it's all relative, nobody should be condemned, etc. etc." Your comparison to the quote about menstruation is groundless; that line is ignored today, but the quotes in the Koran claiming that Jews are the eternal enemies of Muslims and should be fought and killed are not.

Quote:
Our responsibility, as people, is to other people. It's on each of our shoulders to rise above stupid shit like my Biblical quote above, and find the real principles that matter amongst all the attitude-relics that surround them, in religions that were born hundreds of years ago.


Spoken like a true We-Are-The-World'er. Only problem with that is that parts of that world are all too willing to kill you, no matter what feel-good lines you spout.

Quote:
No-one should be an anti-semite. Not because the Qu-ran told them, and not because a politician told them, and certainly not because their Daddy told them. These are things which are foisted upon us by the past, and by other people. We have to choose the right way by ourselves.


Unfortunately, anti-semitism is being poured down these peoples' throats on a daily basis, from all of the sources you mentioned.

Quote:
My point, in all this, is that you cannot hold the vast majority of modern Muslims responsible for the actions of a few; and that you certainly can't hold them responsible for what a, "Prophet," wrote in the distant past. You can only hold a person responsible for what they do themselves.


I hold them responsible for their actions - or, rather, their lack of actions. There is a minority of Muslims who are actively working for the establishment of the Dar-ul-Islam ("House of Islam," a world where shari'ah is the only law, Islamic theocracy is the only government, and Islam is the only religion)...and there are a majority of Muslims who are letting it happen with nary a complaint. Where are the "Not In Our Name" groups among the Muslims, protesting against jihad and terorism? Granted, these people do exist...but I've seen the words of maybe a half-dozen. Half-a-dozen is not enough. I hold the majority of Muslims responsible for their tacit approval of jihad.

Quote:
So let's forget about hating the Qu'ran, which is a spiritual inspiration to so many, and just concentrate on detesting racist and sectarian thought. That's what the problem seems to be, after all.


And, if you knew anything about the Koran, you would know that racist and sectarian thought are enshrined in it. See: its hatred of Jews and its claim of absolute superiority of Muslims over non-Muslims.

Quote:
And finally, I am aware that the delicate political situation in the middle east stretches back to World War II. It goes even further, actually. But the point is, we have to start navigating this minefield, and working with the people caught up in it, until we can uravel all the shit that has built up. We have to start forgetting these old grudges - if we can't do it, living thousands of miles away from the strife and violence, how can we ever expect those caught in the middle to do likewise?


You can't simply "forget" that someone wants to murder you. America tried it, by ignoring the attacks of Al-Qaeda during the '90's. The bombings of our embassies, the first World Trade Center attack, the USS Cole --- all allowed to slide away without significant reprisal.

And that led to 9/11/2001

Quote:
Come on, USA. If you're really all about a world without fear of violence, start doing something to reduce the Terror in which the innocent bystanders of Israel and Palestine live their daily lives. That would be a better start than settling old grudges with Saddam and taking his oil wells.

I hope I've cleared up my position on this. I'm sure I'll have irritated somebody, but I'll deal with that when it arises.


We should act to reduce the terror. We should act by giving Israel a free hand in dealing with the terrorists that are attacking it, rather than saying "No, no, it doesn't matter if they're fixed on your annihilation, you have to back off when the yell 'Uncle!' Finishing them off, why, that would be immoral."

One does not convert a true enemy through kindness. True enemies must be killed if they are individuals; if they are groups, these groups must be shattered so that there is no hope of reforming them.

Israel should kill every man who identifies himself as being a part of Hamas, Hizb'Allah, Islamic Jihad, the al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade, and any other terrorist group. That, not appeasement, is what will bring them security and peace - and once Israel is secure, a Palestinian state can rise.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2003 10:03 am 
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Raising my glass to you here Ky, that was beautiful.

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 Post subject: Wow. You showed me, eh?
PostPosted: Fri Aug 29, 2003 5:27 am 
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Nice to see that there's someone out there who's going to try and quote me to death. Well, guess what; still kicking.

So, peace isn't possible, until every single Palestinian militant is dead, eh? Spoken like a true militant. I'm certain that these warped fools you are condemning, quite correctly albeit, say precisely the same thing about their goals. Their safety and sovereignty cannot be guaranteed, they will tell you, until every Jewish invader is dead. Great. Back to square one.

As for property destruction equalling murder, don't play silly buggers with me. I can only assume you are being intentionally childish and legalistic about my terminology.
If not, let me walk you through; when I talk about housing estates, I tend to make the silly assumption that houses are built for people to live in. It's not nice to demolish houses - but it's particularly nasty to attack them when there are people inside. So, no, I don't equate wrecked buildings with broken bodies on the sliding scale of my morality.

I cannot believe that you think the solution to Tit-for Tat strikes is to make Israel's next Tit bigger than the Palestinian terror groups' last Tat.
If a section of one population are fighting against you, and they are subsumed and hidden amongst all the other innocent members of that population, it is impossible to wipe them out at a stroke. You are quick to lecture me on the things which betray the ignorance or impracticality of my ideas, so let me clue you in - the USA has tried this, in Vietnam. What happened there? You're a keen researcher, look it up.

Hey, I'm used to people telling me that my views don't square with reality.
You should try telling a lot of them that people are more important with money, and watch their faces.
But in this case, you might find there is a grain of wisdom in there.
There are other areas of the world in which similar diametric oppositions of ideaology exist.
Since I am already being contentious, and, it would appear, inflammatory, I'll mention Northern Ireland.

Loyalists: We want Ulster to remain a part of the United Kingdom
Republicans: We want Ulster to become part of a united Ireland

You don't get much more black and white than that. Now, granted, peace is still some distance away in Ulster. But the Good friday agreement has brought the region to a point that many people would have called a fantasy, had they heard it described 15 years ago. A power sharing assembly? Sinn Fein and the Ulster unionists at the same table? A ceasefire by the Provisional IRA?
Cloud cuckoo land. The province of we-are-the-world-ers, don't you know (that's actually quite funny, BTW. I think I'll use that somewhere).

The progress which has been made is not down to an intensification of British Military action within the region. It's down to the very costly process of negotiation which has obtained, for this first time in this heretofore intractable situation, genuine compromises.
The same can happen in Palestine and Israel. The leaders on both sides just have to want it enough.

Thank you ever so much for your educational submission on the nature of the Qu'ran. And thank you also for your jibe at my ignorance. I was raised to believe that a person should not attempt to flannel their way
through an argument when they did not have a strong grasp of the facts.
Some people consider it wise to acknowledge one's limitations - I am one of those.

That said, you haven't actually quoted the Qu'ran. You've quoted places in the middle east. Now, I could be faecetious, and ask if towns and cities can talk in your world; but we've already established that would be pedantic and childish. What I would like to know is this - which person issued these statements? Or failing that, which organisation?
It may seem like an irritating and pointless request, but it interests me because we have a fundamental issue on which we differ - you are willing to hold the bulk of Islam to account for the actions of a minority of Muslims, because they do not stop that minority from speaking or acting.

Pardon me, but that thinking is laughable.
Why not blame the people of Zimbabwe for Robert Mugabe's actions? They haven't performed an armed overthrow of him, after all. Or blame all caucasians for the actions of the ku-klux-klan. I must be guilty, I haven't hunted them down and stopped them.

The fact is, that it is no more the responsibility of the average Muslim to decry madmen and extremists than it is the responsibility of us all. We are all people - human beings. It is pointless to create a distinction between ourselves and anyone else, when trying to apportion blame for the actions of a completely different person entirely.
I know this does not fit into the attitude map of your crusade against Islam, but tough. I'm not a big fan of organised religion, but I know better than to mount a charge of the light brigade against these institutions. It's individuals who count, and who must be called to account for their actions - every church or sect encompasses a broad range of individuals with different preferences and opinions, no matter what the common foundation of their philosophy.

Oh, and before I forget, congratulations on conceding that some Muslims do take the time and trouble to speak out against extremists. However, I do not accept that these are only six in number. Perhaps its' time you accepted that, on some issues, you are speaking from a position of ignorance... or, alternatively, you could listen to the recordings of every BBC Radio 4 programme on the subject of Islamic extremism/terrorism for about the last 5 years. As a daily listener to the Today programme, let me tell you that there are a vast number of Muslim clerics and community leaders who, quite publicly, condemn the deplorable actions of the few extremists tainting the name of their faith.

It is not the lack of vigilance on behalf of the USA that led to September 11. It's the hatred they have engendered abroad for their cavalier, "I'm-all-right-jack," foreign policy, and for their manipulations of the region during the cold war.
No one in their right mind denies the horror of September 11. What we disagree on is the right way to move forward. And every bullet fired by a US soldier in the series of colonial punishment missions which Bush has mounted since that day, tips another person over the edge into blind hatred of the USA. Another suicide bomber, perhaps.

I hate to say it, especially to someone with your apparent worldview, but violence breeds violence.
And if Israel, as you suggest, kill every individual associated with these terror groups, then they will only have to let the dust settle before they can see a new rank rise before them - because to acheive this grisly victory, they will inevitably slaughter thousands of innocents.

I'm sorry to say that I believe your opinion is that one that will win out in Israel and the USA, and a mirrored version of it which will prevail among Islamic extremists. "The only solution is to kill them all - after that, we'll think about talking."

Pretty soon, the only way to make sure there are no enemies lurking around the corner will be to Nuke everywhere that isn't the US of A.

Welcome to hell.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 29, 2003 6:42 am 
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AND thus it's probably time this thread was moved ontot the debate section

because you're all giving the muslim arab a headache

(if anyone has any questions i'll answer but AFTER this is moved into debate forum.)


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 29, 2003 8:52 am 
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That said, you haven't actually quoted the Qu'ran. You've quoted places in the middle east. Now, I could be faecetious, and ask if towns and cities can talk in your world; but we've already established that would be pedantic and childish. What I would like to know is this - which person issued these statements? Or failing that, which organisation?


The people he is quoting are the Imams of those Mosques. Since several of these are major mosques the Christian equivalents would be bishops and cardinals.

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Pardon me, but that thinking is laughable.
Why not blame the people of Zimbabwe for Robert Mugabe's actions? They haven't performed an armed overthrow of him, after all. Or blame all caucasians for the actions of the ku-klux-klan. I must be guilty, I haven't hunted them down and stopped them.


You are correct, it is not the job of the common people to take action, it is the job of the government. When the KKK was going around killing blacks the FBI arrested a bunch of them and put them in jail and a few were executed. What has the Palestinian government done about the extremists blowing people up? Nothing.

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It is not the lack of vigilance on behalf of the USA that led to September 11. It's the hatred they have engendered abroad for their cavalier, "I'm-all-right-jack," foreign policy, and for their manipulations of the region during the cold war.
No one in their right mind denies the horror of September 11. What we disagree on is the right way to move forward. And every bullet fired by a US soldier in the series of colonial punishment missions which Bush has mounted since that day, tips another person over the edge into blind hatred of the USA. Another suicide bomber, perhaps.


The actions of the US over the past few decades are not the main source of hatred only an excuse. We did exactly the same thing in central america and southeast asia as well. Are they launching nonstop suicide attacks against us and calling for all of their people to rise up and kill us? No. What’s the difference? Culture. The real root of the problem is what many Muslim leaders have called “Cultural Imperialism”. The main threat of the US to the Muslim world is that their people will start acting like Americans. That’s what they are fighting against, that’s what they will blow themselves up trying to prevent.

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Now I am not in a position to debate the content of the Qu'ran. I don't know enough about it.
But I do know this; the important thing about Holy texts are not the specific content, the ink on the pages. The important thing is the interpretation, by real live people.
A for instance - the Old testament informs its' devotees that, "Menstruating women must be shunned." Now I ask you, can you find a single priest or rabbi who will advertise that little gem? I doubt it - not in the main body of either religion. It's because we recognise it, nowadays, as unreasonable.
Our responsibility, as people, is to other people. It's on each of our shoulders to rise above stupid shit like my Biblical quote above, and find the real principles that matter amongst all the attitude-relics that surround them, in religions that were born hundreds of years ago.


This is a very important aspect of the issue which many non-muslims have a hard time understanding. The bible is not the actual recorded words of Jesus Christ, the Qu’ran is the actual recorded words of Mohamed, the Prophet. Therefore they are the words of GOD himself. As Kyler said, they can’t be “interpreted”, you don’t “interpret” GOD ! If you are a Muslim and say the Qu’ran is not the word of god or that it should be interpreted then you are an apostate and the sentence is death. There are no “if”, “ands” or “buts” allowed. No, not all arabs are fanatic muslims. Yes, Islam actually says its ok to be tolerant of people of other faiths. Never the less, to question the Qu’ran is to automatically be no longer a muslim. To leave the Muslim faith is the worst crime possible and it is the holy duty of all muslims to kill such people on sight.

Honestly, I am not a racist or a religious fanatic. In fact, I'm an athiest and I think all organized religions are stupid. Still, Islam is the main problem. You were talking about seeing thing as too "black and white" but that is how Islam is. I hate to say it what what its going to eventually come down to is the destruction of Islam in one way or another. Either through Muslims giving up their religion under western influence or through Islam giving up some of its core beliefs and becoming a gutted shell of a religion.

Unfortunatly a lot of people are going to die along the way. :cry:


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 29, 2003 9:19 am 
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RedKnight wrote:
So, peace isn't possible, until every single Palestinian militant is dead, eh? Spoken like a true militant. I'm certain that these warped fools you are condemning, quite correctly albeit, say precisely the same thing about their goals. Their safety and sovereignty cannot be guaranteed, they will tell you, until every Jewish invader is dead. Great. Back to square one.


The Palestinian terrorists want to kill all the Jews. The Israelis want to (or should want to - their own self-preservation instincts don't seem to be very strong) kill all the terrorists. Oh, yes, that's so equivalent.

Quote:
As for property destruction equalling murder, don't play silly buggers with me. I can only assume you are being intentionally childish and legalistic about my terminology.
If not, let me walk you through; when I talk about housing estates, I tend to make the silly assumption that houses are built for people to live in. It's not nice to demolish houses - but it's particularly nasty to attack them when there are people inside. So, no, I don't equate wrecked buildings with broken bodies on the sliding scale of my morality.


Bulldozers are not lightning-fast, nor are they silent. There's plenty of time to escape the condemned house. Can you point out an example of someone being killed because they didn't have time to flee?

Quote:
I cannot believe that you think the solution to Tit-for Tat strikes is to make Israel's next Tit bigger than the Palestinian terror groups' last Tat.


The solution is to break the cycle. World War I was not won by grinding away at the enemy in the trenches - it was won after the trenches were overcome by tanks and the battle was taken to the enemy. Since the terrorists are fixated on killing Israelis, the cycle cannot be broken by attempts at peacefulness; that would only be inviting an attack. The cycle can only be broken by wiping out the terrorists.

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If a section of one population are fighting against you, and they are subsumed and hidden amongst all the other innocent members of that population, it is impossible to wipe them out at a stroke. You are quick to lecture me on the things which betray the ignorance or impracticality of my ideas, so let me clue you in - the USA has tried this, in Vietnam. What happened there? You're a keen researcher, look it up.


The U.S. utterly mishandled Vietnam. They tried to fight by grinding away at the enemy's forces in the field, on the enemy's own territory. Modern wars are not won in that fashion; the war must be taken to the heart of the enemy...and in Vietnam, the U.S. failed to do that. If the U.S. forces had attacked the North Vietnamese centers of power, their cities and supply lines and all the things required to make war -- in other words, fought on our terms rather than theirs -- Vietnam would have been won.

Quote:
(long portion on Northern Ireland snipped)
The progress which has been made is not down to an intensification of British Military action within the region. It's down to the very costly process of negotiation which has obtained, for this first time in this heretofore intractable situation, genuine compromises.
The same can happen in Palestine and Israel. The leaders on both sides just have to want it enough.


The IRA still exists. But other terrorist groups that were its contemporaries do not: the Baader-Meinhoff group from Germany, Italy's Red Brigades, the Weather Underground, and Japan's Red Army.

Why does the IRA still exist while these groups have been wiped out? Because the IRA has been negotiated with and these other groups have been hunted. Killing and jailing terrorists destroys terror groups; the results from the destruction of these organizations is the proof. Dozens of Germans did not rise, inflamed, to take the place of fallen Baader-Meinhoff terrorists once the leaders of that group were taken, nor did the Italians or the Japanese. But since the IRA was not dealt with in a similar fashion, since it was treated as an adversary that could be negotiated with rather than an enemy that had to be destroyed, it has survived.

Quote:
Thank you ever so much for your educational submission on the nature of the Qu'ran. And thank you also for your jibe at my ignorance. I was raised to believe that a person should not attempt to flannel their way
through an argument when they did not have a strong grasp of the facts.
Some people consider it wise to acknowledge one's limitations - I am one of those.

That said, you haven't actually quoted the Qu'ran.


This thread contains some Koran quotes. I can get more if you so desire.

Quote:
You've quoted places in the middle east. Now, I could be faecetious, and ask if towns and cities can talk in your world; but we've already established that would be pedantic and childish. What I would like to know is this - which person issued these statements? Or failing that, which organisation?


The imam (preacher) of the listed mosque.

Quote:
It may seem like an irritating and pointless request, but it interests me because we have a fundamental issue on which we differ - you are willing to hold the bulk of Islam to account for the actions of a minority of Muslims, because they do not stop that minority from speaking or acting.


Not only do they not attempt to stop that minority, they do not even speak out to contradict that minority.

Quote:
Pardon me, but that thinking is laughable.
Why not blame the people of Zimbabwe for Robert Mugabe's actions? They haven't performed an armed overthrow of him, after all. Or blame all caucasians for the actions of the ku-klux-klan. I must be guilty, I haven't hunted them down and stopped them.


I haven't seen any Klan meetings recently. In fact, they've been just about wiped out. Hmm...I wonder who was responsible for that...

Quote:
The fact is, that it is no more the responsibility of the average Muslim to decry madmen and extremists than it is the responsibility of us all. We are all people - human beings. It is pointless to create a distinction between ourselves and anyone else, when trying to apportion blame for the actions of a completely different person entirely.


It is the responsibility of us all -- including the Muslims. I am vigilant; are they? Are you?

Quote:
Oh, and before I forget, congratulations on conceding that some Muslims do take the time and trouble to speak out against extremists. However, I do not accept that these are only six in number. Perhaps its' time you accepted that, on some issues, you are speaking from a position of ignorance...


The Muslims who come to see Islam as what it truly is often stop being Muslims. See the author Ibn Warraq, an apostate; his most recent "book" (in fact largely a collection of the essays of others) is entitled "Leaving Islam." The title is rather self-explanatory. So, if I included former Muslims, the number would be significantly higher. See the website Faith Freedom International.

Let it be known, I have no stake in any religion. I'm an athiest, and thus have a stake in living as long and full a life as possible; Islam is the religion that poses the greatest threat to my doing so. That doesn't mean that Islam is the greatest threat; I have a much greater chance of being killed in a car accident than in a terrorist attack. But I will not ignore the problem of Islamic terrorism any more than I would drive without a seatbelt.

Quote:
or, alternatively, you could listen to the recordings of every BBC Radio 4 programme on the subject of Islamic extremism/terrorism for about the last 5 years. As a daily listener to the Today programme, let me tell you that there are a vast number of Muslim clerics and community leaders who, quite publicly, condemn the deplorable actions of the few extremists tainting the name of their faith.


Including those in their very midst? Have you heard, by any chance, of the group "Al-Muhajiroun?" They are a group of Muslims in Britain; the name translates to "The Immigrants."

In their own words, they are a fifth column in the fight for the world-spanning Islamic state

Quote:
Al-Muhajiroun believes that the needs of the Muslims in the West are:

1. The preservation of their Islamic identity i.e. their belief and their Islamic personality
2. The protection of their lives and interests i.e. in terms of security, education and economics etc.
3. The preparation of the people to embrace Islam or to accept the Islamic way of life
4. The preparation of themselves to be the front line of the coming Khilafah i.e. to become strong and united in order to become the fifth column which is able to put pressure on the enemies of Islam and to be able to support the Muslim Ummah world-wide.


Al-Muhajiroun is also the creator of this charming image, found in the "AL JIHAD" section of their website:
Image

Another name to remember with regard to British Muslims is is that of the Finsbury Park mosque, used for terrorism recruitment by James Ujaama and (accusedly) the imam Abu Hamza.

Al-Muhajiroun is set on turning Britain into a shari'ah-based theocracy. British mosques are used as terror-recruitment centers. Does that information get distributed on the BBC?

And yet another concept that one must keep in mind when dealing the Muslims is that of taqiyya (spelling highly variable). This is the act of Muslims lying to non-Muslims in order to achieve a goal, and is permissible as the following hadith shows:

Quote:
Sahih Bukhari 5:369

Allah's Apostle said, "Who is willing to kill Ka'b bin Al-Ashraf [a poet] who has hurt Allah and His Apostle?" Thereupon Muhammad bin Maslama got up saying, "O Allah's Apostle! Would you like that I kill him?" The Prophet said, "Yes," Muhammad bin Maslama said, "Then allow me to say a (false) thing (i.e. to deceive Kab). "The Prophet said, "You may say it."


The group CAIR (Council on American-Islamic Relations) practices taqiyya extensively, spreading their lies about their peaceful intentions and crying "Discrimination!" when people catch them in the act. I say lies because this is their actual intention:
Quote:
CAIR Chairman Omar M. Ahmad, July 1998
"Islam isn't in America to be equal to any other faith, but to become dominant. The Koran . . . should be the highest authority in America, and Islam the only accepted religion on earth."


Quote:
It is not the lack of vigilance on behalf of the USA that led to September 11. It's the hatred they have engendered abroad for their cavalier, "I'm-all-right-jack," foreign policy, and for their manipulations of the region during the cold war.
No one in their right mind denies the horror of September 11. What we disagree on is the right way to move forward. And every bullet fired by a US soldier in the series of colonial punishment missions which Bush has mounted since that day, tips another person over the edge into blind hatred of the USA. Another suicide bomber, perhaps.


"Oh, overbearing Yanks, they had it coming to them."

Then explain Bali.

Jihad, of which today's terrorism is a facet, is not merely targetted at Israel or the U.S. It is targetted against the entirety of Western civilization. Israel is the first target, because it's the closest and easiest to hit. America is the second, because it is the largest and most symbolic. But no nation that is part of the Dar-ul-Harb (House of War -- parts of the world not dominated by Islam) is safe. Not Australia. Not India. Not France. And not England, either.

Be careful. Study until you know the enemy. I truly don't want to see England suffer a 9/11-style or Bali-style attack because they refused to realize that the threat is just as real for them as it was for us.

Quote:
I hate to say it, especially to someone with your apparent worldview, but violence breeds violence.


Yep, those Japanese and Germans are sure violent right now, aren't they? Why, every day they're seething and trying to launch vengeance attacks on the U.S. and its World War 2 allies.

Quote:
And if Israel, as you suggest, kill every individual associated with these terror groups, then they will only have to let the dust settle before they can see a new rank rise before them - because to acheive this grisly victory, they will inevitably slaughter thousands of innocents.


See my part above about how killing terrorists destroys terror groups. You could also refer to my bit directly above -- innocents were slaughtered in vast numbers in World War 2, yet that situation stabilized...after decisive victory.

Quote:
I'm sorry to say that I believe your opinion is that one that will win out in Israel and the USA, and a mirrored version of it which will prevail among Islamic extremists. "The only solution is to kill them all - after that, we'll think about talking."


The only solution is to kill those who are willing to kill us. I truly hope that you are right, and my vision does prevail in the U.S. and everywhere else in the Western world.

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Pretty soon, the only way to make sure there are no enemies lurking around the corner will be to Nuke everywhere that isn't the US of A.

Welcome to hell.


10 on the hyperbole, 3 on actual impact.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 29, 2003 10:20 am 
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ok, stop me if this idea has been presented, but I just got sick of hearing it all....


take one thermo-nuclear weapon, place it in Jeruselum, walk FAR away, push deatonator, roast marshmellows and weiners over ensuing flames

that's the only failsafe idea I have, anyone else?

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 29, 2003 10:29 am 
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For a more specific to this thread solution you could just put one in Kylaer's house. But I'll leave that to the Islamic Militants that are hellbent on killing him and the rest of the world.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 29, 2003 11:28 am 
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BDM05 wrote:
take one thermo-nuclear weapon, place it in Jeruselum, walk FAR away, push deatonator, roast marshmellows and weiners over ensuing flames

Ever thought about the fact that a theard (33%) of Jerusalem population is muslim?
Red Knight: I have a friend that think the same way you do. Only he's reasonable enough to aknowlage the fact that they need a reason for not killing us (I'm from Israel). I won't do your work for you (because you're an arrogant pacifist), but I'll give you a pointer on how to improve your arguments: Everything is happening out of pollitical Interests. You need to convince the pallestinian polliticians that there is more gain in peace, then in war.
Another thing: NOBODY ever died when Israel destroid those terrorist houses.
Kylaer: Thanks for your support. But you forgot one thing, to look through the other sides eyes. Meny of the pallastinians are poor and homeless, they have nothing to lose. The terror organizations know this, so they give money to the famillies of the suucide bombers. If the problem is to be solved, the situation must be changed.
Another thing you guys probobly don't know: When I whatched the news today, among other things, there were pictures of teenage pallastinians throwing rocks, sticks, and molotove bottles on tanks. Even though they didn't made a dent in the tank's armor (well, we are talking about the best tanks in the world here), you can underatand how those guus feel about Israel. Before Red Knight will have the chance to ask "Why was there a tank in the first place?": I don't know. The prime minister didn't saw it fit to feel me in, all I can do is guess. My guess, is that it was helping a group of soldiers to blow up an explosive lab.

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