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PostPosted: Fri Aug 29, 2003 12:22 pm 
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If I remember correctly, tanks and infantry are supposed to work together as a team in urban combat. Infantry can do urban combat by themselves but with Armor support it goes much easier.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 29, 2003 2:39 pm 
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oh, I do wolfy, but if THE holy place that everyone is fighting for is destroyed, then they don't have anything to fight over

and with that I will not speak anymore in this thread, because this topic saps my strength

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 29, 2003 4:04 pm 
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Barghest wrote:
If I remember correctly, tanks and infantry are supposed to work together as a team in urban combat. Infantry can do urban combat by themselves but with Armor support it goes much easier.


the tanks are usually there less for combat, more for 'observation' or area denial, they'dd drive a few in, fire off a few hundred rounds of machinegun ammo and suddenly everyone will stay indoors unless they want to trade rocks for 7.62mm

note how modern urban combat Israeli tanks are covered in camers and vision slits well over and above 'normal' western MBTs

yeah, you need Infantry to support the tanks in urban combat operations and they have them in APCs or on call if things kick off, problem is that tanks need a hell of a lot more to kill them than an IDF recruit, unless they really need men in the streets a tank is a far better way to project power in a low intensity situation

as a side note, not only do Israel have some of the best tanks in the world (that is to say the best in some areas, not so much in others, but all round up there with the best) but they also have some of the world's best crews with top training schools, overall tanks and crews could be the best in the world, i mean, how many armoured combats have they lost ever? not many...

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 29, 2003 4:24 pm 
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Its not about Jerusalem for the Muslims except that its important to the Jews.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 29, 2003 4:46 pm 
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ahem, Crusades anyone? *everyone* wants Jerusalem, sheesh

(not me, i just wand a missile silo deep in the ground somewhere, prehaps on a remote island)

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 29, 2003 4:53 pm 
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 29, 2003 5:25 pm 
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Eep! That was a long set of threads...I only planned to read for 30 minutes, it's been more than an hour!

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 30, 2003 4:05 am 
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Ollie, I have to correct you: Merkava mark 4, the new Israely tank, is the BEST tank in the world.
Israel have other great peices of millitary equipment. We even wanted to sell a few jets to China, but becouse they were better then the U.S. jets, the U.S. didn't allow the deal to take place. If you want more information in this matter, just ask.

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 Post subject: far be it from me to buck the Right Wing trend
PostPosted: Sat Aug 30, 2003 5:31 am 
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Hello again all; I thought this thread had moved to the Debate forum.

Oh well.
Thank you, Werewolfy, for your comments.
Also to Kylaer, for surpassing me in the long post stakes - no mean feat, I thought.

Guys, we are not going to convince each other by diametrically opposed argument. I just don't agree with your opinions. I was at the point of quoting Mu'tazili Muslim philosophy, when I thought: "What's the point? I'll just get told that not enough Muslims think this way, and that it's another pipedream of mine to think that the movement may grow."

If it is a concrete fact that Israeli govt action against Terrorists has never killed any innocent people, then I defer to you on this point.

But in general, I refuse to accept that Muslims the world over are responsible for the actions of the few extremists. Sorry, but that's just the way I see it.

Of course, politics play a major part in whether or not there can be a peace settlement. I'm not naive; just idealistic. I said almost precisely the same thing already, in that both sides have to want it enough. the reasons they may desire peace will probably be those that they can justify to themselves as personally advantageous.

But all this said, I'm the one who stated earlier that tit-for-tat will get us nowhere; I'm also the one who said that compromise was required for peace. So I'm calling for mini-peace on this thread. It's not significant in the context of the wider world, but it is practising what I preach.

Kylaer:
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Let it be known, I have no stake in any religion. I'm an athiest, and thus have a stake in living as long and full a life as possible.


Well, there's some common ground we have. I may not like your suggested methodology, but that difference is insoluble. I might as well accept that your mind will never be changed, and instead reassure myself that you at least believe you are doing the right thing, although that will be cold comfort indeed if your compatriots set the world alight.

And in defense of the BBC, yes, the existence of these shady individuals and their activities is well documented in their annals, and throughout the UK press. I was merely trying to show that there is a voice of moderacy which is strongly and regularly expressed by Muslims, at the very least in this country.

Taqiyya, incidentally: everybody lies at some point. This is no surprise. But as you point out, that's a hadith...not Qur'an, so not the unassailable word of God. Just a related story.

Anyway, I'm getting drawn back into this, when I really wanted to draw a line under it. Better men than we, both Right-wing and Left, have put their minds to this problem, and no solution is yet apparent.

Let's agree to disagree, shall we?

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 30, 2003 7:17 am 
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Werewolfy wrote:
Ollie, I have to correct you: Merkava mark 4, the new Israely tank, is the BEST tank in the world.
Israel have other great peices of millitary equipment. We even wanted to sell a few jets to China, but becouse they were better then the U.S. jets, the U.S. didn't allow the deal to take place. If you want more information in this matter, just ask.


the mk4, is it in full production yet? thought it wasn't goint to be inuse untill next year... anyway, the US/Israel technology swapping is something that does give Israel an edge over most other domestic industries, it goes both ways obviously (note US MBTs that use British composite armour)

also it's not a conventional MBT, being able to carry an infantry section over and above it's notmal combat load, gread for urban ops, not so great as a normal MBt, probably why it's not up for exportion where as the mk3 is available, the fire control system does look good on it, i'm suspicious f the armour being 'the best in the world' next to the established best, British Chobham composite

could be the new best in the world for a new era of Battle Tanks, or it could just be a weird regional development to specific combat requirements, we'll have to wait and see what everyone else does

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 31, 2003 9:35 am 
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Redknight, you're missing the main point Kylaer made (and this time I think its his fault for being a little clumsy with his points.)

Namely that you cannot make peace with terrorists. You either kill them all or wait until they all blow themselves up in busses. The terrorists arn't really out for a palestinian state- if a palestinian state was their goal, they'd have stopped killing a long time ago and there'd be a palestine. Unfortunately, they want the jews out more than they want peace or a homeland, so go figure.

That was the big point, one you seemed to be ignoring through most of this debate.

Ollie: Whats so wrong with the M-1? I thought that one looked pretty neat, especially the aiming system etc.

Incidentally, I'm back from sin city, it was fun and all but I'm glad to be home.

-MiB

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