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 Post subject: Artificial Intelligence
PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2003 3:57 pm 
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Is it possible? Is it wise to create it? What about Frankestain (hope I spelled it right) complex*? Do you give a damn?
Let's talk about it.

*= People that suffer from this complex, belive that the computers will take over the world. IE: Matrix, Terminator.

(I hope I won't get raped by a goblin for this, but I have to take my chances.)

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2003 6:04 pm 
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AI is a good thing. Thinking that we can create something that will become truly sentient is just stupid. We can hopefully successfully recreate a good deal of lower level intelligence soon, but sentiency is a pipe dream in my opinion.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2003 6:20 pm 
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I agree that total sentience is probably impossible (or close enough anyway) so there probably isn't anything to worry about there. But creating a program that can intelligently gauge various factors and adapt accordingly on its own would provide an invaluable tool.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2003 8:39 pm 
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Our minds are nothing but Advanced Computers with the correct programming. There is no reason that a properly programmed binary computer can't do the same things as a human mind. Anyone who argues otherwise doesn't want to come to grips with the fact that humans, intelligent as they are, are not unique and uncopyable/unsurpassable.

And I don't want to hear "but humans have free will, that can't be emulated." That's assinine, the human mind has nothing to do with quantum mechanics. So if put in a very specific situation someone will choose the exact same thing everytime. This is because humans are ruled by physical law. Same Inputs + Same Program = Same Outputs. There is no uncertainty.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2003 9:05 pm 
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I'm not saying that we cannot be duplicated. I'm saying that we cannot do it. To create our current intelligence would require something more intelligent to set it up. A computer can be programmed to program a simpler thing, but it cannot program something more advanced than itself. Maybe sometime down the road, a more evolved, hyper-intelligent humanoid will be able to produce current human intelligence, but I highly doubt that even they could replicate their own or make something more intelligent than themselves.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2003 10:07 pm 
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krylex wrote:
I'm not saying that we cannot be duplicated. I'm saying that we cannot do it. To create our current intelligence would require something more intelligent to set it up. A computer can be programmed to program a simpler thing, but it cannot program something more advanced than itself. Maybe sometime down the road, a more evolved, hyper-intelligent humanoid will be able to produce current human intelligence, but I highly doubt that even they could replicate their own or make something more intelligent than themselves.


Ah, but you forget that human society *as a whole* is more complex than any single individual human. Thus, humananity, considered collectively, *could* conceivably create a being as intelligent as one individual human - however, no one person would be able to understand how this AI worked.


Last edited by IcyMonkey on Thu Aug 28, 2003 10:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2003 10:10 pm 
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That would require humans working together as a whole, which, at this juncture in time, is wholly impossible.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2003 10:11 pm 
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krylex wrote:
That would require humans working together as a whole, which, at this juncture in time, is wholly impossible.


Not necessarily. It may only require a team of a few hundred specialists cooperating with each other. Each person would focus on a particular aspect of the AI's functioning, and thus, while each individual within the team would not understand how the entirety of the AI worked, the team, considered as a collective entity, would. Keep in mind that even a lot of current technology is too complex to be comprehended by a single person, and is actually the product of just such a team effort.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2003 10:14 pm 
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Artificial Intelligence is not possible.
It would kill itself upon creation to save time.
Failing that it would use the internet to learn more about humanity.
And probably post to message boards.
Which does not compute at all.

Actor.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2003 10:29 pm 
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krylex wrote:
I'm not saying that we cannot be duplicated. I'm saying that we cannot do it. To create our current intelligence would require something more intelligent to set it up. A computer can be programmed to program a simpler thing, but it cannot program something more advanced than itself. Maybe sometime down the road, a more evolved, hyper-intelligent humanoid will be able to produce current human intelligence, but I highly doubt that even they could replicate their own or make something more intelligent than themselves.


You can create code that creates more complicated code, microprossesors nowadays aren't made by hand, but set up by programs that are run on less complex micropressesors. Because a human mind is simply a large program that can program itself, it is possible to create a more complex thing from a less complex thing. (Don't forget the old saying, "there is no limit to human creativity")

And just think about where we came from, (evolved from less complex things).

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 29, 2003 3:16 am 
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Why all of you say that we will create an AI? I think it's possible for AI to evolve. Anybody here remmember project 2501 from Ghost in the Shell? Let's take the internet; There is a HUGE amount of information floating around. If a program was tasked to collect it, ther's a chance that in time it will become sentient.

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 Post subject: I have to go to school now.
PostPosted: Fri Aug 29, 2003 4:14 am 
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Sorry to pull in a reference from Star Trek (and of which I don't even understand completely), but let's take the android Data for example (Even though he started out sentient [and then you have to go by certain definitions]). Though it's 'made up' technology, Data had a 'postironic brain'. Nevermind, I'm not quite sure what I'm talking about. My point is, if something was created with the capacity to grow... but that's kinda like creating an AI in the first place. You see, I'm kinda struggling with the exact definition of AI. But whatever.

Anyway (even though it's not really a point), a mere program that was set to collect information would probably not be enough. (And you probably were thinking about that Werewolfy, but were only putting it out as a general idea). Lots of information is good, but that's just like memorizing. It takes a good amount more to reach the application of that knowledge.

...but whatever. Structure first, then try to let it learn. It'd be a huge step to even make an AI of a chimpanzee or something. But I'm just typing out something frantically before I have to leave for school. I want a phaser.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 29, 2003 8:21 am 
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Werewolfy wrote:
Why all of you say that we will create an AI? I think it's possible for AI to evolve. Anybody here remmember project 2501 from Ghost in the Shell? Let's take the internet; There is a HUGE amount of information floating around. If a program was tasked to collect it, ther's a chance that in time it will become sentient.


No, not really. If a program was tasked to collect it and incorperate it into itself there is a chance (albeit a small one). But collecting and assimilating are two different things. If it were simply to collect it it wouldn't examine it. And it wouldn't be available to itself for use. Not to mention it's in a completely different language. If the infomation on the internet was translated into machine code, and then the task was to index it and refer to it on occation for a task, then maybe floating somewhere in the vast internet is all the parts of an AI. But still, very chancy.

I've heard arguments that sencience is based on language, that without a complex language sencience cannot form, think of it this way. We can write book so that a computer recognizes that it is meant to display "book" on the screen (in the proper context). It's really easy: 01100010 01101111 01101111 01101011 However, we cannot write book (yet) so that the computer understands it as a book, and not a text string to display. When we figure out how to sufficiently discribe something in machine language, then we are very, very close to achieving AI.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 29, 2003 9:57 am 
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I read a book written by a guy that think's the same way you do; that you can't get a computer to understand what his actually doing. I don't agree.

Definitions you say? Well there are two meenings to AI. The first is his 'intelligence', can he do what I tell him to do? This kind of AI needs a computer that can program itself. The second meening is the 'will' of the computer. Is he 'wanting' to do things?

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 29, 2003 10:15 am 
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You can think of it this way. Why do we want what we want?

There is a thing called Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs, it's a pyramid scheme with baser things like Food, and Water at the bottom. And Self-Actualization at the top. I think it goes something like Bodily Needs -> Security Needs -> Social Needs -> Ego Needs -> Self Actualization

Everything we do fits into one of these catagories. It's our "programming" if you will. The only reason why we do what we do is because it's trained into us. And all training is is an advanced form of programming.

I didn't say that it impossible to do it. Just difficult. And I outlined it as a goal for any researcher in the AI field.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 29, 2003 10:23 am 
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OmnipotentEntity wrote:
There is a thing called Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs, it's a pyramid scheme with baser things like Food, and Water at the bottom. And Self-Actualization at the top. I think it goes something like Bodily Needs -> Security Needs -> Social Needs -> Ego Needs -> Self Actualization.

Never heard of it. Do you have a link to somewhere that explains it?

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 29, 2003 10:26 am 
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Just google "Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs" in quotes.

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 Post subject: Like this thread...
PostPosted: Sat Aug 30, 2003 1:20 am 
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This is an interesting one - it's been floating around for a while, but I've never had a discussion in which anyone could completely discount the possibility of humanity creating a self-surpassing AI.

The fundamental thing, which OmnipotentEntity has touched upon, is a computer program's ability to understand concepts. This is the key component of self-awareness; one of the most basic ideas which we assimilate as humans is the fact of our own existence. We are able to recognise that there is an us.

For me, understanding what a book is, not being able to identify it or display the word on screen, is only a hop, skip and a jump away from real sentience. To understand a book's place in the world is to recognise that it exists - it's more meaningful that simply a reaction to it's presence.
Any robot with a camera can be programmed to sense a block and move to avoid it - but it could not, simply by examination, describe the block and its' significance in the world. We could programme a machine to do this, but that would be to miss the point.

The key issue is realisation on the part of an AI - when it can concieve a spontaneous, unprompted thought about the nature of the world around it, then sentience will be on the agenda. The difficulty is in designing a programme which is capable of physically making that step forward on its' own.
Such an act would be the definition of a less sophisticated programcreating a more sophisticated one - the transformation of an AI from non-sentient to sentient in a single, unaided step.

Does anyone think it is possible to create a program with a critcal mass of intellectual capacity, that could take this final step alone? Or by definition, can only sentient things come to understand sentience?

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 Post subject: Re: Like this thread...
PostPosted: Sat Aug 30, 2003 1:35 am 
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RedKnight wrote:
The key issue is realisation on the part of an AI - when it can concieve a spontaneous, unprompted thought about the nature of the world around it, then sentience will be on the agenda.


How can an AI do this when even human beings can't?

Cerainly none of our thoughts are "spontaneous" or "unprompted". They're the results of very specific neurological processes - electrochemical "programming", if you will.

By the way, I could post something about Godel's Incompleteness Theorem here, but I'm waiting for WI to get in here and explain it himself, since he's certainly better informed in such matters. (I still haven't started reading GEB, sad to say. :oops: ) However, if he doesn't within the next few days, I'll just post something about it myself.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 30, 2003 4:00 am 
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I've read a lot of your discourse in the, "Does God exist," thread, Icy, and find myself in close to universal agreement, so should probably know better than to argue a point like this with you, but... :)

Referring briefly back to the Occam's razor procedure, is it useful in the context of our daily lives to accept the implications of what you have said here?

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Cerainly none of our thoughts are "spontaneous" or "unprompted". They're the results of very specific neurological processes - electrochemical "programming", if you will.


If we go down this road, aren't we veering toward determinism? Essentially, we are saying that our responses are completely predetermined by our, "programming," and if the same is true for all human beings, aren't all of our interactions since the dawn of time already set in stone? Obviously, natural events and other, "outside," stimulus come into play...

What I'm trying to say is that when a computer, independent of direct human suggestion, can conceive of its' own existence, it will define exactly what it means to be a sentient AI; in the opinion of the forum readers, is this possible?

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