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 Post subject: Should Younger Children Be Sentenced To Life?
PostPosted: Mon Sep 08, 2003 12:27 pm 
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From unrelated. Should a kid around the age of 14 be held responsible for, say, murder, and be sentenced to life in prison or (gasp) death?

I say yes...there is acting like an adult and acting like a member of any working society. By the age of 5 or 6 the kid should know what is expected of them. Things like murder cannot be blamed on the parents wholly- the kids also know what they are supposed to do and what their responsibility as a member of said society is.

Anyway, my 2 cents.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 08, 2003 12:51 pm 
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I say no to take my original post

Hmmm... for the 16 year old, perhaps, but giving a 14 year old life seems like idiocy to me. Children aren't allowed a great many things and have to listen to their parents for a reason. They are not EXPECTED to be fully responsible for their own actions. They aren't expected to be able to keep reality and fiction apart as well as adults can, which is WHY GTA3 is forbidden to them. They aen't expected to fully understand the consequences of shooting someone, which is WHY they aren't be allowed to have gund. They aren't expected to understand the way a state works, which is WHY they are not allowed to vote. (all of these things ae EXPECTED to be known by adults. Whether that is TRUE, remains another matter) The blame goes for a large part to the parents. THEY fucked up most of all, since children can't be expected to act like adults. If some parent puts her 12 year oldyear old behind the wheel, tells him to drive and the kid squashes a pedestrian, the PARENT is the one taking the full blame. The kid cannot be held responsible for his actions. Anymore then retarded people can. (after all, aren't retarded people described as 'having the mind of a child')


Children are not adults. Responsible behaviour is a distan goal, not something you can realistically demand of them. That is why parents are granted power over them. If a parent feels that his child has detoriated to such a degree (perhaps through no fault of the parent) he must come out and 'take his hands off the affair' If you CHOOSE to be the guardian fo the child, YOU'RE the one that has to take the main flak for the mistakes the child does. The child can't be expected to make the right choices, so YOU must make them for him until that time comes. If you fail that, that's criminal negligence. Your car is your responsibility because it cannot make a choice at all in what it does, your children are because they cannot make a moral choice like an adult can.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 08, 2003 1:16 pm 
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Yes to both. You know by the time you're ten. Hell, murdering someone you know by the time you're eight.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 08, 2003 2:05 pm 
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Half of their projected life expectancy, based on the best available data. The other half of that would go to the parents. Unusual? Yes. Effective? Yes.


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 Post subject: No GTA-related smackdown? :(
PostPosted: Mon Sep 08, 2003 2:26 pm 
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Oh. When you said you were moving it to Debate Club, I thought you meant the question of whether Take Two had any culpability for that shooting. Damn, and I was so set to kick personal-responsibility-denying, over-litigious ass all over the place...

As for the actual topic, I think the most important thing is to have a large flex zone in which it can be taken on a case-by-case basis. Any attempt to set a definite point is somewhat arbitrary. If the judge assigns a punishment which does not fit the crime or the defendant, it can be appealed.

Eronarn wrote:
Half of their projected life expectancy, based on the best available data. The other half of that would go to the parents. Unusual? Yes. Effective? Yes.

Fair? Not if the parents are decent, and the child, through the random whim of the universe, turns out to be a bastard* regardless.

* In the ethical sense, not the literal one.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 08, 2003 2:32 pm 
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If he's that much of a bastard, the parents should have taken him in for counseling. Remember, there is generally a trial involved- so a jury would decide whether the parents are negligent or not. It's not always the same sentence for the same crime.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 08, 2003 2:56 pm 
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I am on the no side for reasons already stated.

Now I shall do a jig.


*Jiggity jiggity jiggity jig*


Thank you.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 08, 2003 5:09 pm 
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Eronarn wrote:
Half of their projected life expectancy, based on the best available data. The other half of that would go to the parents. Unusual? Yes. Effective? Yes.


Unfortunately there are constitutional amendments that forbid cruel and unusual punishment. ^^

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 08, 2003 5:11 pm 
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And those should be removed, because cruel + unusual often = effective.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 08, 2003 6:04 pm 
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I think abortions should be legal up through Middle School.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 08, 2003 6:33 pm 
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Personally, I think for Life, yes, for Death, no.

You can always be paroled for a Life sentance.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 08, 2003 8:29 pm 
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In Idaho, they're making a list of offenses minors are automatically charged as adults on. I'll have to dig up the article (if my sister didn't already take the paper out to the recycling bin >.<;; )

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2003 8:14 am 
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While I dont think any state save Texas would put children to death I have to think that a kid of 14 who commits murder, I'm talking murder not manslaughter but murder shuold be tried as an adult.

At 14 you know right or wrong and you choose. If your parents didnt give a rollicking shit about you, you would still have exposure to the rest of the world, killing is still pretty much depicted as wrong. Sure the guys in the movies do it all the time, but they are often times shown fleeing because what they did is wrong.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2003 3:04 pm 
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I found that article on juveniles getting automatic adult sentences. I personally agree with giving juvenlines adult sentences, if the crime fits.

Front Page, beginning of Article
Continuation of article
Second half of article

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2003 8:45 pm 
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Let's take this all one step further.
1. People can be smarter/have better judgement/be more "mature" than other people of the same age.
2. The reason parents have control over their children until the age of 18 is because, ostensibly, the children are not mature/smart/good-judgement-y enough until that age.
3. This idea must be flawed, because age is merely one factor in maturity.
4. The argument goes that you cannot test maturity, but I would argue that such a test would be more accurate than the arbitrary distinction of age.
5. Leaving aside the question of whether free will exists, the implication of child-control laws is that children are less than intellectually/mentally "free" to decide their actions. Regardless of #4, I have shown that children under the age of 18 do not necessarily not possess the qualities associated with "free will" of thought.
6. Granted, a four-year-old may not be expected to have knowledge of the fact that murder is "wrong" (note, I don't say understanding). But when normal adults don't understand that they're doing something wrong, that is (apparently) no excuse. In fact, our society tends to believe that things are generally wrong, period, no matter the reasoning. I don't quite understand the difference.

Well, that was rambling, but I have homework to do now.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 10, 2003 4:13 pm 
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Ryven's article mentioned a group of kids being waived for beating an elderly man and stealing his collection of commemerative quarters. Maybe I'm wrong on this, but that doesn't sound like an adult crime at all. It sounds like a schoolyard bully crime. What did they do with the quarters? Go to the arcade? Use them for laundry? For crying out loud, they're quarters! Granted, something should be done, but not at an adult level. This seems to me to be one of the most juvenile crimes out there.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 10, 2003 11:02 pm 
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So the whole beating the old man to DEATH part should be lessened 'cause they just stole quarters? Just because they did something childish doesn't mean that you can just forget the use of lethal force. They took a life. They didn't have to kill the old man, but they did. And if they took the quarters to an arcade, then that makes it even worse. They show no remorse for the crime they have just committed. If they're capable of killing people in cold blood just as well as adults, then they should get the adult punishment for it. Not some sissy juvenile slap-on-the-hand.

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Last edited by Ryven on Thu Sep 11, 2003 4:06 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2003 2:25 am 
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I for once, agree with the old jew way of justice. It's work like that: up 'till your 13 your a kid that doesn't know right from wrong. When you become 13, there is a big celebration (Bar Mizva. Translation: an age in which rules are aplied to you)... After that, you are presived as an adult in every matter.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2003 7:57 am 
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Much heart at the old jews there.

Curious, Werewolfy- is that Israeli law as well?

-MiB

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2003 3:40 pm 
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Eronarn wrote:
And those should be removed, because cruel + unusual often = effective.


God bless you, Robert Heinlein.

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