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PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2003 3:48 pm 
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Ahh, yes. I think ten lashes in the middle of the town would be a good punishment for crimes.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2003 5:34 pm 
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Ahhh, whooops. That would be my fault. I misread the article. I thought it said they only beat him, not to death. In that case, yeah, putting that little of a value on a life would definitely be an adult crime.

Edit: On a second, more careful read, I found that there is actually no mention that the teenagers beat the old man to death. My original position is still maintained.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2003 8:27 pm 
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Heh. So just because they didn't kill the old man, they should be put to community service until they turn 18. Yeah, that'll sure teach 'em. It'll teach 'em that they can get away with anything as long as they're young. It'll teach 'em to manilpulate the system worse than it already is. The youth of america needs a good spanking for doing stupid, illegal shit. Giving them cushier sentences because they haven't hit puberty's not gonna teach them a damn thing.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 12, 2003 4:41 am 
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Anybody here read R.A.Heinlain "Starship Troopers"? If no, then go to the nearest library and read it. Among all else, there is a conversation there exactly on that topic. The author thinks that whipes are the solution. I agree.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 12, 2003 9:22 am 
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Y'know, all discussion on this article is rather moot anyways. They pleaded to a deal and most of them got juvenile charges anyways. It would be more interesting to me to see the result of someone who was actually tried and convicted using the waiver system. I think the teens got the correct sentence, but I also feel that it is a juvenile sentence. Had they gotten life in prison, I would have been worried about what the legal system was trying to do.

I'm not saying they should get away with it. I'm saying that the punishment should be a learning experience. I think that the perfect punishment for any crime would be to have to live it on the other side, but since that's not possible, I think putting these kids in juvenile hall is the right idea.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 14, 2003 3:54 pm 
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Hmm....so maybe the goal of punishments for the young should be rehabilitation rather than punishment per se, as it is in the adult legal system.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 14, 2003 4:06 pm 
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Werewolfy wrote:
Anybody here read R.A.Heinlain "Starship Troopers"? If no, then go to the nearest library and read it. Among all else, there is a conversation there exactly on that topic. The author thinks that whipes are the solution. I agree.


I have the book right next to me... if there's enough interest, I will type out that section.


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 Post subject: Difficult subject
PostPosted: Mon Sep 15, 2003 4:51 am 
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Hmmmm....

I don't think anyone should get the Death penalty, full stop.

But on the rest of the punishments available, I agree with the earlier assertion that each case has to be taken on merit.
One of the biggest problems we have in the UK, in terms of youth crime, is that young men and women who spend any length of time in custody tend to reemerge more criminalised than they went in. Young offenders' institutions become more like young criminal training camps.
Put a child into an adult prison, and the degeneration of their behaviour can be even worse.
This is not exclusively true, of course; there are people who are rehabilitated by the system, and do not reoffend. But not enough of them by volume.

What is required, in many cases (and for these I do not include the more serious crimes) is a more social-work based approach. Youngsters have to be dealt with in smaller numbers, in residential settings which are closer to real life situations, to avoid institutionalising them.
Sadly, the money just isn't available for programmes like these. We spent 900 million pounds on the millenium dome, though. I love the UK.

One other issue on this subject is that of the more serious crimes.
Some years ago in this country, two primary-school aged children abducted a toddler, named James Bulger, from a local shopping centre. They took the child away to a secluded area, then began visiting physical attacks on him which included retreating to a distance and taking turns to throw bricks at him. James was killed.

These two young boys were immediately sent to juvenile homes after conviction. They recently turned 18, and were released by order of the courts, rather than be transferred to adult prison.

What does the forum think about this? Should they have been held accountable for the rest of their lives? Or does the fact that they committed this act as pre-teens absolve them from adult responsibility?

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 16, 2003 4:46 am 
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Hmmm.

No-one's touching this with a bargepole. I can't say I blame you, mind.

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 Post subject: Re: Difficult subject
PostPosted: Sun Sep 21, 2003 11:19 am 
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RedKnight wrote:
What is required, in many cases (and for these I do not include the more serious crimes) is a more social-work based approach. Youngsters have to be dealt with in smaller numbers, in residential settings which are closer to real life situations, to avoid institutionalising them.
Sadly, the money just isn't available for programmes like these....


I'm not sure what, precisely, you're advocating here, but it sounds like some kind of counselling service. Teaching delinquent kids, on a more or less individualized basis, that what they've done is wrong, and, more importantly, why. Stop me if I'm making any kind of mistaken assumption here.

Leaving aside the financial objections, though, what happens when such a program fails? It would probably be helpful in borderline cases, and some such will exist; however, the majority of cases are not borderline, and counselling is unlikely to be helpful.

See, once a child starts committing crimes (and by this I mean assault, property destruction, or similar; crimes with victims, not OMG HE SMOKED A JOINT WHERE DID WE GO WRONG), the damage has already been done. Juvenile offenders are the most completely screwed-up segment of their age group. You can attempt rehabilitation through any route you want, whether it be foster care or more traditional social work, but it's like putting a Band-Aid on a gunshot wound; a year or two of help, even good help, can't hope to undo the scars of many times that span of abuse and/or neglect. I don't believe people can be "born bad", barring serious genetic defects, but I do believe it's possible to permanently screw someone up by raising them poorly. Once that happens, about all you can do is try to convince them of their responsibility for their own actions through cause and effect, since the more soft-handed methods are likely to be seen as another chance to do more of the same, rather than an attempt at correction.

Is it a perfect solution? Hell no. But if you can think of anything better, let me know.

P-M


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 Post subject: Dont hate me
PostPosted: Tue Jan 20, 2004 3:50 pm 
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im my own personal opinion i think life is a suitable punishment.
if they have killed another human being they should suffer the consiquences.
this should be the death penalty.

Children are treated like small things that are going to break. They need a good smack. Im a child myself and i have watched the children whos parents have never punished them for any wrong doing. Grow up and become the dregs of society all they do is drink, take drugs and beat up smaller children as they're no consiquences they get a warning and are let off.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 20, 2004 4:28 pm 
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THREAD NECROMANCER.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 21, 2004 2:54 am 
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Ahh, Heinlein. The last refuge of dumbass pseudo-intellectuals who cant think of anything more imaginative or effective then public whippings to maintain order.

You raise a child by laying down basic moral rules for them to follow, and positively reinforcing good behaviour, not by teaching the child that violence is the way to get people to do what you want, and that violence is the solution to problems.

What drives me absolutely crazy is people seeing a juvenile delinquent, and saying, "That child needs a smack. If only someone would hurt him, then he'd instantly become a useful member of society. I R SO CLEVER! HEINLEIN ROCKS!" because the chances are, his parents DO hit him, just not in a sustained, set punishment for set wrongdoing way, more in a "You caused me trouble or did something I know about" way. Half the dumb assholes and bullies I know were/are hit by their parents. What you need is a parent who is physically mentally and emotionally equipped to devote all the time necessary to raising a mentally healthy child with a good moral grounding. This isnt ever going to happen if hitting children is viewed as a good deterrent or incentive for anything, and it isnt going to happen if fucking 14 year olds become parents and contraception between partners is frowned upon.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 21, 2004 12:54 pm 
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Location: I sailed away for a year and a day to the land where teh bong trees grow?!
When i said smack i did mean the smallest amount of force i didnt mean beat them to death!

i got smacked and it didnt harm me im a well rounded individual and know right from wrong my friend didnt get smacked and she is 17 had two abortions and is hooked on drugs? i know which one i prefer

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 21, 2004 6:55 pm 
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Cenwood wrote:
Ahh, Heinlein. The last refuge of dumbass pseudo-intellectuals who cant think of anything more imaginative or effective then public whippings to maintain order.

You raise a child by laying down basic moral rules for them to follow, and positively reinforcing good behaviour, not by teaching the child that violence is the way to get people to do what you want, and that violence is the solution to problems.

What drives me absolutely crazy is people seeing a juvenile delinquent, and saying, "That child needs a smack. If only someone would hurt him, then he'd instantly become a useful member of society. I R SO CLEVER! HEINLEIN ROCKS!" because the chances are, his parents DO hit him, just not in a sustained, set punishment for set wrongdoing way, more in a "You caused me trouble or did something I know about" way. Half the dumb assholes and bullies I know were/are hit by their parents. What you need is a parent who is physically mentally and emotionally equipped to devote all the time necessary to raising a mentally healthy child with a good moral grounding. This isnt ever going to happen if hitting children is viewed as a good deterrent or incentive for anything, and it isnt going to happen if fucking 14 year olds become parents and contraception between partners is frowned upon.


Image

Yes, thanks for that useless pile of crap, I suprised myself for stumbling all the way through it.

May I say two things to begin.

1) You sound like someone who was EITHER a) abused as a child or b) was not abused ENOUGH as a child

2) Your not a parent, nor likely to be one by choice.

I love the bleeding heart soft-cocks who advocate this sort of impractical crap, most of them either dont have kids or pose with their glassy-eyed, alien-like children (Its even more amusing with the sporadic news reports of said children being caught doing drugs, ect)

Now listen here, you wooly liberal, I've seen your methods, my cousin were raised on them. ha, my cousin, Adam, expelled from 3 schools, punched teachers, almost took out a little girls eye with a stick. He's 10.

My uncle and aunt never raised a hand to him. They were rewarded with zero respect for who they were, zero respect for what they told him. "I HATE YOU" screaming sessions followed by tonka-truck toys going through plaster walls and peoples legs, punching of his father *IN THE NUTSACK* was responded to by "Oh, please calm down, dear, listen to mummy" in a voice that could barely be decifered above the din.

On the other hand, my other cousins got a bit of a smack whenever they played up.

Ones in the air force, the other runs a successful fledgling computer buisness. My adopted cousin as well, she got inti University with a UIA score of about 95.

What do we want a world of?

Adams it seems. god help us all.

Fucktard. go back to dreaming, leave reality for those with a functional brain.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 21, 2004 8:13 pm 
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Gotta agree with Grey here. Violence is effective upon a young mind, because they can't understand reason. A child is NOT an adult and does NOT deserve to be treated like one. Do they deserve *protection*? Yes. But that doesn't mean that they need to be totally sealed off from any pain at all. It will help teach them that there's always someone who's more powerful than them.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 22, 2004 3:05 am 
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Buncha dumbasses. What you are basically saying amounts to "I know one kid who got smacked, and one kid who didn’t, and the former kid is better! Therefore, this is conclusively proof that hitting children always makes them good! IR A GUNIUS!"

It does not always work like that. There are a squillion people in the world who weren’t hit as children and amount to fantastic individuals. Your examples include one child who was occasionally hit and is now a functioning member of society, and one child who is NEVER made to do ANYTHING by his parents. In the last case, the fact that he is not hit is totally irrelevant; his parents are a bunch of pussies. I’m willing to bet hitting him would only make the brat scream more. If my kid ever behaved like that, he would be in the shit, and he'd know it. But hopefully by then Id have built a relationship based on love and trust rather then "IM BIGGER THEN YOU SO WHAT I SAY IS RIGHT."

You also make smacking out to be such a well thought out, logical thing, whereas it clearly isn’t. What is actually the case is that the kid pisses the parent off, or the parent encounters a situation in which they aren’t sure what response is expected of them, or even if the parent is just pissed off from a bad day at work and the kid makes too much noise, and the kids gets hit. Pain? Certainly. Humiliation? Definitely, it’s never nice to get completely pwned by someone larger then you, usually in front of people. NO kid then thinks "Well, I was kinda being a jerk and I deserved that", the kid thinks "FUCKING ASSHOLE, I HATE HIM". The actual moral lesson for that moment gets totally eclipsed in righteous indignation and outrage. That’s the truth, whether or not all the poor bastards who have not only conditioned to have quick, short-fuse tempers, but ALSO conditioned to the fact that once you have kids its perfectly acceptable use them to vent your frustrations can accept it.

Miho, I don’t understand how your friends various bad traits relate to her not being hit as a child. Two abortions? So, what, her father should have whacked her when he first heard she didn’t use a condom or a pill or whatever else correctly? Or maybe sex Ed should be conducted with canes or something? Drugs? So the allure of illicit substances is decreased, and your knowledge of the ill effects of said substances is magically increased by getting hit? I agree with you that somewhere along the line her parents have severely fucked up, probably in failing to educate her about sex and drugs, but I don’t think it’s hitting.

The reason the "Bleeding heart liberals" are often singled out for mockery by you "Completely retarded emotionally fucked psychos" is because the basic philosophy behind not smacking is not ONLY held by people who are really interested in raising their children, but also by the type of parents best depicted here: http://www.somethingpositive.net/sp01072002.shtml

Please believe, not all people who don’t believe violence is some kind of 100% cure-all disciplinary action are like that, just as we bleeding hearts don’t believe all you fuckwits are all completely deprived maniacs who use heavy metal implements, cigarettes, and lit stoves to "make their children learn a lesson".

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 22, 2004 7:41 am 
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Cenwood wrote:
Buncha dumbasses. What you are basically saying amounts to "I know one kid who got smacked, and one kid who didn’t, and the form.... FLUSH....


Oh dear, Cenwood, failure AGAIN, how DO you do it?

Amusing how that Somethingpositive link actually supports what I say. but as usual you wooly morons can twist anything to suport you with cottonany logic. Indeed how can someone of your views even stand Somethingpositive? Most pressing above all this is the question of "Can you turn on your computer unaided?"

Unlikely but lets give you the benifit of the doubt.

Anyways... how do you know the earth is round, huh?

HUH?

Yeah, thats right. just from what you've been told.. what if its all a big lie. You dont have any real proof, what if all those reasonings, all those photos, ALL THAT HARD EVIDENCE is fake?

You know what I think?

TEH EARTH IS FLAT!!!!111!!

I totally think it is despite the fact it totaly runs in fucking opposite to all available evidence, I think it is totally a huge government conspiricy and I sure do love typing 'totally', OMG FOOFLES.

Hmm, pretty fucktarded, so is crossing your fingers and hoping you children grow up to not be a social reject/Cenwood by 'positive re-inforcement' bullcrap. Positive re-inforcement didnt stop my cat crapping inside, holding his nose up to the shit and smacking him on the nose did.

Now dont tell me that wont work on humans, your typical of most mindless media tripe zombies I encounter and let me tell you my cat could kick your ass in a test of mental prowess. And he can lick his own balls, beat that wonderboy.

Anyway, that pretty much pwnzed all your bullshit, but I think, in fairness I should actually include in my post more of your logic.

Cenwood wrote:
Creation of 4 simultaneous
24 hour days, within a single rotation of Earth, empowers
me above all 1-day gods and
educated stupid scientists. I
will wager $10,000.00 on it.
****************************************************
My wisdom so antiquates known knowledge, that
a psychiatrist examining my behavior, eccentric
by his academic single corner knowledge, knows
no course other than to judge me schizoprenic. In
today's society of greed, men of word illusion are
elected to lead and wise men are condemned. You
must establish a Chair of Wisdom to empower
Wise Men over the stupid intelligentsia, or perish.




Sounds awesome. Sign me up.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 22, 2004 8:41 am 
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Forevergrey wrote:
Oh dear, Cenwood, failure AGAIN, how DO you do it?


Failure to do....what? To try to get you to acknowledge that your beliefs have no basis in reality, and are born of a combination of wilful ignorance, stupidity, and childhood trauma, and that their is a miriad of other people with beliefs more intelligent and more thought out then yours? To convince you that you are a worthless waste of oxygen and should cease breathing immediately? Both are worthy objectives, but the only way someone is going to change your mind is a with a lobotomy. Your so firmly set in your stupid beliefs that you arnt ever going to change your mind, and I wont try. Besides, its much more fun to make fun of you for your emotional mental and physical defiencies then it EVER will to try to fix them.

Forevergrey wrote:
Amusing how that Somethingpositive link actually supports what I say. but as usual you wooly morons can twist anything to suport you with cottonany logic. Indeed how can someone of your views even stand Somethingpositive?


I DID make a mistake here. I made the mistake that you might actually have a valid opinion and be capable of rational thought. I considered, "How could this human being think what he does" and came up with the idea you had only seen the extremists of "the other side", and in your social isolation had never come across normal people, so you have somehow cultivated the belief that ALL kids who arnt hit are like the Marvin kid in the comic. I posted in an effort to acknowledge this, and assure you that it WASNT so, any more then the fact that ALL people like you discipline their kids using cigarrette butts. However, I didnt account for the fact that you are an illiterate fuckwit who didnt even read the whole post, so Ive given up trying to converse with you as a rational human being, and am instead going to patronise you.

Quote:
Most pressing above all this is the question of "Can you turn on your computer unaided?"

Unlikely but lets give you the benifit of the doubt.


Almost too retarded to respond to, but yes, yes I can. Do they not teach that to you at "Fuckwit High"?

Quote:
Anyways... how do you know the earth is round, huh?


Because all the scientfic evidence the human race has reached thus far has concluded it logically must be. Plus the fact we have seen it from space and its round. Continue.

Quote:
HUH?

Yeah, thats right. just from what you've been told.. what if its all a big lie. You dont have any real proof, what if all those reasonings, all those photos, ALL THAT HARD EVIDENCE is fake?

You know what I think?

TEH EARTH IS FLAT!!!!111!!

I totally think it is despite the fact it totaly runs in fucking opposite to all available evidence, I think it is totally a huge government conspiricy and I sure do love typing 'totally', OMG FOOFLES.


Im lost here. Was this an attempt to insult me, or just a random tangeant? Should I ignore this, or respond to it?

Quote:
Hmm, pretty fucktarded, so is crossing your fingers and hoping you children grow up to not be a social reject/Cenwood by 'positive re-inforcement' bullcrap. Positive re-inforcement didnt stop my cat crapping inside, holding his nose up to the shit and smacking him on the nose did.


Not hitting your kids is far more then "crossing your fingers and hoping they grow up right". Its funny that you think that Iam a prime example of what comes off not hitting your kids (other then the fact that my dad does hit me, and it didnt actually assist me in growing up whatsoever): I think your a prime reason for NOT hitting kids. From the sound of things, you were beaten, and are now an unbalanced, mentally scarred person who has to justify his previous abuse because he is too narrow minded to raise his own kids differently, or indeed relate to ANYONE that isnt a psycho.

Quote:
Now dont tell me that wont work on humans, your typical of most mindless media tripe zombies I encounter and let me tell you my cat could kick your ass in a test of mental prowess. And he can lick his own balls, beat that wonderboy.


The cat lacks the cognitive capacity for understanding anything else. And it ISNT necessary to hit them, Ive trained puppies by stopping them whenever I see them try it, and all you have to do is shout and not hit. Eventually they get housetrained simply to avoid pissing you off. But I dont think either way is better: as long as the animal doesnt shit in the house, its all good. Humans are more complex.

And maybe your cat's ability to keep itself clean makes it mentally superior to you, but the rest of us are fiarly mentally stable. Although, I cant lick my own balls. That part of the contest go's to your cat, Im afraid.

Quote:
Anyway, that pretty much pwnzed all your bullshit


It did? It made my LMAO at how retarded you are, but not much else. You didnt actually prove anything I said wrong, you just spouted a load of pre-prebuscent 8 year old insults.

Quote:
but I think, in fairness I should actually include in my post more of your logic.

Cenwood wrote:
Creation of 4 simultaneous
24 hour days, within a single rotation of Earth, empowers
me above all 1-day gods and
educated stupid scientists. I
will wager $10,000.00 on it.


Ahh...uhh, You'll have to excuse me, Im not as good as decoding the puzzle of your fucked up brain as your shrink is. I assume you are referring to the hypercube theory, yes? And are comparing it to my sociological theory? Despite the fact you havnt yet proved me wrong in any way, shape or form?

Quote:
My wisdom so antiquates known knowledge, that
a psychiatrist examining my behavior, eccentric
by his academic single corner knowledge, knows
no course other than to judge me schizoprenic. In
today's society of greed, men of word illusion are
elected to lead and wise men are condemned. You
must establish a Chair of Wisdom to empower
Wise Men over the stupid intelligentsia, or perish.
Sounds awesome. Sign me up.


Im not going to even try to understand what the hell you are trying to convey here. Ill take a gamble that its retarded and not bother.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 22, 2004 9:50 am 
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Whoa, you sure can generate a vast amount of shit in a short space of time. I'm going to see if the vast body of non-morons in this fine forum drag you into the goth-pit you came from or leave me to do it all by myself.

Drown in a ditch, sweetie.


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