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 Post subject: Does the stigma against paedophiles help or hurt the situation?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 25, 2003 11:12 am 
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Ok, first off. I AM NOT CONDONING IN ANYWAY SHAPE OR FORM, CHILD RAPE!!!! This is not what the debate is about, you even HINT otherwise I will... do something horrible to you. Can't say what just yet. I cannot express how strongly I feel on this. However this though has been plaguing me for a while.

Paedophiles exist. We have seen this time and time again. Kissing priests, Child rapists, molesters, ect. ect. But once I ran across another type of paedophile. The early paedophile. The pure paedophile. One who has not committed any of the crimes that we all so hate. This got me thinking into classifications. A paedophile is someone who is sexually attracted to children. They might not have that much control over it. They might hate themselves for it. And they know that if it becomes public knowledge, there life as they know it would be over. So they bottle it inside. But the desire might continue to be there. That desire might eventually lead them to go into the papers and later, jail. Now, why can't they get help in the earlier stages. Well, I'll tell you. I am currently going to see a psychologist. I have ADD, and he specialises in management of it. He send me a letter, orienting me with what was to happen. I came across the section on confidentiality, and found that he MUST break confidence if he feels that I am a danger to others, or a sexual danger to children along with a few other horrendous things I can't remember. So, a paedophile going for psychological help is basically going to the police and confessing to child rape. No matter if you have done nothing, you are still screwed. Ok, even further into this. Phycologists are not trained to deal with paedophiles properly. The only one who are trained are the phycologists who work in prisons. By that point you are not just dealing with a paedophile, but a rapist, or a molester, or whatever the crime committed was. A pure or early paedophile would be treated like a criminal, an inhuman beast. This does not offer the best atmosphere for this person to live a happy life. He is either forced to hand himself to the authorities and be branded pervert for the rest of his life, or he is stuck, with these desires, either living a lie, or living a crime. Is this the best system we can come up with? Wouldn't it be better to allow these people to quietly get the help they need and allow them to quietly go back to there life? Our automatic hatred towards these people are causing a lot of people to be unhappy. Not only that, but we might be driving them further towards what we hate so much. I think that that is just plain dumb.

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Last edited by Chaos on Thu Oct 02, 2003 8:46 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Does the sigma against paedophiles help or hurt the situation?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 25, 2003 11:26 am 
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Chaos_Descending wrote:
MUST break confidence if he feels that I am a danger to others, or a sexual danger to children along with a few other horrendous things I can't remember.


Thats if he feels you are a threat, not if you confess to having desires of such. It would be a poor head-shrink indeed who would push the big red 'crazy' button and have you dragged away after first admitting to having thoughts about it.

To draw a rough example its the difference between saying 'I sometimes daydream about hurting children, and it scares me" and rocking backwards and forwards in your chairm babbling "I wanna know what a kiddie feels like, you know? Hehe... that Jefferson kid next door? hehe.. what a sweety. You know, his mommy lats him play in the backyard alone..."

Of course in the latter the doctor should damn well be arranging a straight jacket and two burly men to put him in it, but if he's going to press the aforementioned 'big red button' over the former just like that, then he's an utter quack.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 25, 2003 11:53 am 
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That's not always true, FG. Prejudices exist in all of us, and some would gladly ruin the life of someone just because they have the same condition as some other people.

Pedophilia isn't wrong if you think about it, only if you do it. That's really all there is to it. You can't penalize people for what they think about.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 25, 2003 12:53 pm 
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Pedophilia is wrong. Period. I can't believe anyone would fucking say that wanting to molest and rape a child is "Perfectly OK!" if you only think about it. It's fucking not. I had respect for you before, Ero, but now that's gone.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 25, 2003 12:56 pm 
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gogo needless personal attacks!


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Sep 25, 2003 1:11 pm 
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Forevergrey wrote:
Chaos_Descending wrote:
MUST break confidence if he feels that I am a danger to others, or a sexual danger to children along with a few other horrendous things I can't remember.


That’s if he feels you are a threat, not if you confess to having desires of such. It would be a poor head-shrink indeed who would push the big red 'crazy' button and have you dragged away after first admitting to having thoughts about it.


Ok, the actual line is...
Quote:
A physician is required by law to report:

1. Anyone considered to be unsafe to drive a car or fly an airplane.
2. Anyone considered to be a danger to someone else.
3. Anyone suspected of physical, sexual, emotional, or mental abuse of children.
4. A lawyer acting against you in a suit, may require your doctor to bring your record to court, and answer questions which the judge considers relevant.

So you do have a point there. But Ero is also right. When people get this anal about the subject, would you feel safe trusting yourself to ANYONE?
When people are this reactionary about the subject, they quite possibly will only hear the words "I want to fuck children."
I'm not talking about people who are satisfied daydreaming. Good for them, they are already coping. I'm talking about people who will say "I am walking down the street and I see kids playing in a pool, and I get turned on."
There used to be an article on [/url]www.allaboutsex.org[url] but I can no longer fid it. It was about a pure paedophile, who couldn't get help. He was afraid to.

Let's face it, there are people out there to get paedophiles.
Some of them don't deserve it.

Ryven wrote:
Pedophilia is wrong. Period. I can't believe anyone would fucking say that wanting to molest and rape a child is "Perfectly OK!" if you only think about it. It's fucking not. I had respect for you before, Ero, but now that's gone.


Ok I did a warning at the start of this. Your on the edge here. This does prove my point about us being so goddam reactionary about it. I agree. Thoughts and desires sometimes can't be helped. Remember, pedophilia is sexual attraction to someone significantly younger then you. It's nothing till you act out your desires.

Again, my point is, with so many people out to shoot them down for it, how can paedophiles feel safe in trying to get help so they can lead a healthy life?[/quote]

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Sep 25, 2003 2:45 pm 
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*grimaces* I likely am not one to really speak on this specific subject, because my opinion of the whole "psychiatric help" issue is that it's about two steps up from quackery.

My opinion on these "early" pedophiles: they should control it. Bottle it up. People can bottle other urges; alcoholics can stop drinking, smokers can give up cigarettes, even hard-drug users can go clean. If they can control it, let them live out their lives in peace.

If they can't control it, and they actually do harm a child, they should be executed. Child rapists deserve no mercy.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 25, 2003 4:36 pm 
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*throws his hat in*
Some clarification, we now have two columns.
In column 1, we have the sliding pedophile. Thoughts occur to him; disturbing thoughts, thoughts he can't block out, thoughts society forbids them to speak about. Given time and these thoughts, these unblockable thoughts, he's sure to slide into Column 2. He can't seek help without being considered as bad a criminal. [notes: 1, this is probably the original intent of this thread. 2, the psych rules are specificly past tense - if you've already done it, you're reported.]
In column 2, we have the active pedophile. Thoughts occur and he does it; he doesn't just wonder what it feels like, he's done it twice. If you want to debate whether or not these people should be executed, I'd like to request it gets its own thread; while the punishment will serve a deterrent to Column 1, it's not really the issue at hand.

My two cents - Those in column 1 are between a rock and a hard place. It isn't even the specifics of their increasing urges; no ammount of deterrent in the form of future punishment will scare them into sanity, it isn't something they can self-medicate, and it's terrifying to admit. Here's the crux: In a perfect world, a priest starts feeling urges, nagging questions when he looks at his altar boys, wondering dark wonderings he should never entertain. He drives himself to the psychiatrist, lays out on the couch, and tearfully, with a heavy heart entrusts these dark secrets. The psychiatrist quietly arranges a stay in a mental institution for him (don't get ahead of me, I'm going somewhere with this), the priest dons his straightjacket, and for a few months they work on a regimen of therapy, fingerpainting and medication, getting the thoughts out of his system, teaching him to cope with questions which are passing and in a way silly, but only grow when locked away. Two or three months later he's released, his mind at ease (Hey, a good psych battery can do that now if it's caught early enough), and in a perfect world he's welcomed back to his parish as a hero.

That's the problem. What do we do with people we learn had bad thoughts once? We fear them, we keep them at arm's length, we fear they could still turn into Mister Hyde. We don't say Hey, this man was brave! He confronted his fears and cured himself of a condition that could have threatened all of us! He jumped on a metaphorical grenade for the people he cares about! We SHOULD say that, but we don't.

The people in Column 1 are facing this approximate problem. They're on track to slide into Column 2, because what SHOULD happen is they walk into a psych office and don't walk out - it's the safest way. But they don't want to turn themselves in, because then they're a bad person somehow; that's what's screwing the whole process up.

*takes back his hat* I don't expect to return. Thank you for your time.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 25, 2003 4:52 pm 
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But how can it be known that they are, in fact, cured? Who could actually say to, for example, a self-confessed pedophile teacher "Well, I know that you've had thoughts about molesting my kids, but I'll let you teach them anyway because you were in therapy for a few months?"

Hell no. Psychiatry is a pseudoscience at best, definitely not something I'm going to trust in a decision of that magnitude.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 25, 2003 4:54 pm 
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*reads above post*
Nice...
That's it exactly.
Your good.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 25, 2003 4:58 pm 
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Ok then Ky and Ryven. Lets gather up all people with bad thoughts about children and put them away. Wait a minute, how about we just gather up all people with bad thoughts period.

Oh, Jimmy. You thought about taking that candy bar, and even though you didn't, you will still have to be punished.

People will think some sick things no matter what you do. Whether they act on their impulses is what makes them wrong. I don't care if a teacher has impure thoughts from time to time, as they are human. I know that I have had some very disturbing thoughts, but that doesn't mean that I had or would ever have any intention of acting upon them. You start policing thoughts, and the world is fucked, as people will always think sick things. Doesn't matter who, what, when, where, or how. Now don't anyone here ever tell me they haven't had an impure thought in their life, because I know they are lying.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 25, 2003 5:30 pm 
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krylex wrote:
Ok then Ky and Ryven. Lets gather up all people with bad thoughts about children and put them away.


No, let's punish those who actually commit what they're thinking about, and help those who have thoughts about hurting children in any way we can, rather than trying to reinforce the fact that the thoughts they have are good thoughts, simply because they're human. That's no excuse. Thoughts about child rape/killing aren't kosher or healthy.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 25, 2003 5:30 pm 
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*sighs and comes back in, throwing his hat down disgustedly*

This is exactly what I'm talking about. "Hi, we're the thought police here to punish anyone with bad thoughts!" Thank you ever so much for missing the fucking point in its entirety!

1) It shouldn't be a punishment.
2) It shouldn't be considered a punishment.
3) Those subject to it should not be considered bad people for being so "punished"

Three simple ideas, all intertwined. If a teacher who had pedophilic urges sought treatment, and another may have but keeps them to himself, which is safer alone in a room with Little Johnny? The one who "pseudoscience" has taught to count to three, or the one who still wonders what it'd feel like? Your individual thoughts on the entirety of psychology aside, does it not show a strength of character to seek help? Or are you still weakly jerking off to A Brilliant Mind's core tenet that he's a hero for walking around untreated and a potential threat to all around him for years and years?
You want to know the truth?
If anyone gave two tugs of a dead dog's cock about the truth, none of this would be happening.
Feel free to drift in your perfect fucking utopia where insane people put their issues in a magical bottle of holding that never breaks. Because that worked so well for Doctor Jekyll and Jack the Ripper, after all. The rest of us are trying to work things out in a world where people who don't do anything about their problems eventually snap.

The Thought Police don't exist, but you can wear your tinfoil helmet if it makes you comfortable. Nowhere have I said People who think bad things should be punished. You may have noticed the word hero used in respect to the people who seek help. Odd how it doesn't look like criminal, huh?
If Jimmy has thoughts about stealing candybars that he can't control, he should seek help. He should learn to deal with these thoughts, because he damn well isn't learning it in Kindergarten. He SHOULD, we should all learn coping skills instead of the date of the magna carta, but that's a rant for a different thread. Jimmy seeking help, further, should not be a punishment. It's doing the right thing! People shouldn't be punished for being responsible!

*takes back up his hat* Looks like you're stuck with me now. '''

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 25, 2003 5:37 pm 
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Ky's point was that "curing" these people is a tenuous prospect at best, as psychology is UNDER THE VERY BEST CIRCUMSTANCES and iffy subject. Who do I trust around a line of crack cocaine, the addict or the recovering addict? The recover addict, but it doesn't mean I'd put it in front of him =/

The idea that there is a "cure" for pedophilia also leads to thoughts about their being "cures" for other sexual orientations or preferences- why not say there's a "cure" for BDSM, sadomasochism, homosexuality or even hetereosexuality?

Ky's point was, if you would have bothered to pay attention instead of spouting off idiotic rhetoric, NOT that it was a crime to have these thoughts, but that he doesn't trust any of these self-admitted people with "problems" around kids.

You are being inflammatory, stupid, and are completely ignoring the ENTIRE FUCKING POINT of Ky's post. Please do not make up arguements and attempt to say they are what he said =/

Thats just bm.

And no, the people who seek help are not heroes. They are people doing what they are SUPPOSED to do. It is their responsibility, not above and beyond what is expected of them. And doing what you should do does not make you a hero, sorry. Glorifying doing exactly what society expects of you is like saying joe blow who goes to work is a hero, and it cheapens the word 'hero' to mean absolutely nothing important --;;

Responsible? I suppose. Heroic? No.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 25, 2003 5:44 pm 
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In a way, is it not heroic to sacrifice for another? Especially when you do not need to, yet you feel it would ensure safety?


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 25, 2003 5:52 pm 
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Tyhm wrote:
1) It shouldn't be a punishment.
2) It shouldn't be considered a punishment.
3) Those subject to it should not be considered bad people for being so "punished"


Never said it was a punishment. I said that there was no guarantee of it being useful.

But I disagree with you on #3. If someone admits that they wanted to molest my children (this is hypothetical at the moment, as I don't have children, but I plan on having children at some point in my life), I don't care if they've gone through rehab or a twelve-step program or whatever the psychiatrist mandated. I wouldn't want them around my kids, now or in the future. This may indeed qualify as "punishment" in your mind, but it is simple and realistic protectiveness in mine - and I doubt any good parent would or should say otherwise.

Quote:
Three simple ideas, all intertwined. If a teacher who had pedophilic urges sought treatment, and another may have but keeps them to himself, which is safer alone in a room with Little Johnny? The one who "pseudoscience" has taught to count to three, or the one who still wonders what it'd feel like?


Neither is safe to allow in that room. As many threats should be eliminated as possible; that doesn't mean all threats can be (i.e. the unknown pedophile) but a known threat such as a self-declared pedophile should be.

Quote:
Your individual thoughts on the entirety of psychology aside, does it not show a strength of character to seek help? Or are you still weakly jerking off to A Brilliant Mind's core tenet that he's a hero for walking around untreated and a potential threat to all around him for years and years?


Perhaps, but I wouldn't say it shows more strength of character than would be shown by living a normal life despite what that person's sick instincts call for. But, again, I don't care that it shows strength of character; if they have pedophilic impulses, I don't want them around my child(ren). End of discussion.

As for "A Brilliant Mind," I don't know what you're referring to, but that's certainly a charming way of describing my thought processes...

Quote:
If Jimmy has thoughts about stealing candybars that he can't control, he should seek help. He should learn to deal with these thoughts, because he damn well isn't learning it in Kindergarten. He SHOULD, we should all learn coping skills instead of the date of the magna carta, but that's a rant for a different thread. Jimmy seeking help, further, should not be a punishment. It's doing the right thing! People shouldn't be punished for being responsible!


If Little Jimmy confessed that he wanted to steal candy bars, I'd keep a close eye on him while he's in the store, regardless of whether or not he's been in therapy for it.

Also, it's an utter straw-man to compare stealing candybars with molesting children. There are light-years of difference in the magnitude of those actions, and in the proper responses to those actions.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 25, 2003 6:07 pm 
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See, there are certain things that you think about whether you want to or not. Sex? Yeah. Biologically attuned to think about sex. Violence? Mmhmm. Similar, self-preservation instincts and all that.

But molesting children? I doubt it. If someone told me they had thoughts about molesting children, I would go in my closet, grab my sword, and do my part for the gene pool.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 25, 2003 6:13 pm 
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Kylaer wrote:
Tyhm wrote:
1) It shouldn't be a punishment.
2) It shouldn't be considered a punishment.
3) Those subject to it should not be considered bad people for being so "punished"


Never said it was a punishment. I said that there was no guarantee of it being useful.

But I disagree with you on #3. If someone admits that they wanted to molest my children (this is hypothetical at the moment, as I don't have children, but I plan on having children at some point in my life), I don't care if they've gone through rehab or a twelve-step program or whatever the psychiatrist mandated. I wouldn't want them around my kids, now or in the future. This may indeed qualify as "punishment" in your mind, but it is simple and realistic protectiveness in mine - and I doubt any good parent would or should say otherwise.


And that is the problem we have. Think of this from the pedophile's view.
I am tempted, but I know these temptations are wrong. THis it a great test to my self control. I am not sure if I will be able to make it. But if knowledge of my desires get out, I will be branded pervert for life. If I get help, I am not guarenteed confidentiality. I can't take that risk. My life can be ruined if I get help. I am in this alone.

We need to remove that last line there. We need to make it so these people do not feel afraid to get help, and that help is available.

[quote-" Kylaer"]Perhaps, but I wouldn't say it shows more strength of character than would be shown by living a normal life despite what that person's sick instincts call for.[/quote]

I view it with less discust and more with pity.

Kylaer wrote:
If they have pedophilic impulses, I don't want them around my child(ren). End of discussion.

That is what the Canadian Criminal Code uses to stop CONVICTED CRIMINALS from doing repeat offences. They are forced to not have any contact with children under the age of 14, not go near places where they can be tempted, etc, etc. So basically you are saying "Punish them for thought"

Kylaer wrote:
As for "A Brilliant Mind," I don't know what you're referring to, but that's certainly a charming way of describing my thought processes...


It only won an Oscer...
See it, it's a good film.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 25, 2003 6:17 pm 
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The Baron wrote:
See, there are certain things that you think about whether you want to or not. Sex? Yeah. Biologically attuned to think about sex. Violence? Mmhmm. Similar, self-preservation instincts and all that.

But molesting children? I doubt it. If someone told me they had thoughts about molesting children, I would go in my closet, grab my sword, and do my part for the gene pool.



See what I fucking mean!!!! With this waiting for them outside of the door, WHY THE HELL DO YOU THINK THERE HIDING!!!! This is the reason they don't get help. This is why I started this debat, That attitud is only makeing the problem WORSE!!!


Sorry for the double post.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 25, 2003 6:25 pm 
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So, under your logic, not hiring someone who talks about how much he wants to steal fast cars, and how he wants to "get help" for that at a car dealership is "punishing the thought."

Its called prudence. I'm sorry CD, but its just stupid to think like that. YOU LOSE! EAT IT! EAT IT!

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