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PostPosted: Wed Oct 01, 2003 7:17 pm 
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Man oh man did you guys pick a bad fucking day.

Work was hell and I want to get out some anger!

Yes, there are some cases where evil is relative.

For example: Most of the time if you kill someone it is an evil act.

If you kill someone for crimes they have commited it is not evil, its JUSTICE!

If you rape a 12 year old its STILL AN EVIL ACT!

If you slaughter a group of people because of their religion ITS STILL AN EVIL ACT!

Most people that are evil don't know it or don't consider themselves evil.

Yes, I know about the perverted FUCKING romans and even before that when they'd whore out little children to lords to the equivalent of "Pay their way through college" or whatever. Its one of the sickest things to happen in history. You want a good perspective of it watch the anime Berserk. Something like that happens and you just wanna kill the lord, seriously.

2000 people eh? All of 'em pedophiles eh? BURN THE WHOLE FUCKING LOT!!!!! I'm going monstering!

No, you can't cleanse it from the gene pool, I know that, I know that its not genetic, I was in berserker mode. You will still have to smite the perverts on a regular basis. And that I have no problem with. Hell, give me the gun! I'll shoot every one of 'em in the fucking head. Free of charge!!!!!

Is my solution inhumane?

It stops repeat offenders. It opens new opertunities for people that aren't FUCKED IN THE HEAD. Its fast and efficient.

It might be inhumane. But sometimes the answers to some things are.

You can't please everyone. I know. Seriously, some people just need to die.

Whether your retarded or not you still commited an unspeakable act and need to die.

Evil is not always in intent.

With some things whether you have good intentions or not an evil act is an evil act.

Some people would say that killing evil people for the good of the planet is one of those "evil acts"

I personally disagree, but then again I'm willing to use evil acts to stop evil acts.

Would that make ME evil? Possibly. But I don't give a fuck. I may go to hell but at least you're gonna get there first!

I'm willing to spend my life in eternal torment in order to save good people from evil acts and in order to strike the kind of fear in to evil people that they really deserve.

Now, I'm feeling a little more level headed.

Yes, I do feel that whether you think something is "okay" or not whether its due to morality problems or mental problems its still wrong in most cases.

The only problem is getting rainbow sniffing crotch goblins to see that.

My intent is to take a shit now,
The Sinister Chris

PS: When I take a shit, its an EVIL act commited upon the next person that steps in to the bathroom. Or whatever room I decide to leave it. :D


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 01, 2003 8:50 pm 
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People make a mistake in thinking that reaction to crimes has to be punishment in the revenge sense, it really doesn't matter if someone is retarded or not, some people need to GO! We don't put down a mad dog because it's immoral or deserves it, it's sick, it has a disease, and we get the fuck rid of it.

People really can be like that too, you raped and killed 6 9-14 y/o girls, but you aren't responsible because you are insane? Fine, I agree with you, I'm sorry, *BLAM* may God or whoever's attention you have have mercy on your soul. Crazy is not an excuse, it's all the more reason to get rid of someone.

If someone kills a guy becuase the guy slept with his wife, or sued him and ruined his business, or whatever, at least he was RATIONAL! Put him in jail awhile, let him out, and likely he won't find reason enough to kill again in his lifetime.

A man who kills because the dog next door told him to can NOT be rehabilitated.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2003 12:08 am 
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Clay_Allison wrote:
People make a mistake in thinking that reaction to crimes has to be punishment in the revenge sense, it really doesn't matter if someone is retarded or not, some people need to GO! We don't put down a mad dog because it's immoral or deserves it, it's sick, it has a disease, and we get the fuck rid of it.

People really can be like that too, you raped and killed 6 9-14 y/o girls, but you aren't responsible because you are insane? Fine, I agree with you, I'm sorry, *BLAM* may God or whoever's attention you have have mercy on your soul. Crazy is not an excuse, it's all the more reason to get rid of someone.

If someone kills a guy becuase the guy slept with his wife, or sued him and ruined his business, or whatever, at least he was RATIONAL! Put him in jail awhile, let him out, and likely he won't find reason enough to kill again in his lifetime.

A man who kills because the dog next door told him to can NOT be rehabilitated.


Amen.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2003 12:14 am 
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Thank you Clay. You're wise beyond your years.

(Edit: I think thats how the saying goes?)

(Double Edit: I got it!)


Last edited by The Sinister Chris on Thu Oct 02, 2003 1:59 am, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2003 1:09 am 
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"Wise beyond your years" is the usual phrasing.
Yeah, that's about my reaction too; I just believe in restraining it if we're risking driving the unidentified potentials away from announcing themselves. If they can't be deterred or encouraged, shoot 'em. Not gonna change anything, makes me feel better to have fewer monsters. If they can be deterred or encouraged, get 'em all identified in whatever way's safe. Especially if properly identified potentials are controllable. To my mind, 2000 identified and controlled potentials beats 1999 dead potentials and 1 live pedophile who's free to strike.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2003 8:46 am 
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I disagree. That basically is saying that therapy has no use at all. I feel that it DOES have use, it IS effective in some cases and if people are crazy, know it and WANT to change, they CAN, with help.

MIB, you say that there is no stigma. Then the next three posts were pretty much people saying "THEY MUST DIE!!!"... nothing more on that.

Again I must state that I tend to categorise. A person who is attracted to children sexually is a paedophile. A person who rapes a child is a paedophile and a rapist. A priest who does the alter boy is a paedophile, a rapist and a homosexual. A person who rapes and kills a child is a paedophile, a rapist, and a murderer. Now, I do not feel that all paedophiles must die. I disagree, I think that point of view is evil and chances are that the people who believe in them are also evil. Paedophile have done nothing. Rapist... ok, I can see where your coming, but remember, if I had sex with a drunk chick, while I was sober, I would be a rapist. (I wouldn't do that, I'm not the type of guy to sleep around) It is for that reason I don't think all rapists should die. I could go on for a while. Basically though, I feel punishment should be proportional to the crime.

Ok, you raped little Susie, and ended up traumatizing her.

BLAM!!!

Done.

Ok, You had thoughts about little Lillia. You have done nothing. But we will force you to de Dr. Johnson once a week. We will keep a discreet eye on you and we will strongly recommend that you tell the parent of you therapy if you are going to be near there children.

That makes sense to me. It doesn't seem like we are being led by our urge for violence.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2003 9:04 am 
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There *is* a stigma, people don't like convicted child molestors but they'll leave them alone for the most part (Can you honestly claim TSC, or Mr. Dead are 'average' in any way, shape or form?) and people who merely have *thoughts* are not cared about either way until they do something or bandy their thoughts about in public.

And I think you should be barred from said jobs, either after molesting or after having thoughts. For children safety, you cannot have a buerocrat watching said person 24/7, Tyhm thinks you can, or that a potential pedophile will control themselves when not watched, I feel thats a pretty dumb idea etc.

-MiB

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2003 9:53 am 
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Fair statement

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2003 2:52 pm 
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Dammit CD, there's no such thing as innocent or accidental rape! "I was drunk" is not a Get Out Of Jail Free card, because you're the one who let yourself get drunk in the first place! The fact that you don't remember it afterwards doesn't differentiate it from I was hungry or I had too much sugar (the infamous Twinky Defense) - You raped someone, you = evil. You did a hit and run, you = evil. This is why I don't drink alone, it's irresponsible and opens you up for a great many nightmarish scenarios on waking up the next day.

Regardless of your thoughts on treatability, it is a given of this discussion that treatment is impossible on a fetish such as pedophilia. Further, it leads inevitably to rape because it can't be treated and the targets can't legally consent - legal consent requires they be old enough to really know what they're getting themselves into.

Given a world where pedophilia can't be treated but can be contained, and where pedophilia leads inevitably to rape, and where pedophiles are free to come forward or not in a nondeterministic fashion, all pedophiles should be contained if they come forward and shot if they don't to encourage all pedophiles to come forward and be contained.

Given a similar world where pedophilia can't be contained, all pedophiles should be shot when they come forward. I like TSC's idea about relocating them first though, so they don't realize it and keep coming forward. Something worse than shooting should await those who don't come forward.

Given a similar world but with a deterministic spin - All pedophiles are too crazy to be scared off by the threat of death - all pedophiles should be shot when they come forward with no pretense whatsoever, and shot if they don't. It's not like it's gonna scare any of them out of coming forward, they're apparently immune to fear.

I would like to believe in the first scenario. Everyone else seems to believe in the second scenario, which is a tricky one. Some people seem to hint at the third, which is a little silly, but I'll account for it. No sense arguing the details of which world we live in; I can't prove any of it solidly, and it's easier to just grant it and apply the theory to the new environment.

Original question, does the stigma hurt? World 1 and 2, yes - if vigilantes go around decapitating the pedophiles who stepped forward, pedophiles won't step forward any more. Just like grade school; if you tell the teacher you spilled on your books you get in trouble, so don't tell the teacher. It also helps, in that we take them seriously, but the stigma does more harm than good - respecting and understanding a threat makes you treat things seriously, respect of forest fires, respect of gas leaks. World 3, the stigma doesn't hurt anything by virtue of the world's so crazy the pedophiles don't care if you hate them, hunt them down and skullfuck them in public.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2003 5:46 pm 
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Tyhm wrote:
Dammit CD, there's no such thing as innocent or accidental rape! "I was drunk" is not a Get Out Of Jail Free card, because you're the one who let yourself get drunk in the first place!


He didn't say he was drunk. He is sober she is not. She might not have consented if she were sober. Therefore he would be guilty of rape. Even though there would be no way of telling whether or not she would have consented or not. So if she overreacts then he gets blamed.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2003 5:59 pm 
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There are a few fundamental flaws in the context of the basis of this discussion, allow me to point them out (nicely).

There is no such thing as a "natural" pedophile. By far, the vast majority of pedophiles are those that have experienced severe mental and sometimes physical abuse, like being victimized by another pedophile. A true-to-fact certainty about the human nature is that we gravitate towards that which has deviated us. A young pedophile is someone who has been the recipient of some type of abuse. Being physically attracted to children is a conditioned response, not genetics.

Secondly, a psychologist is required to "report" someone who is a danger to themselves or others. As children receive special protection under the law, intent to interact with them sexually would constitute "harm to others". This does not mean that police show up at the person’s door. What this does mean, is that the situation is documented outside of the psychologists office. Please keep in mind also that a psychologist cannot commit someone, as they are not a medical doctor. Committal to a mental health institution would require a psychiatrist, just the same as a prescription. A thought is not, and never has been a crime. I promise you that no one is in prison because they "thought" about doing something. By beginning an official record of someone, if the patient’s condition deteriorates to the point that they specifically threaten to "harm others", the psychologist will report the incident to the police, who will in turn still not be able to do anything. That record exists for nothing more than the purpose of building a solid case against an individual who commits a crime, and is tried in case where it is his/her word against someone else’s.

The issue of morality in this case is very difficult. True, as a society we owe it too each other to attempt to help someone if we have the ability. If a person suffering from this problem seeks help, they should be able to find it, and everything within reason (financially, morally, and practically) should be done to alleviate this condition.

My personal opinion though, and one that is sometimes expressed in court hearings, is that having committed a crime of the nature being discussed here, the perpetrator has waived their rights as a victim. Until they victimize another person, they can and are usually regarded as victims themselves, and measures are taken to help them. But once they cross that line, their needs and interests are forfeit. The mantle of the victim has now been passed on to the person that was victimized. In the case of child perpetrators, they typically receive a 50/50 share of blame and understanding when they commit these crimes. Help is usually afforded to them, the quality of which though varies by location and available state or private insurance funding. It is widely accepted however, that once they turn 18 that the obligation to treat them as any type of victim has legally expired. This is the burden of adulthood, and cannot be over looked. We as a society, for the preservation of the principles of responsibility and the safety of children, have to draw that line in the sand.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2003 6:53 pm 
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So what, if you were the victim of sufficient torture to turn you into a potential pedophile you should be treated? Sure, but we're in a world where it's untreatable (apparently). Still, assuming it's treatable, see above: those who can be prevented from becoming a threat must be prevented from becoming a threat, those who cannot must be executed. It's not about feeling sorry for the poor monsters, it's about eliminating as many of them as possible as efficiently as possible.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2003 7:12 pm 
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[berserker rant] Brainfart, don't even start that shit. I was abused in the same way, and I have no fucking intention of ruining some other child's life by selfishly fucking them for my own needs. That's one of the oldest crutches I've ever fucking heard. There's no excuse for this sort of behavior, period. If they're truly that far gone that they need help, then give it to them. But as soon as they commit the crime, they're meeting the business end of my dad's 30.6. Period. Please stop spouting needless "Feel sorry for the monster" propoganda, and feel free to give something to the debate that's worthwhile. *gives MiB back his shoe full of hate*[/end berserker rant]

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2003 7:13 pm 
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Tyhm wrote:
So what, if you were the victim of sufficient torture to turn you into a potential pedophile you should be treated? Sure, but we're in a world where it's untreatable (apparently). Still, assuming it's treatable, see above: those who can be prevented from becoming a threat must be prevented from becoming a threat, those who cannot must be executed. It's not about feeling sorry for the poor monsters, it's about eliminating as many of them as possible as efficiently as possible.


I hope you were not refering to my post when you stated "see above". I'm not for that. What I am advocating, and this seems to be the general medical and legal consensus, is that it takes monstrosity to create a monster. Whatever can be reasonably done to help turn that monster around should and usually is attempted. However, when that victim becomes the monster by vicimizing someone else, they have waived their right to be treated as a victim anymore. When you harm someone else, your interests are forfeit...this is what it is to be a criminal.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2003 7:19 pm 
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Ryven wrote:
[berserker rant] Brainfart, don't even start that shit. I was abused in the same way, and I have no fucking intention of ruining some other child's life by selfishly fucking them for my own needs. That's one of the oldest crutches I've ever fucking heard. There's no excuse for this sort of behavior, period. If they're truly that far gone that they need help, then give it to them. But as soon as they commit the crime, they're meeting the business end of my dad's 30.6. Period. Please stop spouting needless "Feel sorry for the monster" propoganda, and feel free to give something to the debate that's worthwhile. *gives MiB back his shoe full of hate*[/end berserker rant]


Whoa, go back up and read that again. Firstly I never said that in being victimzed, you automatically are going to victimize someone else. What I DID say, is that in almost every case, the perpetrator was at one point victimized themselves. Does this make it any less horrible when they commit an act? Of course not. I never even hinted at that. As a matter of fact, I stated that once they have victimized someone else, they are no longer victims themselves, they are now the perpetrator. The law reflectst this, and I think it accurately and fairly treats them as the monsters that they are.

Saying that a perpetrator of a sexual crime was probably the victim of sexual abuse themselves at one point is not an excuse, its and explanation. If we do not properly define, categorize, and diagnose a probelm and its causes, how are we ever going to attempt to stop this from happening? Killing them all is a great idea and all, but you won't be able to kill them until after they commit the crime, because you don't have ESP. In that sense, what have you solved?

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2003 7:22 pm 
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Ensuring that children don't have to worry about yet another one of those monsters. That's what it solves. He rapes little Suzy? Well, he dies. Period.

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Ryven wrote:
Ensuring that children don't have to worry about yet another one of those monsters. That's what it solves. He rapes little Suzy? Well, he dies. Period.


That is truly my personal feeling on the matter as well Ryven. Firstly. I have a son, he will be a year old this weekend. Second, I also have a glock 9mm sitting in my nightstand. If one of the people we have been discussing encountered the first, then next thing he/she/it would encounter is the later. I know this is not technically right, but I also know that I wouldnt really give a shit about that if I found myself in that situation.

Honestly, I don't think that much time and resources are wasted on "adult" perpetrators of molestation. I should have pointed out in my last post, that in my first post, I was reffering to offenders who are themselves minors. It does happen, and that is where law and medicine agree that efforts should be made to turn the offender around. As I stated though, that all goes out the window when they reach 18. Sadly enough, the reality is that as many as 1/4 of the sexual predators out there are minors. Even more morose is the fact that even if caught and committed to a facility, most of the time the money either runs out, or the offender reaches the age of 18 before they are really safe to be released (many never are safe to re-enter society), and is released back into the population. I am unaware if the notification laws cover these individuals, as most crimes committed by minors are not open to the public. The bottom line is that many of these monsters are in fact caught as minors, but are released back into society, where they victimize again.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2003 8:37 pm 
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"I'm 16 so it's okay that I brutally rape a 12 year old and leave her for dead because I'm misunderstood?" No.

Before they do something, if they can be dissuaded from ever doing something, maybe. Once you've done it though, your ass is grass. Period. See the previous posts for some particularly fitting ends for such people, minor or not.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2003 8:51 pm 
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Tyhm wrote:
"I'm 16 so it's okay that I brutally rape a 12 year old and leave her for dead because I'm misunderstood?" No.

Before they do something, if they can be dissuaded from ever doing something, maybe. Once you've done it though, your ass is grass. Period. See the previous posts for some particularly fitting ends for such people, minor or not.


I'm not going to argue with you about the minor issue. As is the case with minors who kill, its a tough call to determine where the line should be drawn. I'm personally glad I am not a Federal Judge faced with making that decision. Its too damn tough.

Just to clear this up though, this is the second time that someone has skewed what I have said for the sake of their own point. I never said that it was "ok". Besides calling them monsters, and stating that they have forfeited any rights they may have had when they commit the crime, I really don't see any other way to express I am not advocating that age determines whether it is wrong or not.

If your going to respond to my post's, have the decency to read them. I may be a nOOb, but that doesn't mean that my statements have any less value, or should garner less respect than anyone else's. I understand this is an emotional topic for some people, but that doesn't give someone the right to warp things into some ridiculous ascertion that I never even hinted at. If this sounds like bitching, thats because it is. I have not stated, nor have I even implied that child molestation is in any way excusable, understandable, or even that the people responsible are worthy of sympathy. If your seeing that in my post's, then its a personal problem.

EDIT: Also, if the notion that most pedophiles are created through being themselves molested bothers you, and you would rather think of it as simply occuring out of thin air, then please continue to live in ignorance. There will just be this little thing called SCIENCE that disagree's with you, and pedophiles will continue to prey on children while we rely on the equivalent of the fucking magic 8 ball theory to solve the problem.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2003 9:02 pm 
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No, actually that's exactly the definition of a n00b.

Regardless of what Law and Medicine say, there is no more nor less reason to attempt to treat a pedophile under 18 than over. The line should be drawn at action, not age; if a 40 year old man's thinking about becoming a pedophile, he should be treated, and if a 12 year old kid rapes his little sister's friend, he should be shot. It's a safety thing if nothing else.

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