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PostPosted: Sun Nov 09, 2003 7:22 pm 
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And of course you can't be bothered to post something that would redeem the thread. Besides, she'd got a good amount of cohesion in those quotes, links and the little "Oh how I hate teh world" there is.


In response to MiB's explanation of anticipatory socialization: So what? That's one way to do things, a kind of insurance if you will, and then there is the uninsured way. Having a whole society like that without any consent from the individuals is an enforced communism, and an oppressive one at that. Now that we have a definition of this kind of behavior clear, why do you [plural] assume that we all have to live by it?


Oh, and in case anybody is interested, I figured out the "Does having sex equate to making a commitment to the potential child?" dilemma. The difference between the marriage contract between John and Mrs. Doe and the possible commitment from parents to a possible fetus is that the whole point of the marriage contract is just that, the contract. On the other hand, I've neither met nor heard tell of a couple who've said "Okay, let's symbolisze our commitment to a child that might or might not be concieved tonight by screwing like monkeys." People have sex for the sake of having sex, not for concieving a child (speaking in general terms). Remember what Heinlein said; I don't have a copy of Stanger in a Strange Land with me, but it went somethine along the lines of "Out of the hundreds, thousands of times a woman might give herself to a man, she will only bear one or two or a dozen children." Children are a side effect of sex, not the purpose for it (again, speaking in non-biological terms), while a marriage contract exists for the sole purpose of binding two individuals together. Now, one might argue that contracts can have clauses and colloraries, but this argument lacks credibility, for who signs the contract? Why, those who are most closely involved in negotiating, creating and carrying out said cotract, and so the participants (note: NOT the fetus, since before the sexual act none can argue that it has any sort of conciousness at all) may dictate whatever type of contract they desire, with or without provisions for a conception. If there are such provisions, it should be assumed that the parents will follow them (though since theirs are the sole signatures on the proverbial contract, there's no reason that they have to abide by it if both parties wish to reneg), and if there are none, then it is of course the mother's prerogitive, for all the reasons which I discussed above (the fetus, human or not, has no right to live at the unwilling expense of the mother, no matter how slight).

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 09, 2003 8:38 pm 
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Spei: Quite simply, it happens with everyone. Its quite subtle, it doesn't rule us, but its an example of why we're more sympathetic to John Doe on a resperator, or for that matter someone walking down the street, than a fetus.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 09, 2003 9:57 pm 
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Yes, I understand this, and I understand the reasons for it, but in an actual debate, or when we have to decide on something as serious as abortion rights, how does it affect the decision? We aren't debating whether or not John Doe deserves sympathy, we're debating on whether or not a woman has the right to terminate the life of her unborn child. The safety net society discussion is kinda interesting, actually, but it's not even close to on topic as it has been presented thusfar.

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 Post subject: Kudos to those who recognize the picture.
PostPosted: Sun Nov 09, 2003 10:29 pm 
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You asked a question, Spei?

Lucis Spei wrote:
Asmodeus wrote:
But really, for some reason I just do not think this is something for us males to have an opinion on... They don't get pregnant, (Apart from in VERY distubing fan fiction, and that one episode of Red Dwarf.) women do.


That's a cop-out, like saying only psychopaths have the right to judge, defend, or control other psychopaths. It is an empirical fact that in a society the members of said society have to pass judgement on others who are not exactly like themselves, for many reasons (foremost among them being that the accused(s) might have an impact on the rest of society).


That's the thing. Psychopaths can harm others. If you are affected, you have a right to some influence in the matter. Suicide is legal (though not encouraged, certainly), but murder isn't.

This is similar how to one can use their rights as long as that use does not infringe on other's rights.

I have not been in position to see a law ruled unconstitutional or anything along those lines without seeing someone being harmed by that law first, and bringing it to court.

I do not see these men being affected very much by abortion.

Personally? I do not know, myself, what is right. In the absence of that, I'll go for freedom.

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 Post subject: Re: Kudos to those who recognize the picture.
PostPosted: Sun Nov 09, 2003 10:47 pm 
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Okagenoyume wrote:
That's the thing. Psychopaths can harm others. If you are affected, you have a right to some influence in the matter. Suicide is legal (though not encouraged, certainly), but murder isn't.

This is similar how to one can use their rights as long as that use does not infringe on other's rights.


Well, if you've already murdered someone, and it was successful, and they're dead, then whose buiness is it to prosecute you? The family and friends? Well, they were only indirectly affected. They still get to prosecute, you say? Well, then so does the rest of the populace. Someone has to pass judgement in a society, and in a democracy, that means the people have to pass judgement.

Okagenoyume wrote:
I have not been in position to see a law ruled unconstitutional or anything along those lines without seeing someone being harmed by that law first, and bringing it to court.


Well, that's because breaking a law you think is unconstitutional and taking your case up the courts is the generally accepted way of changing a law like that. That case that was labelled the Monkey Trial, for example, the one that the movie Inherit the Wind was based on, businessmen and town leaders actually put an add in the paper for a teacher to violate the state ordinance that banned Darwinism in public schools.


Okagenoyume wrote:
I do not see these men being affected very much by abortion.


Maybe not, but they are (un)fairly elected officials or the appointees thereof, and they therefore have to sit and debate and judge and legislate about stuff that concerns the people they govern, despite not being directly affected by it.

Okagenoyume wrote:
Personally? I do not know, myself, what is right. In the absence of that, I'll go for freedom?


Okay, but there are people who think they do know what is right, and they're gonna push their views around, so you must excuse me while I join them. Please don't take any of this as pro-lifeism, pro-Bushism, or conservatism in any way. I just dislike the alignment liberal ignorant enough to argue when it rears its ugly head.

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 Post subject: And I do not wish to get mired in the cases of "State vs. person" of which numerous examples abound.
PostPosted: Sun Nov 09, 2003 11:18 pm 
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Lucis Spei wrote:
Well, then so does the rest of the populace.

Why? I don't see them being affected, even indirectly, by the loss. I do, however, see many people hurt when someone dies.

In the case of an abortion, who is most directly affected?

If you are assaulted, do you have the choice to not press charges?

Lucis Spei wrote:
Okagenoyume wrote:
I have not been in position to see a law ruled unconstitutional or anything along those lines without seeing someone being harmed by that law first, and bringing it to court.


Well, that's because breaking a law you think is unconstitutional and taking your case up the courts is the generally accepted way of changing a law like that. That case that was labelled the Monkey Trial, for example, the one that the movie Inherit the Wind was based on, businessmen and town leaders actually put an add in the paper for a teacher to violate the state ordinance that banned Darwinism in public schools.


Yes. I'm aware of that (though I admittedly never heard of that movie). Just not why you're bringing it up.

Lucis Spei wrote:
Okagenoyume wrote:
I do not see these men being affected very much by abortion.


Maybe not, but they are (un)fairly elected officials or the appointees thereof, and they therefore have to sit and debate and judge and legislate about stuff that concerns the people they govern, despite not being directly affected by it.

The point of this picture was to frighten you. I mean, look at how happy they all are! Creepy old men.

Lucis Spei wrote:
Okagenoyume wrote:
Personally? I do not know, myself, what is right. In the absence of that, I'll go for freedom?


Okay, but there are people who think they do know what is right, and they're gonna push their views around, so you must excuse me while I join them.


I'm commited in my indecision. I don't believe we, as a whole, know what's just and right in this case; thus I don't think we should make a decision until we're relatively sure[size=0]I'll not go on about the rights of the minority, and such[/size]. And, in the absence of a solid decision, I think choice is best, no? Works well for religion, I've noted.

Lucis Spei wrote:
Please don't take any of this as pro-lifeism, pro-Bushism, or conservatism in any way.

Not at all; it's simply your view on a particular issue[size=0]I believe and hope. In many other cases, it might certainly be such, and one can never entirely be free from outside influence.[/size].

Lucis Spei wrote:
I just dislike the alignment liberal ignorant enough to argue when it rears its ugly head.


Oh my! Was that an indirect insult? Regardless, I'll argue my lack of convictions, not, I believe, my ignorance.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 10, 2003 8:46 am 
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Spei: The point being we should realize just why so many people can see "well, kill it, what do I care?" without much of a twinge of concious. We really should realize the thought process that leads us to said place. When John Doe is killed, we feel loss, if proper loss (as he was braindead.) If we knew he would wake up in a few hours and recover over some years, we would consider it murder. Why not the same for a baby? Because a lot of people can't sympathize with something that will never (in their minds) be in the position of, while we can do the mental exercises to be in the position of John Doe.

More directly on topic, the application of this being that I believe "well its not human" arguements stem from this dissosiation with the fetus' position. Though obviously at some point quite human, in every manner of the word save (and does this really make you not a human?) being completely dependant on someone else, the pro-abortion folks like to dehumanize the fetus, as if the dependancy on an outside force matters to such an extent as they claim; as I have pointed out, do you kill John Doe, if he will wake up in 10 hours, to save yourself money? Time? Effort? But all these have been brought to bear as good reasons to have an abortion. Since you did not agree to have this horrible burden thrust upon you, is it not right to kill John Doe then?

So, why a fetus? For now I won't rule out abortion completely; under certain circumstances that law can get pretty damn stupid. But, can we at least agree at *some* point the fetus should have equal rights to any other human walking around, or does life not really start until birth?

I'll post more later; I have a paper I need to wrap up.

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PostPosted: Sat May 29, 2004 11:45 am 
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IcyMonkey wrote:
First trimester abortion is perfectly fine. At this stage the fetus is less advanced than your average house plant (mentally, anyway), so there's nothing morally wrong with destroying it. That is, unless you believe in the idea that a fetus is given a human soul at conception, but such an idea is mystical/religious, and religious ideas have no place in legal distinction.

Second trimester abortion is a little less clear cut, but is still largely permissible. It really depends on how late in the second trimester the abortion is.

Third trimester abortion is murder, plain and simple.


Don't really need to say anything else.

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 Post subject: Re: Right to Choice or Right to Life
PostPosted: Sun May 30, 2004 10:08 am 
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Akuma Kei wrote:

...

I believe that fundamentally, Abortion is wrong. It is the destruction of a life that never had a chance to experience that which its destroyers did. But further, I see it as an act of irresponsibility on the part of both parents. And here's why.

...

That being said, I see that the moment a person decides to engage in sexual activity, they are agreeing that they are able and willing to live with the results of that action. AIDS, syphyllis, pregnancy. All are possible consequences that by taking part in the act of Sex you agree to live with should they arise. Some can be treated. Others can't. But whatever the outcome is, it is a direct result of your choices. Choices that cannot be unmade. Choices that you have the responsibility to live with.

...



To your question, a question: If a person had no choice in the matter as to wether or not she became pregnant - rape springs to mind - is it still irresponsible for her to seek abortion? What if precautions were taken, but whatever preservatives were used malfunctioned during the act?

As with most matters important enough to debate, no solution will ever encompass all possible scenarios. While I am apalled at the thought of killing off human life, I am willing to accept abortion as an imprefect solution. As with most things, if people truly desire something making it illegal will only make them seek other means. The alternative is having a lot of women risking their lives in some backalley clinic, where you can't be sure the person(s) performing the operation are properly trained or even using clean implements.

It is a very difficult grey area to decide when the fetus is a bag of primoreal soup attached to a womans body and when it is a living, sentient being. I'm in no way qualified to make that judgement myself and neither shall I make the attempt to define it. Wether or not it would be acceptable for any potential parent to get an abortion is best judged on a per-case basis, as any number of exterior circumstances could sway the validity of the option either way. I think that to some extent, the doctor ought to be involved in the decision-making process as well, as the doctor will be performing the actual operation and thus share in the responsibility of the outcome.

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PostPosted: Mon May 31, 2004 12:26 pm 
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Well, there is no scientific concensus on when exactly the fetus becomes a human being, right?

In a moral manner, it then defaults to the fetus being alive, in a "just to be safe" mode, I assume. So, when responsible (ie non-uber-religious and non-feminist-majority) come to a concensus, "after x time the fetus is technically an independant human being" then lets put the line of abortions there, if not, the moral thing to do would be to play it safe and not have any unless under strict circumstances (I would put it in the hands of a Judge, myself.)

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 04, 2004 3:20 pm 
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Whenever I hear the phrase "it's the mother's choice", I always wonder: "What about the kids choice?" Don't they get a say in whether or not somebody kills them with poison, cutsthem off from the womb, or slices en their skulls and vacuums ut the brain? And what about the father? You know, he kinda contributed to that fetus. Doesn't he get a say in the fate of what he helped create?

It's a human being, no if's, and's, or but's about it. It's alive in the strictest sense. Doesn't matter if it's "mentally developed". Is it okay to kill off retarded people? They're not "mentally developed" either. A human has a right to live, period. There are only three times when the slaying of another person is acceptable: as punishment for murder (legal punishment, not vigilantie or assassination), in defense of yourself or another person, and in times of war, which basically falls under the defense thing, 'cause if you don't shoot him, he'll shoot you.

The part where it's okay to execute the baby so long as it doesn't have air in its lungs just cracks me up. Always looking for excuses for ourselves, aren't we. A doctor went to prison for manslaughter because he killed a baby after it inhaled air, but it was okay for him to cut open the head and suck the brains out of living children previously because none of them had the chance to begin breathing. Cracks me up.

Therefore, in my opinion, abortion is murder, plain and simple. Perhaps it would be justifiable for valid medical reasons, such as lose the baby or the mother, or lose one baby or lose all of them (presuming two or more fetuses), etc. but even then it should be a last resort.

If human life is allowed to be casually exterminated because it's an inconvenience to someone, then fine. Lemme just go grab a couple of assault rifles and mow down everyone at the movie theater. Fewer people to stand in front of me while buying tickets. Heck, rush hour traffic will be a breeze with an RPG-7 to take care of the idiots who habitially cut me off,then flip me the bird. Who cares? They were an inconvenience and it was my choice whether or not I could waste them. I chose to pull the plug. Hey, got kids who are getting to be a hassle? Hold 'em under the water at bath time, it's the mother's choice! Son didn't graduate from college with honors? Strangle the dumb bastard, he'll just continue to be a financial drain on you.

Those who are party to abortion are no better than the extremist lunatics who sit outside clinics with rifles waiting to pick off the doctors and nurses who kill the infants. Murder is murder, no two ways about it.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 04, 2004 6:15 pm 
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What of the 12 year old girl who is impregnated? Sure she's a stupid twat for having sex at that age, but, it's too late for that now. If she has the baby, odds say both will probably die during labour. If they both survive, she cannot take care of this child, it would end up in the adoption cue. Is that a good life for the child? Every woman/girl whould be able to make her own damn choice.

There's a sign in my city "Choose Life". This weekend I'm changing the sign to "Choose your own Life"

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Last edited by Skjie on Sat Jun 05, 2004 5:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 04, 2004 10:06 pm 
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I_M: You're saying that destroying a zygote, say, one that had just been fertilized and is still a single cell, is immoral? And if that isn't immoral, then where exactly do we draw the line? Being genetically human != having rights. If that were the case, I'd be commiting genocide every time I jacked off. There are 100 million sperm in every individual ejaculation. If each of those sperm is entitled to human rights because it contains human genetic material, then that basically means my right hand is responsible for a tragedy twenty times worse than the holocaust.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 05, 2004 3:12 am 
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Skjie wrote:
There's a sign in my city "Choose Life". This weekend I'm changing the sign to "Choose you're own Life"


You're own?


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 05, 2004 3:34 am 
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Skjie wrote:
Me, me, me....


You do realise that you are a selfish and self-absorbed creature right?

I find this a lot in the free and easy set. As no-one else will love them beyond the short-term, they are forced to love themselves.


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Forevergrey wrote:
Skjie wrote:
Me, me, me....


You do realise that you are a selfish and self-absorbed creature right?

Please explain?

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 05, 2004 6:02 pm 
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Me thoughts on this:

Aborting the child after it begins to develope consiousness is murder. Before that, it has the mental capacity of a houseplant, as Icy said. The only time I believe murder is justified is when they deserve it (another issue, let's not get into it as it's pretty case-by-case).

If you can't bring yourself to destroy the developing fetus, fine, good for you. If you do abort, good for you. Make your own choices, and don't push them onto other people.

Skjie, all humans are self absorbed, as self preservation is the most powerful human instinct. Also, humans like to do anything to make their life more comfortable. It's not like it's a bad thing, after all if you're self absorbed you more stuff.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2004 5:21 pm 
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Make abortion an option to those who were raped. People have the right to fuck, but a lot of stupid people fuck, making stupid babies. If it's your own fault, you should have to be stuck raising the stupid baby.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 09, 2004 8:25 am 
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If you don't want the baby, give it to somebody who does. There are plenty of people out there who CAN'T get knocked up but want to be. Quit being selfish and think of other people for once. For example, the developing child who will never even get a chance at life or make a single decision for themselves because you decided it was an inconvience.

Eggs and sperm are yours to do with as you please. They're part of your body, have fun with them. When they combine and all those chromosones get together to make a person, then it ain't part of your body anymore. It's someone elses body. You're just the life support pod and person responsible for ensuring that that person reaches the point in life where they can make their own decisions.

Not to mention the physical and mental trauma of the women who have abortions. They kinda leave out the part about you being literally scarred for life in 90% of the operations.

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