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how do you describe tolkien ?
hack 67%  67%  [ 8 ]
really hack 33%  33%  [ 4 ]
Total votes : 12
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 Post subject: tolkien: illiterate hack or brilliant author ?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 30, 2003 2:04 am 
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here's something to get you all started ...
irc wrote:
proradium: 'lo
proradium starts writing his dissertion on why tolkien sucks ;)
Killane: Tolkien was sexist
proradium: hmmm .. true .. any more stuff i can add ?
Clay: Somewhat, but the man was OLD in the early 20th century
when he wrote the books, what did you expect?
proradium: oh nothing, i'm just trying to piss off ez and wraith ...
proradium: and the fact that i truly _do_ hate his work
Clay: You are a sad, shallow man.
Rusty: ... He was over-descriptive, in my opinion.
proradium: clay -- why yes, ... yes i am
Clay: Duh
Killane: he was a doody-head
proradium: rusty -- you haven't read hemmingway then ...
Clay: Or Moby Dick
Rusty: Nope.
Rusty: I haven't read either.
Rusty: Or rather...
Clay: Try it, you'll FAIL!
proradium: ...
Rusty: I haven't read any Hemmingway, nor have I read Moby Dick.
Killane: also he had a skewed perspective of the world due to his
sheltered upbringing and religious background. He is seen
as "Pappa Tolkien" the father of modern fantasy, yet his
was a story that had been done before as in the ancient
travelling bardic tales. He was more of a composition
artist than an author.
Killane: and he was a doody head
proradium: point to killane
proradium: comeon -- we need more on why tolkien sucks
Killane: GUESS WHOSE BRAIN IS BROKEN RIGHT NOW!?
Killane falls down and twitches
Killane: he had a big nose
proradium hmmm .. that might work ...
proradium how about one word : hobbits ....
Rusty: ... I've read gay hobbit sex fanfics before.
Rusty: They were hillarious.
Killane: Since he was an author in a time when he was paid by the
word, he tended to be overly loquacious in his descriptions
so as to pad his wallet. Many people see his work as
"gospel" for fantasy design, but some of the best fantasy
work has been directly divergent from his type-cast
characters and settings, for instance, the work of David
Eddings is...cont.
proradium waits ...
Killane: considered to be an excellent source for young authors to
learn how to develop their character development skills.
The Sci Fi work of Orson Scott Card is one of the best
sources for learning to think from a genius' point of view
without radical mind-altering chemicals....cont.
proradium lists his fav authors whilst waiting - jordan, eddings, fiest, tamora pierce, adams ....
proradium: ooh ooh - and of course card -- can't forget the mind fuck
that is enders game
proradium: so far i'm agreeing with you ...
Rusty: Salinger, Clavelle, Orwell...
Rusty: That about sums it up, really.
Killane: If you're looking for a well-developed robotic society, look
to Robert A Heinlien and Isaac Asimov, but for straight
fantasy with the best character development ever, if the
first author that comes to mind is "Pappa" Tolkien, you're
fucking illiterate. ~fin~
proradium: absofuckinglutely
Killane: will, that be anough to help for a while?
proradium: it will help annoy ez if nothing else ;)
proradium: thanks
Killane: is this a High School or a COllege paper?
Rusty: ... It's just to piss of EZ.
Killane: or something personal?
proradium: personal and to piss of ez
proradium: *off
Killane: okay, then add in that Tolkien's mom dresses him funny


DISCUSS .. about tolkien that is, feel free to add in any more well known sci-fi/fantasy authors and your views of them as well ...

EDIT: oh yeh, and the poll is just a joke ... ignore it if you want to ...


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Oct 30, 2003 4:19 am 
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I wouldn't say Tolkien is an excellent author per se; but the LOTR is a masterpiece, the main problem is that that is his only really great book. I have also read the hobbit (when i was 6/7 and then again when i was 17) and as i child it was one of the best books i had ever read; but reading it again, after reading LOTR, in hindsight it just wasn't that great. The plot was rambling and frankly quite lame, characterisation minimal and even the final battle simply wasn't that exciting. But in the context of it being a childrens book it excels.

The Silmarillions was way too wordy; I read it, but under pains.

PTLIS

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Oct 30, 2003 8:37 am 
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Well, the first thing that should be mentioned is, of course, that Tolkein was not a writer at all. He was a Professor of Language and Literature. The stories were made up for his and his families amusement not for professional publication. His primary goal was the creation of the languages and the world they existed in.

When he was pursuaded to write the Lord of the Rings, an epic fantasy story, for publication he focused on the story not the characters.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 30, 2003 5:59 pm 
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Quote:
for publication he focused on the story not the characters.


And yet in doing so, he laid down many of the fantasy/medieval archetypes springing up in writings at the time. His characterization could have been better, sure ... but it wasn't absolutely horrendous. He brought together the universal disposition of elfs, of wizards and warlords, and such.

AAAND he neatly laid down Self, Hero, Anima, and (of course) the Shadow archetypes ... as well as plenty of others.

With purtiful language and a kickass storyline.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 02, 2003 7:39 pm 
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darksetyuna wrote:
Quote:
for publication he focused on the story not the characters.


And yet in doing so, he laid down many of the fantasy/medieval archetypes springing up in writings at the time. His characterization could have been better, sure ... but it wasn't absolutely horrendous.


I disaggree. A lot. Legolas and Gimli were bit characters, at best, Merry and Pippin were essentially identical, Arwen was the nebulous "Lady Love," Eowyn was little else than Tolkien's example of how women belong at home (sure, she killed the Lord Nazgul, but when confronted with a sinlge soppy Prince Handsome, she decided to be a housewife), Gandalf and Aragorn were a main parts of the story, but we never saw their motivations, inner thoughts, or anything of that nature, King Theoden and the Seneschal of Gondor (I forget his name, Boromir and Faramir's father) were set example pieces, and Frodo and Sam? Bah, the brave little English boy and his faithful man<strike>slave</strike>servant. the only characters with any depth at all were Boromir, Faramir (who were really just contrasting choices), and poor forgotten Smeagol. Tolkien was not an author, nor was he a story teller.

Meh... that's my general blurb on Tolkien, I'll post more when I'm not so hungry and tired. In a nutshell, Tolkien is crap is you want a modern fantasy novel; but if you want something more comprable to Beowulf, he's decent, sort of (remember, Tolkien was principally building languages and the world to host them, not a story and certainly not character sketches).

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 02, 2003 7:58 pm 
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What Tolkien Officially Said About Elf Sex

and of course http://www.elfporn.com...

heh.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 02, 2003 9:30 pm 
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Ever since the movie of the book Fellowship of the Ring came out, there seem to be two popular ideas about Elves’ sex lives. Either they are radiantly asexual, or they are all screwing each other madly, along with any dwarves, hobbits, and men who happen along. Whichever you prefer is usually based on how attractive you think Orlando Bloom is.


I know for a fact that Orlando Bloom is very sexxxy (note the three "x"s). About have of the girls in my school are infatuated with him, one of which has made serious offers to sleep with and/or wed him (she also happens to be the pretty strawberry blonde with aspirations of Ph.Ds in seven disciplines, to give you an idea of how wierd it is to see her go as [and I quote]: "Orlanda Bloom" for Halloween). So that means that all I have to do is find a- Hey! What's this?

Quote:
Apparently, there was some parental will involved in the act of begetting. Either that, or they were having so little sex that it was easy to remember. “Pregnant? How did that happen? Oh, that Thursday three turns of the seasons ago. Oh yeah…”


Oh please oh please let it be the first one...

Quote:
Tolkien said absolutely nothing about elf puberty. Nonetheless, I assume it occurs.


Ah, so there is a time when you can take advantage of uncertain, discouraged, Junior High age (or the equivalent) elven girls.

Quote:
One scholar of elvish languages, Helge Fauskanger (web site Ardalambion,) has said that “Somewhere there may be a sealed envelope containing a piece of paper with the Elvish designations of the genitals, furtively set down by Tolkien behind locked doors.” but that they haven’t been uncovered. Revealed. Uncensored. I can’t imagine Tolkien’s literary estate letting them out the gate, even if they do exist.


None the less, you know that he made the words, and probably never even considered that some people might try to hide them.

Quote:
There is also a recorded instance of an elf-man falling in love with a human woman. (Legolas fans, please stay calm.)


Oh, I know some people I should be sending this to...

Quote:
To disappoint slash writers everywhere, there were no clear statements of elf homosexuality. There weren’t even any unclear ones. The most suggestive elf/elf pair are Fingon* and Maedhros, rescuing each other and sending each other presents just because. (Narn i Hîn Húrin, UF) But even they have less eyebrow-raising stuff going on in 500 years than Sam and Frodo managed to pack into one day.


Awww... so this little gem that I've been scarring AIM friends with isn't in character? Shucks...


All in all, I found that site to be informative, interesting, and g3enerally a worthwhile waste of ten minutes.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 02, 2003 10:48 pm 
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Lucis Spei wrote:
I know for a fact that Orlando Bloom is very sexxxy (note the three "x"s). About have of the girls in my school are infatuated with him, one of which has made serious offers to sleep with and/or wed him (she also happens to be the pretty strawberry blonde with aspirations of Ph.Ds in seven disciplines, to give you an idea of how wierd it is to see her go as [and I quote]: "Orlanda Bloom" for Halloween). So that means that all I have to do is find a- Hey! What's this?


At times like this I wished I looked more like Orlando Bloom and less like Hanson. -.-

[/pointless post]

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2003 8:23 pm 
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On the general topic, Tolkien was a trulyu brilliant creator , of a sort, he created a truly brilliant universe in vivid detail, and he deserves credit for that.

Bad side is that his Character development Rates about at the same level as Robert Heinlein (He only had 4 characters and 3 were just age variations on the same guy.) Better than Asimov, but who isn't. Merry and Pippen were an identical sort of composite character. Still, I did like the Gimli and Legolas comedy team. Gandalf was actually fairly well developed, probably the only complete character in the series.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 12, 2003 8:50 am 
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seeing as how his world has a few thousand years of history you can forgive him for not fleshing out *all* of the characters, especially the men who only live for, at best, 100 years, Elves and Dwarfs get teh better characters as they have more time in the world and it's history and Gandalf being a Wizard basicly is there all the time, hence gets far more of a character

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 14, 2003 11:36 am 
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ollie wrote:
seeing as how his world has a few thousand years of history you can forgive him for not fleshing out *all* of the characters, especially the men who only live for, at best, 100 years, Elves and Dwarfs get teh better characters as they have more time in the world and it's history and Gandalf being a Wizard basicly is there all the time, hence gets far more of a character


As we can clearly see here, Mr. Appleby is clearly not a linguist or a grammarian. However, I do feel he has a good point. What happened, Ollie? Spending too much time with Scouting_Scubble?

Tolkien wasn't a hack in any sense of the word. He created something monumental that cannot be denied.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 14, 2003 12:38 pm 
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you should have been there when i went through my dissertation to clean up the language, it took a whole day, i have a terrible habit of running written sentances out as i do conversations you see, my next forum post will be linguistic <I>art</I>

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2003 7:55 pm 
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Tolkien was a master of the english language, not character creation. He did EXACTLY what he intended to in the books I've read of his.

He wanted to create and epic world in LOTR and succeeded beyond his wildest dreams.

The Hobbit was written for 5th graders and younger, not adult consumption, and is still a very very good book for the young folks.

He wanted to write a history book with the silmarion (sic) and that is EXACTLY what it is.

He wasn't a hack. He didn't pretend to create great characters but he did create one of the most enduring fictional worlds ever, a world theoretically part of our own.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2003 8:09 pm 
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He actually had to be talked into continuing writing on it. Early on he wanted to quit because he wasn't enjoying it but his wife convinced him to do more. You can almost feel the nerdity of it grow as the story progresses. Obviously he took a liking/obsession to it later on.

I always thought the silmarillion was less a historical novel and more of a Bible for Middle Earth. Though he obviously vented a great deal of his historical ideas into it. It reads much more like a religious text than any sort of historical account.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2003 9:15 pm 
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The most bitter diatribes I've seen against Tolkien seem to involve the world viewpoint of the critics. None of them can seem to accept the fact that there is no great love story happening somewhere or that the story is not somehow about human growth or understanding of the human psyche. The story is in fact a journalistic telling of a desperate,hopeless attempt at stopping the Ultimate Ebil. The story was written in a time of war in a country decimated and clinging to a hopeless hope. The grimness of the times is on eminent display and for some reason evokes a revulsion by its critics that in itself should be a testament to its artistic value since the value of a work of art is determined by its ability to evoke extreme emotion. The critics worldview is too much at odds with the story to recognize the alien attitudes of its characters. And of course most of the characters are alien to the human experience. The fact that the critics cannot connect to them in a human way is taken as bad writing and not as a fault (gasp!) in the critics ability suspend his disbelief and enter Tolkiens world.


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 Post subject: Not postwhoring, just giving the nod to quality posts.
PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2003 1:57 am 
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Lifyre, Bealz: Great points, very well stated.

::makes note of this page for future reference when dealing with Tolkein-bashers::

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2003 10:19 am 
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Bealz wrote:
The story was written in a time of war in a country decimated and clinging to a hopeless hope. The grimness of the times is on eminent display and for some reason evokes a revulsion by its critics that in itself should be a testament to its artistic value blah blah blah.


it was written *after* WW1 (thought up during the war to some extent tho)which made it even more out of touch with the new 'everything might be ok' air that made the Roaring Twenties roar, well, untill the depression and the beginnings of WW2 anyway etc

he did fight in WW1, something most of his critics didn't, and there wasnt' much of a love story in that little conflict, however well it would do in a hour and a half tv movie, it was all about the fighting and th destruction and seeing your girlfriend every few months/years if you're lucky

anyway, i was hoping this thread had been brought back up for more elf sex chat...

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2003 10:30 am 
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uhm, "Debate Club", not "Masterbate Club"


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 10, 2003 5:48 am 
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Bealz wrote:
uhm, "Debate Club", not "Masterbate Club"


you've waited almost a year to say that, haven't you ??


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