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 Post subject: The Patriot Act vs. Nazi Regime
PostPosted: Sun Nov 02, 2003 5:57 pm 
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Hi. Sorry to post a new subject, but this topic began in #en, and I'm sticking it in here to silence Eronarn.

IRC DEBATE wrote:
[18:15] <Eronarn> US Patriot Act vs. Nazi Germany
[18:15] <Eronarn> comparisons.
[18:17] <ollie> the nazis had more internal segregational laws than the patrioat act did, which is more security and general rights oriented
[18:18] <ollie> the patriot act doesn't make peoepl to join government controlled paramilitary groups or create an air of individual national destiny in the nation above *all* others
[18:18] <ollie> etc etc
[18:19] <Eronarn> ollie.
[18:19] <Eronarn> this is a sophomore class.
[18:19] <Eronarn> i can make up bullshit and say it's fact.
[18:19] <Superkuh> But they both affirm the basic ideas of any collectivist society, that mans rights are not innate, and only granted as a gift from 'THE STATE'.
[18:20] <Superkuh> Which has the right to take them away for 'the common good'/'god'/etc.
[18:20] <ollie> also the patriot act is essetnially a tightening of current inwardly political law, not a creation of new and outwardly political ones
[18:20] <Superkuh> Tightening the noose.
[18:21] <ollie> any state lives by it's social contract, for better or worse
[18:21] <Risky> wait... you're compairing the Patriot Act with Nazi Germany? You better hope your teacher isn't a hard-core american red-neck
[18:21] <Eronarn> i don't give a shit.
[18:21] <Eronarn> she can't fail me for it.
[18:22] <Superkuh> It's even more fun if the teacher tries.
[18:22] <OmnipotentEntity> She could.
[18:22] <Risky> yeah but she might put a mob hit on you.
[18:22] <Eronarn> it's going to be a BIG, FULL COLOR poster
[18:22] <OmnipotentEntity> She just couldn't state that she failed you for it.
[18:22] <Eronarn> of Bush and Hitler in the same pose
[18:22] <Eronarn> a quote from the Patriot Act
[18:22] <ollie> also just about all validity of an argument goes out of the window when the word 'hitler' or 'nazi' enters it
[18:22] <Eronarn> and a quote from the Nazi constitution
[18:22] <Superkuh> So don't state that it's the nazi's your comparing to until the bottom.
[18:23] <ollie> also you could argue that the patriot act is a product of a declining world power, the nazis were a rising one
[18:24] <Eronarn> more to the fact that
[18:24] <Eronarn> we both started off as a democracy
[18:24] <Eronarn> and moved on to restricting rights
[18:24] <Eronarn> Art. 1. The German Federation is a republic. Supreme power emanates from the people.
[18:24] <Eronarn> Art. 13. Federal law overrides state law. . . .
[18:24] <Eronarn> Art. 41. The President of the Federation is elected by the whole German people. Every German who has completed his thirty-fifth year is eligible. . . .
[18:24] <TheBaron> Ero
[18:25] <Eronarn> yes, baron?
[18:25] <TheBaron> you realize the fact that federal law overriding state law is one of the fundamental tenets of the US Constitution as well?
[18:25] <ollie> germany was never really ademocracy untill teh 50s, they'd never had the chance to even get one started
[18:25] <TheBaron> what about Weimar?
[18:25] <OmnipotentEntity> umm.. Baron, this is similarities.
[18:25] <Eronarn> right.
[18:25] <Eronarn> that's what I'm doing now.
[18:25] <ollie> even teh republic was more on paper than in operation
[18:25] <Risky> aside from the fact that Hitler was a dictator and Bush is an idiot
[18:25] <Eronarn> the weimar constitution thingeh.
[18:26] <Eronarn> then compare the rise of the nazis to the patriot act.
[18:28] <ollie> it would be vaguly comparable if Bush had been put into power because he could be controlled (arguablly yes) but rapidly seized power for himself from his controlers (big no) as hitler did
[18:28] <ollie> and the patriot act was by his hand rather than his masters
[18:28] <ollie> the thing no one remembers is that America is a trading colony, money comes first, thats' the bottom line
[18:29] <ollie> just like Austrailia is a prison colony, and rehabilitation and containment are it's purposes
[18:29] <Ezelek> And we still beat you in cricket.
[18:29] <Eronarn> ollie.
[18:29] <Eronarn> all this is
[18:29] <Eronarn> is a poster
[18:30] <Eronarn> and 1 page double-spaced describing it
[18:30] <ollie> prison occupations - sport, farming, music and tv entertainment and whenever possable drinking
[18:30] <ollie> austraila does what else...?
[18:30] <Risky> well consider how both the nazi regime and the patriot act came about. the patriot act came up after an act of terrorism, while the nazi regime came into power after an economic depression in germany
[18:31] <ollie> yup, totally different things
[18:31] <OmnipotentEntity> Actually, there was a terrorist attack that Hitler seized upon to boost himself into power.
[18:31] <ollie> also Hitler was Autrian, his father was a postman, Bush is a texas oil boy son of a texas oil boy and former president
[18:32] <Eronarn> i'm not saying they're the same person.
[18:32] <Eronarn> i'm saying that we're starting down the same path
[18:33] <ollie> hitler was first employed as an anti-communist spy then envolved in low level political plays with the power brokers pushing him around untill years later he got one over on them
[18:33] <Risky> isn't America bigger than Germany? With more people? With more different viewpoints?
[18:33] <ollie> depends if your'e talking about germany or the Reich
[18:33] <Risky> well to say that we're starting down the same path is kind of frightening to me.
[18:34] <Eronarn> it's true.
[18:34] <ollie> no internal minority to oppress
[18:35] <ollie> little in teh way of national/racial unity to built upon
[18:35] <OmnipotentEntity> There's something for the Bush Hitler thing.
[18:35] <Superkuh> Because they're both fascist.
[18:36] <Superkuh> And do not respect the innate rights of individuals.
[18:36] <ollie> the leadership is by expericed cabal, not self motivated/driven individual
[18:36] <Eronarn> they had jews.
[18:36] <Eronarn> we have muslims.
[18:36] <ollie> the nazi party was entirly transparant, the bush regime is a multy layered pseudo-conspiracy of powerbrokers
[18:37] <Superkuh> Very different on the surface. Same goal.
[18:37] <Superkuh> Take power by pretending to be the voice of 'the people', which is an entity that doesn't really exist.
[18:38] <Superkuh> And invalidate individual rights by saying it is for the good of 'society'/'god'/'race'/etc
[18:38] <ollie> the german jews were a long stading part of th community with no real international links or even 'home' land or nation, the muslims have a number of counties and area relativly new addition to american society
[18:38] <Superkuh> We're not really arguing the same thing anymore. :P
[18:39] <Eronarn> ollie.
[18:39] <Eronarn> that doesn't matter.
[18:39] <Eronarn> they're still a minority that are blamed for stuff.
[18:39] <ollie> the nazi reigme was to further the regeneration of th german super state, the patriot acting bush regiem is there to maintain th status quo
[18:40] <Eronarn> ollie, it's to 'rebuild our national security'.
[18:40] <Eronarn> or so we're told.
[18:40] <Eronarn> hmm, this seems to be familiar...
[18:41] <Risky> ok hey lets' talk about something else.
[18:41] <Superkuh> The status quo being a slide towards fascism, ever since the 1800s with railroads being blamed for government control problems and the mixed economy that resulted, 1920s and the introduction of the Federal Reserve and the depression caused by the federal reserve abandoning the goal standard and floating credit and the new deal to 'fix it'. It's all in the same direction.
[18:41] <ollie> also nazi germany held internal state sponserd terrorist actsas ameans to stir up resentment of teh jews, the bush state prosicutes overseas wars as an end of it's policies, not a means
[18:41] <Risky> Ero, how bout you put that as a thread in the debate section? i think it would be interesting ;)
[18:41] <Eronarn> how about YOU do that?
[18:41] * TheBaron bops around in Risky's shirt in joy.
[18:41] <Eronarn> i'm too laaaaaaaazy.
[18:41] <Eronarn> LAAAAAAAAAAZY.
[18:41] <TheBaron> yet Ero misses it completely.
[18:41] <Eronarn> i'm not even supposed to be on.
[18:42] <ollie> a 200+ 'slide towards fascism'is somewhat different to a 20 year rise to power
[18:42] <Eronarn> Not going to do it right now.
[18:42] <ollie> (20 being the end of ww1 to th start of ww2)
[18:42] <Risky> fine i will.
[18:42] <Eronarn> and, ollie, it's not a '200+ slide towards facism'.
[18:42] <Eronarn> germany existed before the end of ww1.
[18:42] <OmnipotentEntity> He didn't take 20 years to rise to power.
[18:43] <Superkuh> Yes. It is more difficult to do in the US.
[18:43] <Superkuh> Germany started out socialist with Bismarc.
[18:43] <Superkuh> I agree that the Patriot Act is nothing giant. It is not something that hasn't been done.
[18:43] <ollie> so difficult that this one act seald the deal that no one's noticed for 2 centuries?
[18:43] <Superkuh> It's the same old shit.
[18:43] <Eronarn> right.
[18:43] <Eronarn> it's just that
[18:43] <Eronarn> what comes AFTER it
[18:43] <Eronarn> is what is important
[18:44] <Eronarn> if it CONTINUES down this path, we have trouble. think of it like the first signs of facism.
[18:44] <OmnipotentEntity> If you're making a debate thread over this we've already been down that path.
[18:44] <Eronarn> it's to 'protect our security'. before, it was to 'restore the economy'.
[18:45] <Architect> Pfff, irrational humans and your petty debates over how to most efficiently control yourselves.
[18:46] <RiskyIsMakingDebateThread> i'm looking up and making your damn patriot act vs. nazi regime thread


There, now discuss, and keep stuff that gives me a headache out of the chan, please :wink: (and I'm kidding, give me a headache all you want)

Oh, and if I made anyone mad by invading the debate thread, forgive me please, blame it on Eronarn instead, hehehe....

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 02, 2003 5:58 pm 
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therefore i am right

debate ends

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Nov 03, 2003 4:54 am 
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Quote:
[18:19] <Eronarn> i can make up bullshit and say it's fact.


And that's exactly what he proceeds to do.


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 Post subject: Re: The Patriot Act vs. Nazi Regime
PostPosted: Mon Nov 03, 2003 11:09 am 
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Young Asterisk wrote:
Hi. Sorry to post a new subject, but this topic began in #en, and I'm sticking it in here to silence Eronarn.

Oh, and if I made anyone mad by invading the debate thread, forgive me please, blame it on Eronarn instead, hehehe....


Bah, you are free to post whatever and wherever you want, if we deem a thread stupid and unworthy, we let it die.

Now, as for the debate, Nazi Germany was a total police state, reguardless of the war going on. The fact that we even have the CHANCE to discuss this means the patriot act is NOWHERE NEAR as bad as Nazi Germany. Sure there may be a few small parallels, but then again i'm sure you could do that with other acts passed in Congress.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Nov 05, 2003 8:45 am 
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Reading long copy-and-pasted dialogues = BAD! Remember, we are inherently lazy people here.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 05, 2003 11:33 am 
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Treespeaker wrote:
Reading long copy-and-pasted dialogues = BAD! Remember, we are inherently lazy people here.


no...i think YOU are the inherently lazy person here

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