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PostPosted: Fri Dec 19, 2003 6:56 pm 
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So what's your opinion? Are the brothers being good/evil? Or are they just acting in the majority's best interest?

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 07, 2004 3:49 am 
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Good and evil ARE subjective. Most peoples idea of good and evil is shaped by society.

Just start with this: You are a person, who thinks and feels and is alive. You are self aware. You don't want to die. Agreed? Accepted? Good.

That guy over there, WTF? He claims to be just as self aware and whatnot as you. So we have to take his word for it. And if he is equal to you on the fact he is alive and self aware, ergo you should let him live, based on the fact that you dont want to die and neither does he. You are equals. Placely your own importance above him, and therefore thinking its justified to sleep with his wife, steal his stuff or beat him up for fun (your increased for his increased pain) is selfish, and selfishness is wrong. That work for you?

All moral codes stem from this, basicly, live your life however you want as long as you dont fuck other people over. Evil can always be traced to selfishness, I think.

As regards the question, the world is not as simple as "KILL ALL TEH 3VIL PEOPLES AND TEH WERLD WOULD ROCK !!1!!!111ONE!". Not everyone who commits an evil and selfish action is a totally ireedimable human being worthy only of death. The black dragons, however, are by definition. In fantasy was RL there would of course be exceptions, but in fantasy, EVERY black dragon is evil and wants people to suffer. So killing them is OK, as it is a given they are going to hurt people at some point in there long lives.

Thing is, the above analysis is important. Point to me ONE evil person who knows and accepts they are evil. Noone in RL says, "Iam mean and stupid, so I want to take over the world, hohoho". Religion is particularly wrong in this aspect: Most christians Ive met (Warning! Warning! Sweeping generalisaton approaching) believe they have the moral high ground from the off, and are often stupid, bigoted and ignorant people, because they believe that Jesus is on their side, so they are RIGHT, dammit.

Its only by moral introspection that we become better people.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2004 4:48 pm 
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Cenwood wrote:
selfishness is wrong.


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Selfish (Self"ish) (?), a.

1. Caring supremely or unduly for one's self; regarding one's own comfort, advantage, etc., in disregard, or at the expense, of those of others. "They judge of things according to their own private appetites and selfish passions." Cudworth. "In that throng of selfish hearts untrue." Keble.
2. (Ethics) Believing or teaching that the chief motives of human action are derived from gratifying one's own pleasure. "Hobbes and the selfish school of philosophers." Fleming.
3. Meanly covetous or avarcious in dealing with others; stingy.

Synonyms -- Avarcious; covetous; parsimonious; sparing; miserly; penurios; sordid; stingy. See Avaricious.


According to logic, we can't prove anything, because we only perceive things to be true. Science holds a placement for support and bases of analysis, religion defines belief. But I think we can all agree that we are generally the only person to perceive our reality. Since the source of the perception is oneself, the source is the most important aspect. Without the source, there is no perception. Events all have an effect on the source, though their importance is what differenciates decisions and course of actions. Whether or not it's realized, everything done is for a desired effect on the source.

Now, the source being the most important in a person's perception. The source is their awareness, their emotion, etc. The source is placed highest in anyone's one by default. This is to say that humans are selfish by definition of their awareness. Their actions influence certain reactions from the environment (objects, other people) and all return to have an effect on the original person and their perception.

Of course, I may be taking words out of context... I have nasty habit of doing so. Though I think thoughtlessness, short-sidedness, ignorance, the like - that's what determines an evil person. Unless you want to say every human is evil for their trait of perception.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 19, 2004 4:28 am 
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Just to clarify, you are saying that because we are unique in our perception and world views, and can never REALLY see through someone elses eyes no matter how much we try to walk in their shoes, that we can never be selfless?

I suppose to a certain extent thats true. But I can work out your rough perception, and guesstimate what would make you pissed off or unhappy, and avoid doing that. I can also avoid deliberately attempting to hurt you by doing unto others as Id have done to me, and crap.

And you seemed to say that because our own perspective on the world is our primary input for any information based decision, then we cant possibly do good things. But people can be selfless, by putting the needs of others before needs of their own.

What Im saying is, putting your own pleasure up as the most important thing ever even if what makes you happy makes lots of other people miserable is wrong.

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