ZOMBIE FORUMS

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• Arcam thinks that whenever you are fighting dragons, the

more mages you have, the netter off you are.
( Arcam ) heya
• Cloud waves.
( Veryinky ) Since the attack is a surprise, to the

dragons, you get initiative, fireballs at the same spot should kill a third to half of them
( Arcam ) clouds from downunder
( Cloud ) Clouds from SCOTLAND MOFO.
• @ DeanoTeamBG listens to Tool Lateralus
• Cloud is in australia tho.
( Veryinky ) The hasted fighter goes nuts on one

them, while the cleric tries a hold spell. The dragons move into position, might do an acid

attack but your fighter is protected from acid. Seccond round, more fireballs, dragons moral

breaks and then it's simple cleanup.
( Arcam ) see
( Veryinky ) Though. Technicaly. Killing the dragons

is an evil act.
( Arcam ) are black dragons good?
( Veryinky ) No, they're evil
( Arcam ) then why is it an evil act
( Veryinky ) But they did'nt attack you. And if you

just stand there they leave.
( Arcam ) any time you rid the world of evil, it is a

good thing
( Veryinky ) The game tells you that you don't _have_

to attack.
( Arcam ) screw the game
( Veryinky ) Yeah. But I reloaded until I found a way

to kill them all. )
(@ DeanoTeamBG ) Arcam so randomly killing someone

because they are "evil" is good? I think not
(@ DeanoTeamBG ) P
• Arcam thinks of ethics. Killing evil dragons is always

good.
( Veryinky ) deano, detect evil in a city street,

kill everyone who shows up as evil.
( Veryinky ) swindling merchant, child thief, school

bully
( Veryinky ) )
( Arcam ) we are talking dragons here
( Arcam ) not people
( Veryinky ) True
( Veryinky ) Technicaly all chromatic (colour code)

dragons are evil
(@ DeanoTeamBG ) Dragons are living things too! *lol*
( Veryinky ) All metalic dragons are good
( Arcam ) stick to the subject deano
(@ DeanoTeamBG ) eh?
( Veryinky ) Still
( Arcam ) all metallica dragons are good? )
(@ DeanoTeamBG ) if Dragon's aren't the subject, what

is?
( Veryinky ) arcam, gold, silver, bronze...
(@ DeanoTeamBG ) Platinum
( NotMrT ) what about pink
( Veryinky ) There's a platinum dragon?
(@ DeanoTeamBG ) Brass
( Arcam ) name a pink metal and the answer is yes
(@ DeanoTeamBG ) i'm trying to remember if there are

any others
( Veryinky ) Heh
( Veryinky ) Iron dragon
( Veryinky ) Ooh
( Veryinky ) There are gem dragons
( Veryinky ) Emerald, jade, ruby, diamond, sapphire..
( Veryinky ) No serriously, that must be terrible.
( Veryinky ) "Hey, I'm MADE out of gems. Kill me now"
( Arcam ) Deano, I see it like this. Killing any evil

dragon as soon as you see it is like killing any drow as soon as you see them. Its just a good

idea and it helps the world be a better place to live )
(@ DeanoTeamBG ) hehe
N ick » ( Echon|Away ) is now known

as ( Echon )
( DownRt_Horred ) night all
( Echon ) Night.
( Arcam ) cya
( Veryinky ) nite
Q uit » ( DownRt_Horred ) (

~bill@Powered By TeamBG CAF DE .client.comcast.net ) ( Quit )
• @ DeanoTeamBG waves to Horred
(@ DeanoTeamBG ) *doh*
( Veryinky ) arcam, is right though.
( Echon ) That is just a load of crap.
( Arcam ) Hey, it is not crap
( Veryinky ) There are what, , drow in the

world? of them are non evil.
( Veryinky ) Well good drizzt, neutral souffen,

lesser evil viconica.
( Arcam ) who is the third one? Heck, who is the

second one?
( Cloud ) Soulafein.
( Echon ) Very That is just an assumption based on

nothing but a wild guess.
( Arcam ) In TOB, you can make Vicky good
( Arcam ) if you romanced her
( Veryinky ) True
(@ DeanoTeamBG ) Veryinky I'd also go as far as

saying there are , Jarlaxle isn't evil either P
( Cloud ) Good and evil are merely perspectives.
( Veryinky ) echon, true. But considering drow

society. The bad far outweigh the good.
( Arcam ) they sure prettied her up in bg . No one

would want to romance the hag she looked like in bg )
( Veryinky ) cloud, if it benifits others at the cost

of the self, it's good. If it costs others at the benifit of the self, it's evil.
( Arcam ) No cloud, you are WRONG. Good is good and

evil, well, its evil.
( Arcam ) )
( Veryinky ) arcam, well yeah.
( NotMrT ) thats not good that selfless
( Echon ) Good point Cloud. Good and evil is

subjective.
( Cloud ) No.
( Veryinky ) selfless is good
( Cloud ) Good and evil are merely points of views.
( NotMrT ) you can be selfish and good
(@ DeanoTeamBG ) how can Cloud be wrong?
( Ajoc ) fish fish
( NotMrT ) haha
( Veryinky ) notmrt, that's neutral.
(@ DeanoTeamBG ) i'd say he's not far from the truth
( NotMrT ) im talking reality here
(@ DeanoTeamBG ) in fact, right bang on
(@ DeanoTeamBG ) P
( Cloud ) It all depends on what your point of view

is
( NotMrT ) if you rip a rabbits head of for fun
( NotMrT ) thats evil
( NotMrT ) if you save a pram froma car thats good
( Arcam ) So you are saying there is not set

definition of evil?
( NotMrT )
( Arcam ) or of good
( Echon ) No.
( NotMrT ) slitting peoples throats as you felt like

it is definantly evil
(@ DeanoTeamBG ) Arcam no, you just go with what

people have taught you is good and evil
( Arcam ) wow, your world must be really sad
(@ DeanoTeamBG ) P
( Cloud ) Yeah, Im pretty much saying theres no real

definition for good.
( Cloud ) Or for evil.
( Echon ) Our opinions are all based on the

established ethics of our society.
( Veryinky ) To me good is selflessness. Evil is

selfishness.
( NotMrT ) my definition is hurting people for no

good reason is evil
( Ajoc ) fish fish
( NotMrT ) hahaha
(@ DeanoTeamBG ) Echon i kind of said that, you put

it far far better
( Cloud ) I also like that.
( Echon ) Hehe.
• @ DeanoTeamBG goes to stab Ajoc in the eye
( NotMrT ) my opinions are based on what would make

me feel bad
( NotMrT ) lol
( NotMrT ) if someone stole my money id feel bad
( Veryinky ) OK
( NotMrT ) thus its a bad thing to steal
( Arcam ) So what you are telling me is that there is

some way that hitler killing the jews could be good?
( Koning_Floris ) hehe
( Veryinky ) So how would what the drow do be

considered "good"
( NotMrT ) no
( Veryinky ) Even the drow hate the drow.
( NotMrT ) ask yourself would you like this to hapen

to yourself
( Echon ) Very The drow do not think of themselves

as evil.
( Veryinky ) notmrt, that does'nt work for

masochists.
( Echon ) That is the point.
( NotMrT ) that covers a large part of it
( Cloud ) Arcam Again, that point of view is

subjective
(@ DeanoTeamBG ) Arcam no, there may be some people

who could view it as "good"... doesn't in any way mean it is
( Cloud ) Nowadays, Its viewed as evil
( NotMrT ) masochisim is a mental illness so it dosnt

count
( Cloud ) But back in germany
(@ DeanoTeamBG ) it's all about your view on the

subject matter
( Veryinky ) echon, no, they don't consider

themselves as evil. But they none the less don't like being tortured.
( Cloud ) It was viewed as good.
( NotMrT ) not meaning bdsm
( NotMrT ) i mean proper masochisim
( Echon ) Very What has that got to do with it?
• Arcam believes that there are "gray" areas where

societies differ on what is good or bad but that there are some things every society deems to

be good and others that every society deems to be evil.
( Veryinky ) echon, from a subjective view, all drow

society is evil. From their point of view it's "how things are done"
( NotMrT ) killing an inocent person is always evil
( Echon ) What has it got to do with torture?
( Koning_Floris ) but terrorist dont see themself as

evil
( Arcam ) that is a self image
( Arcam ) the evil never see themselves as evil
(@ DeanoTeamBG ) Good Vs Evil... who wins? *lol*
( NotMrT ) no but they arnt evil they are wrong what

they do is evil and sometiems they do it for a good reason
( Arcam ) even though they are
( Echon ) Arcam That is the point.
( NotMrT ) but they do the wrong thing
( Koning_Floris ) but their m dont see them as evil

too
( Echon ) And no, that is just your opinion.
( NotMrT ) not a matter if you think your evil
( Koning_Floris ) they kill inferior beings, in their

eyes its good
( NotMrT ) tthats evil
( Cloud ) "Evil only exists so men can do good and

fight it."
( NotMrT ) its killing for no good reason
( Arcam ) My point is that there is a definate evil

and a definate good. Your point is that some evil bastard may think what he is doing is good,

when in fact it is not.
( Koning_Floris ) thats not what they think
( Cloud ) Arcam Tell that to the germans during
( Echon ) Arcam You are being subjective again.
( Arcam ) We are talking about two different things
( Cloud ) There is *NO* definite good and evil
( Arcam ) I disagree
( Echon ) You cannot say it is a fact, Arcam.
( Cloud ) Its not a fact.
( Cloud ) Its FAR from a fact.
( Cloud ) Its subjective
( Echon ) Arcam You are turning your opinion into a

fact.
( Veryinky ) Hrm
( NotMrT ) the germans didnt know about the murders

mostly
( Cloud ) Mostly they didnt
( Veryinky ) Adamantite, is that the drow turns to

dust in sunlight metal?
( Cloud ) But they supported the TORTURE
( Arcam ) No, I do not believe it is. If there is no

definate line, then how do you tell? It makes no sense.
( Cloud ) inky Yes
( Echon ) Very No.
( NotMrT ) they were histerical
( Cloud ) Echon It is.
( NotMrT ) this is what opersion does
( Veryinky ) Oh
( NotMrT ) they were lead by an evil man
( Echon ) Cloud No, it is an alloy containing

adamantite.
( NotMrT ) they knew nothing else
( Arcam ) in your way of thinking, there may be some

case where a child molester is ok. In my book there is no way
( Cloud ) Echon Is it?
( Echon ) Pure adamantite is not ruined by sunlight.
( NotMrT ) its a mental illness
( Arcam ) there are definate wrongs
( Cloud ) Arcam You think the child molestor thinks

its wrong?
( Arcam ) there are things that are evil no matter

how you look at it
( Cloud ) Good and evil are merely POINTS OF VIEW.
( Cloud ) No more no less.
Q uit » ( Arcam ) ( Arcam@Powered By

TeamBG E A.flint .mi.comcast.net ) ( Quit He who fights monsters should look to

it that he himself does not become a monster...When you gaze long into the abyss, the abyss

also gazes into you! )



-----------------

Okay, First, Id like to apologise for the shitty Way this has come out, theres a lot of code in the logs, and I had to find-> replace on most of it.

So whats your points of view on good and evil?

As you'll have read above, if you could be bothered, I find good and evil to be merely subjective terms. Based on your point of view.

(And merely so I dont get any shit from people later, I agreed with him on the point of child molestation. Its my point of view that its wrong. But again, this is merely my point of view, doesnt mean that the same point of view is applicable to the child molestor.)

Discuss.

---

Edited from the MT forums where I posted earlier.

The person who disagreed with me earlier came back, and Pm'd me.


-
-23:50:41- (Arcam) sigh all you want. I will never see it your way and you won't see it mine, so why bother?
-23:50:55- (Cloud) Because it was a debate.
-23:51:15- (Cloud) A chance for me to expand my intellect. A chance for you to try and persuade me to your way of thinking.
-23:51:20- (Arcam) no, it was a disagrement, there is a difference
-23:51:29- (Cloud) No, it was not a disagreement
-23:51:35- (Cloud) A disagreement involves name calling
-23:51:40- (Arcam) no
-23:51:58- (Arcam) it only involves not agreeing with someone
-23:52:36- (Cloud) A debate is an exchange of views with people who disagree on a point.
-23:52:54- (Arcam) No, I was on the debate team in school.
-23:52:59- (Arcam) that is not what it is
-23:53:08- (Cloud) well to be honest mate
-23:53:23- (Cloud) If you leave debates because you cant handle a fair point that someone is making
-23:53:33- (Cloud) You must have really sucked on the debate team in high school
-23:53:51- (Arcam) I left because it was futile and what was happening was not a debate.
-23:53:59- (Arcam) A debate is an orderly thing
-23:54:07- (Arcam) done according to rules
-23:54:11- (Arcam) with a judge
-23:54:24- (Cloud) In irc, there are no set rules, and the only judges are the ops
-23:54:53- (Arcam) you must be young
-23:55:27- (Cloud) Im 18
-23:55:40- (Arcam) yeah, I thought so
-23:55:46- (Arcam) way to young
-23:55:46- (Cloud) And the fact is Im now able to outdebate someone who claims to be good at debates
-23:55:55- (Cloud) I find the fact you left quite offensive by the way
-23:56:25- (Arcam) I found your point of view offensive, I guess that makes us even, doesn't it.
-23:57:32- (Cloud) Hardly
-23:57:35- (Cloud) The fact is
-23:57:39- (Cloud) Good and evil are subjective
-23:57:46- (Cloud) They are only points of view
-23:58:12- (Cloud) The point you made regarding the child molestation, yes, I agree with you, I find it to be quite evil, and definitely wrong.
-23:58:18- (Cloud) Again, this is my point of view
-23:58:26- (Cloud) Do you think the child molestor views it as wrong?
-23:59:20- (Arcam) Lets see, what did I say about that conversation? I believe it was something like "I won't continue it" What part of that did you fail to understand?
-23:59:52- (Cloud) I saw no part of said statement. Why are you so afraid of continuing this?
-00:00:31- (Arcam) it has nothing to do with fear and if you continue to bother me with it, I will simply put you on ignore
-00:00:57- (Cloud) Talk about an over reaction. Im merely asking why.
-00:01:26- (Arcam) I merely told you I was not interested in continuing. You are pushing it. I will ignore you
-00:02:01- (Cloud) Fine, feel free to ignore me
-00:02:11- (Cloud) But know that youre being extremely immature about it
-00:02:41- (Arcam) No. I stated a valid reason to discontinue. You are trying to push me into it. That is immature
-00:02:51- (Cloud) You gave me no reason for discontinuing
-00:02:54- (Cloud) You just left.
-00:06:24- (Cloud) Im on ignore now?
-

He also called me gay later in chat, does anyone else ever wonder why people start these so called "debates" and then pull cheap stunts like this? It pisses me off.

...you gotta be kidding me.

No way in fuckery I'm reading all that.

Ignore Treespeaker.

Cloud, disable HTML in that post, and it will become readable.

Now, Treespeaker, sometimes a bit of reading does have to be done in order to catch the full grasp of a debate. If you aren't willing to work a little, then don't post in threads like these at all.

Nah, I think he's right, Kry. tl;dr.


Sarcasm aside, if you pare that down a bit I'll be happy to argue it with you.

Post all the links to articles, rants, what have you you like, and I'll do my best to keep up on 'em. But long, HTML-filled ICQ conversations just don't strike me as a great springboard for debate. For all I know, it was a great conversation; I still think it's a little ridiculous to expect other people to not only read exerpts from your private dialogues, but wade through code to get to it.

If you really feel the need to use ICQ excerpts as the start of a debate, I guess it's better than nothing...but please, at least cut down on the code. It's obnoxious.

Its IRC, I know its obnoxious, I got as much of it as I could out.

I read through it (>.<;;), there isn't much content:

Cloud: Good and Evil are subjective
Whathisname: No they aren't.
repeat.

He's right it wasn't much of a debate.

Well what the hell, here's what I have to say about it.

You look at morals - it's not something static or tangible, we've already established that.

Morals as I see them are based on compassion and selfishness.
Back to the murderer - you see him trying to murder someone. You can see from the victim's expression that s/he isn't enjoying life at the moment. You probably know from experience that injuries hurt like hell. You probably also know, possibly from experiences with pets, that death is tragic.

Then from the murderer's point of view, you look at why he thinks he's doing the right thing. Let's say the victim stole about a thousand dollars from the guy. There's all sorts of convoluted reasons why that could justify the murder in the murderer's mind.

That's the compassionate side to it all.

Then you look at selfishness - both of them - the murderer and the victim - are directly experiencing the situation. It's like watching someone get hit in the balls - it's hilarious untill it happens to you because it's in your face and you can feel it.

So nobody is really right, morals are local.

Also, although certain morals are bred into us, they're also shaped by society I think. A good example of this is a kid I knew in highschool.
He was always running his mouth, getting himself in trouble, but nobody could do much about it because he was always telling on people.

Why? Because all his life, he'd probably been told that was the right thing to do. His parents probably explained it to him in a way that made sense to a little kid, so he thought it was right before he actually experienced it.

Me? I think that's an incredibly faggy way to act, because that's how *I* was raised.

I guess it all is pretty hard to pin down.

Ok, I remember where I was going with this.

Are good and evil subjective? If I interpret "subjective" right, yes.
Good and evil are moral assessments of actions, and morals are subjective by nature.

If you ever have a doubt as to whether Good and Evil are subjective, I have a scenario for you.

Bob is a little bit psychotic. Lucid enough to know the difference between right and wrong (and can be held accountable for his actions).

Roy is a lot bit psychotic, and has somehow managed to accumulate the supplies needed to make one nasty 'dirty bomb' (regular explosive; radioactive fill), and has constructed it. He's about to go downtown and set if off in Grand Central Station, suicide style. He even has a 'dead-mans switch' so even if the cops shoot and kill him, it will go off. Being the media-hog that he is, Roy will ensure the cops do get there in time to try to stop him.

However, before he can do this, Bob has a psychotic pique and decides to kill the next person he see. Roy is getting out of his car at this time with a rather large backpack on. Bob goes over and kills Roy. Roy hasn't turned on the bomb yet, because he hasn't had the chance.


The cops arrest Bob, do a little investigation, find out what Roy had planned (by looking in his backpack, no less), and decided Bob must have had fore-knowledge and he is celebrated as a hero.

-----------

Bob is Evil. He killed for no reason. Everyone else views Bob as Good, because he stopped a madman from killing thousands of people.

I have a few questions for you to answer. IF you can answer them without all sorts of loop holes then you MIGHT have an arguement for absolute good and evil.

Who defines good and evil? Is it humans, in which case it would generally be considereed to be a bunch of dead people? Is it god? And if it is god who is to say that we interpreted his rules right? Who says that we (humans) didn't change the rules because they were inconvienient? If there are absolute good an evil how are they defined? Does scale and intention factor in? What if someone has to kill a dozen people to save a billion?

On a side note my religious beliefs contain NO moral guidelines. I base those on how I would like people to treat me. I think that helping people out is the right thing to do because it often comes back in spades. I don't believe in a heaven and hell persay but I do believe in an afterlife.

Your logic is smacktarded. Bob will not be celebrated, he will be locked away in an asylum, it will most likely be viewed for what it is.. the best fluke EVA. And it would be obvoius at the most preliminary investigation that bob had no foreknowledge.

Definitions for you, just as a base of establishment. We all have to agree what the words mean if we are to debate them.







Debate Topic:


There you go.

(finally edited after a while ;p)

Its been more than "a few," ya lazy bum.

-MiB

Really, case in point. Pipe weilding insano preying on young girls in Detroit is killed by unknown assialants, general public consensus is they are heores, even though they broke the law, but they took one life that was adversly affecting others, while no the police still have to try and catch the "heroes" that does not make them less heroic in the eyes of the public. For the ppl in this scenario Bob WOULD be celebrated as a hero even if he was locked away.

Sho, the question is- IS what the person did good or evil? If we define good/evil as public perception, then its already subjective, so you're doing a circular logic thing there.

Not to mention, the public as a whole wouldn't know until much later that the person did it randomly, and has a mental disorder. Anybody can see that they would say "Well I won't miss that murderer, but this guy needs to be put away, for his own safety as well as our's."

Now, we're assuming intentions mean something here, so I think this fictional guy's actions are clearly evil- he did not KNOW he was doing good in advance. For example, I am angry at the world, I hate humanity, I pick out a random guy on the street and shoot him in the head. Its Osama Bin Laden. Yip yip yip yip yip yip yahoo etc, but the point is, it could have been anyone else. It was just a lucky break for society that I didn't pick out some random innocent.

So, whats the conclusion I draw? That, since good acts cannot really be considered 'good' in objective terms so much as a lucky break without there being a positive motive behind it, the killing was an evil act.

IE, if you do all the good in the world with bad intentions, even if people THINK you had good intentions, in the end you're still evil. Just really incompetant and unlucky evil.

-MiB

If good and evil are defined by intent then will still run into a problem. If I think they world would be better off without "stupid" ppl, I of course get to decide you is in fact "stupid". My my intent is to make the world a better place by killing the stupid. I want betterment for the world. Now it's clear to anybody with a brain that I'm crazy and should be locked up but my intent at least to me is "good". So even If i deem what I do good not everyone is going to see it that way, making good and evil abstract concepts.

You're confusing motivation and intention, which I distinguish between for that reason.

Your motivation was to make the world a better place, all well and good.

Your intention, however, was to kill people based off of a wobbily criticia.

For someone to be a good person in any one circumstance, both of these have to be positive. Fair enough?

-MiB

Seems pretty fair, ill go with that.

Sorry to post, but suddenly I just got a big overwhelming sensation to tell you to see "The Boondock Saints." Very good movie, deals with exactly this debate.

I saw that movie, it rocked, weird but inspired performance by Willam Dafoe.