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 Post subject: Oppressive Government vs. Anarchy
PostPosted: Fri Nov 07, 2003 8:52 am 
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The question is implied in the title--I wanna know what you all think. Obviously, this is a completely theoretical topic, although if you want to use real-world examples, articles, etc. to support your point the more power to you. It's a pretty bad set of choices, so try to find the lesser of two evils. Just keep in mind a couple of things:

1) If you're going to make assertations about the human mindset, you'd better have good reason for it--don't just say "well, humans are inherently violent, so anarchy would lead to violence" or something like that.

2) Oppressive does not nessecarily equal abusive (you can argue that it will, but argue it). Similarly, anarchy need not mean state of nature. You can try to define it however you like, just keep in mind that the topic does not autmaticallu imply the choice between a capricious and violent police-state and a violent, random state of chaos.

Go wild.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 07, 2003 8:37 pm 
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There's a deep flaw in your assumption that either an overly oppressive government or a complete anarchy will long survive. Discontent, need for organization, and, most of all, competition with other countries will usually result in the destruction of said systems (to wit: most revolutions [the French and Indian come to mind], the original creation of stable governments, and the USSR vs. United States ting that was going on in the second half of the twentieth century.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 08, 2003 2:46 pm 
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As in all things, you have to strike a balance betweem the two extremes.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 09, 2003 12:00 am 
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I'm going to have to go with anarchy, assuming it's actually possible, I am an individualist to the bone and confident in my ability to compete, I hate government in direct proportion to its wish to govern ME. Remove that and you make it very happy, an oppressive government by definition can have no respect for its people, or it would allow them to govern themselves. If it doesn't respect them then it can't treat them as human beings.

There is no dignity in having your decisions made for you, noone with any pride could be content with it. I'd rather live in a state of semi-chaos for the rest of my life than spending my life kissing a bureacrat's ass.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 09, 2003 7:55 pm 
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Dude, Icy-from-one-year-ago would soooo 0\/\//\/z0r j00 all in this debate (or just spout mindless ideological garbage... either way). (cf. this thread, this thread, and this thread)


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2003 1:46 am 
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Anarchy sucks because it leads to wideswept crime and all that good shit.
Oppressive government sucks because of a lack of freedom.

That said, why doesn't feudalism work?


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2003 2:07 pm 
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Feudalism sucks because of lack of freedom. (For the surfs at least)

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2003 3:39 pm 
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I feel that the idiocy of the average person, and perhaps more importantly, the idiocy of humans in groups, demands government and structure. Most humans (as a generalization) are too stupid to know what's best for them as a community, and often, even as individuals. The aim of a government should not be to oppress, but to perserve order and acceptable living conditions. Of course, the introduction of laws, etc. implies some form of "oppression" of free will. However, you must consider that these oppressions are really only suggestions. No government will ever be able to remove the power of choice without the use of mind control technology not yet developed, and/or some sort of medical procedure to hinder decisoin making or processing. Therefore, any system without such extreme measures is a loose form of anarchy. The combination of strong leadership and the virutally undeniable freedom to choose are an ideal combination for human society.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2003 7:09 pm 
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I am all for oppressive governments as long as they institute the Battle Royale Act.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 27, 2003 12:38 pm 
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If this were a debate on government in general, I would have more to say. But as this is binary, I will say this. Anarchy over Oppressive Government. Anarchy is impossable as a form of long term government. We as human can not deal with it. We would eventually come up with some form of loose government. An opressive government locks you into your fate. Anarchy at least gives you a chance of a good government. Tribe leader, hunters.. and all that.,

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2003 11:08 pm 
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I remember that while I was traveling through Germany I met a russian girl with whom I had many conversations about utopias, and in particular the one her co-nationals such as Lenin tried to establish. Her reply to my question "will there ever be communism on the face of the Earth?" was simple, but rang true: "Marx and other serious theorists spoke of Man but not of the one of their times, nor this "man" they pictured is seen today... perhaps mankind needs to evolve, not just in a biological sense, for any utopia to work... our current nature, in all ways, is not just yet ready for it". For the meanwhile, lets keep on proceeding with a cultural and spiritual (not just biologial) evolution that'll lead us to a posible bliss on earth.
About Anarchism: I read many times the works of the first true original anarchist, Mikhail Bakunin, and I still think his theories are by far the most utopian of all- it requires Man to be both physically, spiritually and intelectually capable of only doing good on himself and others so he can attain a pefect domination over hs destiny. More than communism, perhaps I'd like better anarchism.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2003 11:47 pm 
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Subaru wrote:
About Anarchism: I read many times the works of the first true original anarchist, Mikhail Bakunin,


[pedant]Usually, Pierre-Joseph Proudhon is considered the first true anarchist, i.e. someone who actively used the term "anarchism" to describe his philosophy. Bakunin kind of took Proudhon and put his ideas in a more industrial, semi-Marxist contest.[/pedant]


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2003 5:45 am 
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Checksum wrote:
Anarchy sucks because it leads to wideswept crime and all that good shit.


Which is why gun control is a good idea.
Anarchy means that anyone can commit a crime, however it also means that anyone can avenge a slight commited against them as well as kill anyone trying to commit a crime in progress. Which means you can kill my wife and I can burn your children in their sleep.

Burning is cool.

Actor.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2003 12:48 am 
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Zarathustra-san: from what I read so far, Proudhon is not considered an anarchist, more like the man who expressed many ideas on which anarchism later built itself on. May it be perhaps that most of my philosophical texts are with a marked tendency towards "communism" (you must know of the hatred marxists have for anarchists as theorists)?? Thanks for the observation anyway. I'll consider looking into it further.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2003 5:43 am 
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for my views on this you will note my custom title

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2003 7:08 am 
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Anarchy is a concept that will never exist. Even if there were to be a complete breakdown of society, new power structures would arise within days if not hours. These would be gang- or tribal-style "I'm strongest, do what I say;" they would not be pretty nor fair, but they would exist.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2003 7:22 am 
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"Anarchy is your 6th grade gym class forever." (paraphrased because I can't be bothered to look it up)

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2003 7:52 am 
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OmnipotentEntity wrote:
"Anarchy is your 6th grade gym class forever." (paraphrased because I can't be bothered to look it up)
Yeah that is about it. Fascist collectives form, violence is law, the strong survive and enjoy life. That wasn't very much fun.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2003 2:43 pm 
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"Anarchy is your 6th grade gym class forever." (paraphrased because I can't be bothered to look it up).
Too brilliantly said. I have nothing to add but to nod my agreement.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2003 3:26 pm 
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how 2-dimensional

what you're describing is a meritocracy, the poor example claims it to be one based on physical prowess and animal cunning alone, while that may have been true thousands of years ago, I think you'll find things have moved on a little since then, get over being such a wuss in school and use adult examples to describe adult situations

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