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 Post subject: Treatment of new groups in societies
PostPosted: Thu Nov 20, 2003 8:51 pm 
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To begin, let me say I am highly biased. Initation ceremonies of a demeaning/sexually abusive nature are not very funny to anyone who has encountered victims of them in reality. Judging from the extremely violent reactions of Astrocitizen and YA, they are hardly harmless fun on the net too.

Many voice the question of "Why do newbies leave, why do old members fail to return?"

Well, if the first reaction to any new person, regardless of their personality or how they post, is to launch an attack against them (And I would consider saying you are branding someone to be an attack, what with the implications of slavery and general degredation) - then such is not too suprising an outcome.

The question thus posed is: What are you feelings on the above, and the treatment of new individuals to a group? What are your positions on the ideal of the melting pot vs. multiculturalism? On the idea of stigmitizing new members of a group/society? Is it a defense mechanism or is it the member's carrying out their previous humiliation on a new group?

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 20, 2003 9:32 pm 
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I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT IS GOING ON.

Rephrase the whole damn thing so me in my sleep-induced stupor can understand it. In other words, provide links and larger descriptions of what you are describing.

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 Post subject: If you care enough, follow the links and read up.
PostPosted: Thu Nov 20, 2003 9:33 pm 
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Hmmm... where to begin. :-?

This is a topic which has come up in one form or another numerous times before, and on which my opinions are probably pretty well known... instead of rehashing what's been said, I think I will just link to past words and let them speak for themselves.

A quite distant discussion of initiations, spurred by a n00b reviving a week-and-a-half-old thread.

Another thread-resurrecting n00b who elicited a discussion of "why do we do initiations."

A not-quite-n00b (5-month member with low postcount) who was quickly jumped on for posting off-topic within the Errant Story forum, though others later rose to his defense.

A n00b who posted with idle enthusiasm and was (presumably) quickly scared off, though he may have been a fly-by-night poster anyway with little or no intent to stay.

The most recent discussion, regarding the treatment of LadyCosmo.

To summarize...
    I think initiations are best reserved for newcomers who seem bent on chaos or asshattery. The idea of "initiation as glorious tradition" is not very appealing to me, online or in real life. (Admittedly, I have myself performed a single initiation, but given the initiate's reaction to it I consider it to have been a positive experience for all concerned.)

    That being said, I think that text is a very different thing from actual physical violation of a person, and frankly any community built out of people who appreciate Poe's work is going to enjoy and engage in off-color humor.

    I can completely understand those who cannot stomach such and wish to have no part in it, but I would ask them to find other, more like-minded souls rather than coming and complaining to us, as most will only answer their complaints with more such humor in an attempt to drive them off and be left in peace.
So yeah... my two cents.


EDITS 1 & 2: Aerk, I just realized, you're old. Why the sudden interest? Did you manage to miss these discussions the first time around? Or are you returning to us after a lengthy hiatus?

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Last edited by Yevaud333 on Fri Nov 21, 2003 12:06 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Nov 20, 2003 11:10 pm 
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YA was initiated? Link to that, we almost never initiate females here!

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 21, 2003 12:50 am 
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Quite a nice reply, it answered a lot of my questioning.

I have to agree with most of your summary, but one thing stuck in my mind: Exactly how raunchy -are- EN and ES? They are above the average of most webcomics, but they are hardly the lesbian-orgy Jordon on Jordan's Clone incest bukkake buttsex that its fans (only half-jokingly) plead for.

ps: I am a very old lurker, who reads the posts now and then for enjoyment and on a whim decided to become active on the forum

pps: more lesbian orgy Jordan on Meji buttsex orgy plz.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 21, 2003 2:16 pm 
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Clay_Allison wrote:
YA was initiated? Link to that, we almost never initiate females here!


that's kinda like saying that the PLO almost never initiate Jews when they join...

nah, there are a few human females here, and some Texan ones

although it's a mortal sin around here to talk about never being initiated, I wasn't as I got in under the <I>impressive first posts clause</I> i.e. I blew off a few pages on military, law and guns stuff that seemed to impress I seem to remember, you'd never know it to look at me eh?

initiations are to give the community member a sense of belonging, a hurdle to overcome that everyone else has also done (in longerstanding communities at least, few older posters have been initiated as they were her from the start) and to give the place an air of exclusivity, note how many carry notes of who initiated them in their sigs as a badge of pride and belonging, a common focal point and base of the group mentality etc

hence the few little fanclubs and associations thathave been springing up over the last few months, a clear symptom of the increase in posters, the 'kyhm Forums' have became too large to be seen as one group now, so it's self-splitting into internal factions as any large group does.

depending on the dedication of time and effort to the group these things will all mean more to the individual, hence the bad reaction 'n00bs' have when being jumped on and initiated, they don't want to be a part of the group *that* badly, so shy away from it even more rather 'passing' the test and getting into it

what? how did you guess I've got a sociology degree...

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 21, 2003 2:23 pm 
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Ollie...much <3

Anyway, to add to that, I doubt anyone wants a sensitive ass in this forum, someone who gets all up and offended by threatening TEXT, this forum isn't exactly candyland and all. If you're offended by that to the point where you no longer want to post here you'd probably not get along anyhow.

-MiB

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 21, 2003 4:08 pm 
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I was never initiated, heh.

What happened is that I slapped a "Property of Young Asterisk" sticker on Astrocitizen and many people in the ES forums reacted violently to that. Heck, I didn't initiate him, or apply a DNI, and I explained all that. What I can say is that I won't EVER do that again, for better or for worse.

I do believe Aerk must have caught the threads, and my train of thought, in an odd light.


My "violent reaction to Astrocitizen" was in fact not so violent. I am non-violent here. What's the point? I told him to "fuck off", and in fact he's the first person on these boards I have EVER been rude to, but he in fact was "rude" to me first.

In fact it's a nonissue to me.

I'm female, and I'm prone to mood swings. So there =P

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Nov 21, 2003 10:28 pm 
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The only Texan on these boards that has been initiated is Krylex, by me. GOM got off easy and I DNI'd Backflash_Tuna.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2003 10:34 am 
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Everyone held together by that bond which cannot be broken:

Buttsex.


Still, it is strange that the issue has kept popping up time after time. Anyone have a clue as to why?

K: Now asides to peoples

Ollie: All of your points make sense, and I can see initiation being a tool for community bonding (The Spartans did the same thing, with buttsex even!) - do you think there is a reaction among n00bs because they think they are being unfairly singled out with initiation? Do different aspects of the forum have different means of initiation, or simply not initiate at all?

YA: Well - you did brand him, then threaten him, even if it was half-jokingly. He then did the same thing to you (threatening to break your neck, practically - just because it is TEXT doesn't mean 10,000 years of evolution have gone away, you can still become angry at something you read), which provoked another response. A strong response, which overcame your normally Gentle and Delicate Feminine Manner. (hides)

That is why I mentioned it :)

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2003 12:48 pm 
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well put it like this, you go on holiday to Sparta and a bunch a men come over and ass-rape you, you'll probably be somewhat put out

now, if you're wanting to become a part of their society and you fully accept that this is an element of their communal and social bonding process, then you'll love it (or at least know what to expect) and once it's over you'll be looking forward to the time you're thought of as senior enough to set up an ass-rape initiation on a newcomer

if, however, you were just wandering in or passing through and get thus jumped, you might not really have any idea of what's going on, while the buttsex is meant in the nicest possible way, even as a gift of acceptance, you might not really be wanting it, thus you react badly and storm off, leaving the rapers wondering why their fresh rapee is so annoyed at their actions

like any society there are unwritten rules of conduct and convention, when someone new arrives they will have little idea of these, the main problems come up when they actually ignore the *written* ones (noob threads, posting rules threads etc) and the initiation becomes more of a lesson in instruction than a welcome to the fold, still, if they get through it with good humour then they will usually still be allowed in, knowing to watch their step in future etc

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2003 2:54 pm 
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Aerk wrote:

YA: Well - you did brand him, then threaten him, even if it was half-jokingly. He then did the same thing to you (threatening to break your neck, practically - just because it is TEXT doesn't mean 10,000 years of evolution have gone away, you can still become angry at something you read), which provoked another response. A strong response, which overcame your normally Gentle and Delicate Feminine Manner. (hides)

That is why I mentioned it :)


..... What gentle and delicate Feminine Manner? o.O

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2003 4:21 pm 
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The way I see initiations: A colorful and good natured way to weed out the oversensitive, whiney, annoying n00bs from the ones who have enough of a sense of humor to truly enjoy these boards. *plops 2 cents into the jar*

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2003 4:41 pm 
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My two cents: There are those who initiate in anger and do it purely to hurt. When the n00b is deserving, that's okay. When the offense is a minor one, it's not worth it.

There are also those to whom initiating is something fun, something they consider inviting. It doesn't matter how the n00b takes it, in such a case an initiation is fine. If the n00b cannot handle it, then it's best they leave. The quality of what gets posted on these boards rules out those with a thin skin as active, reading members.

If the initiation has a point I can agree with, I won't stop them. But when it's just initiating because there's a flood of n00bs and we want to posture . . . nah. Count me out from now on.

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