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PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2003 10:50 am 
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How about cybernetic ninjas with stealth cloaking and personal force fields? Give everyone one of thems instead. How do we afford it? We divert all the money going to medicare, and use our senior citzens as parts to make the aforementioned cybernetic ninjas. Two problems solved at once.

Note: All debates about gun control are futile and stupid. Jasper already said everything that can be said.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2003 10:55 am 
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The Man In Black wrote:
How about "give everyone a loaded gun"?

That solves the problem of violent crime pretty quick, when everyone can shoot back no more massaquers of unarmed civilians, because there are no more unarmed civilians.

As a side not, everyone will be a lot more polite to each other when you know if you push John Doe too far he'll pull out his piece and shoot you in the face.

-MiB


actually, my History teacher pulled this one out in class,

But I counter that with then everyone lives in fear the people near them, plus how early do you give a person a gun? 15? 10? How long before someone needs to defend themselves? How do you prevent some teenager either with a gun or with his father's gun he stole from following his angst and shooting several students before a teacher had the time (and GUTS) to blow away said student.

plus we all become weak, because mearly shooting a gun takes little to no strength (excluding those with nasty kick-back) and many would become lazy with the idea of excersize

And ANOTHER thing about guns in general. A gun is a VERY easy tool to commit suicide with. I can honestly say that teenage depression/angst (depressangst?) drove me to thinking about suicide a little, and I thought several times, "if there was a gun here, quick and painless, i'd do it..."

I'm not saying I TRULY would have, I can only know if i'd have gone through with it if I had the gun to my temple, but the fact is with a gun in the home suicide is MUCH easier to accomplish. A "everyone has a gun" idea would most likely accelerate the suicide-attempt rate (and probably the success rate even more)

EDIT: Aerk posted probably when I hit the reply button...
Aerk wrote:
How about cybernetic ninjas with stealth cloaking and personal force fields? Give everyone one of thems instead. How do we afford it? We divert all the money going to medicare, and use our senior citzens as parts to make the aforementioned cybernetic ninjas. Two problems solved at once.

Note: All debates about gun control are futile and stupid. Jasper already said everything that can be said.


mmm...biting cynicism...*drool*

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2003 11:07 am 
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BDM wrote:
But I counter that with then everyone lives in fear the people near them, plus how early do you give a person a gun? 15? 10? How long before someone needs to defend themselves? How do you prevent some teenager either with a gun or with his father's gun he stole from following his angst and shooting several students before a teacher had the time (and GUTS) to blow away said student.


The idea is that having a gun gives you power, when everyone has an equal amount of power the situation becomes less of a "oh I'm going to go do this" because whats the point? Someone can take a knife to school and do the same thing now, but they don't because they don't have a big advantage over their peers. Besides that, guns are already easily available in plenty of places, and school shootings are rare anyway. I doubt people would be encouraged to go shoot some students up if they had no hope of doing anything more than minimal damage.

As to age...well, why not 18 or 21? Lets debate that later, though.

BDM wrote:
plus we all become weak, because mearly shooting a gun takes little to no strength (excluding those with nasty kick-back) and many would become lazy with the idea of excersize


Uh wait, you mean we arn't already with cars and sofas and television?

I mean honestly, everyone can already buy a gun, if they'd become lazy because of that they're lazy already. I don't get the logic here. "I can kill people with my gun, thus I don't need to exercise"?

BDM wrote:
And ANOTHER thing about guns in general. A gun is a VERY easy tool to commit suicide with. I can honestly say that teenage depression/angst (depressangst?) drove me to thinking about suicide a little, and I thought several times, "if there was a gun here, quick and painless, i'd do it..."


Thats just mental stuff speaking, if you want to commit suicide quick and painless jam a knife into your eye, same deal etc., someone who wants to commit suicide will commit it, someone who really doesn't but feels depressed will find excuses not to.

I don't think it'd make more suicides occur, though the success rate might go up.

-MiB

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2003 11:09 am 
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Aerk wrote:
I believe all the guns should be controlled. By me. If should be illegal for anyone to own, touch, see, or even know about guns but me. Bam, no gun related crimes. Except those I commit.

The problem with guns is not rifles or shotguns, but handguns. Handguns are widely available, cheap, and all in all perfect for an urban enviroment.

Therefore, the issue of gun control primarly concerns handguns and their use in violent crime. I think the concept 'smart' handguns are the way to go - guns that can only be fired by its legal owner. Whether this is done with a lock or some more high tech, it is a good measure to implement.

Next, the idea of mandatory gun training is a good idea. The government won't let you drive a car if you can't use it and do not have a license; the same should be true for guns. Just as there is a driving test (on paper or computer) followed by a road test, the same should exist for handguns.


See, but having not having a driver's liscense doesn't stop people from driving. In Texas, you do have to have a liscense for a handgun, but I'm sure that there are quite a few people without them that have handguns all the same.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2003 11:13 am 
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The purpose of gun control is to prevent crimes done with guns.

I think Ollie put it best.

"Why don't we just make crime illegal. Oops..."

-MiB

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2003 11:43 am 
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The Man In Black wrote:
How about "give everyone a loaded gun"?

That solves the problem of violent crime pretty quick, when everyone can shoot back no more massaquers of unarmed civilians, because there are no more unarmed civilians.


What an original idea! Because, you know, I didn't say anything like that earlier in the thread. Fucker.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2003 11:51 am 
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Aerk wrote:
Note: All debates about gun control are futile and stupid. Jasper already said everything that can be said.


I agree, and thanks for the vote of confidence, but I have a couple of things to add.

You can't stop people from selling guns illegally. It just wont happen. So introducing new legislation to combat guns won't help. In fact, it'll more likely hurt, as it will guarantee that only those who care little about the laws will get guns. Definitely not the kind of people you want having them. Instead, sell them with something that will make them safer. The locks will be easy enough to use that it'll become second nature to most to just lock up their guns when they're not in use. They're also easy enough to remove that in case someone does break into your house, you can have the gun ready if you need it (though usually burglars will run away if they hear that someone's awake, as they don't want to risk getting caught. The only ones who will confront you are those that are are there for personal reasons). Also, there will be ways to make the lock less noticeable, so that it wouldn't be possible for the burglar to tell if the gun was locked or not, and as such it might not even be necessary for the gun to be unlocked.

Oh, and apparently there's a town in Kansas that did exactly what Zara and MiB suggest. They don't have the money for a police force, being a small town, but they have a duty to provide for the protection of the citizens, so they made a law that requires every household to own a gun. I don't think it'd work on a large scale, though.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2003 12:27 pm 
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Switzerland

universial national service and then lifetime reservist roles for all adults, when you finish your NatServ you go home with all your kit, including your assualt rifle waiting to be called up for training/war (they're cutting the standing army down at the moment, but it;'s still a world leading force for equipment and training)

somehow you don't get the Swiss shooting each other, but hey, they're probably too busy sitting on piles of Nazi gold like big watchmaking dragons for that

so, the moral is either give everyone a gun and training, or have a nice society where no one gets into the situation where they have to shoot each other.

one you get safe via fear, one you are safe via niceness, which are they?

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2003 1:05 pm 
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The Man In Black wrote:
How about "give everyone a loaded gun"?

That solves the problem of violent crime pretty quick, when everyone can shoot back no more massaquers of unarmed civilians, because there are no more unarmed civilians.

As a side not, everyone will be a lot more polite to each other when you know if you push John Doe too far he'll pull out his piece and shoot you in the face.

-MiB
You put alot more trust in the self-control and moderation of your fellow man then I do.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2003 1:31 pm 
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May have something to do with me not being a bitter, angsty, elitist bitch.

-MiB

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2003 1:37 pm 
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revolutio wrote:
You put alot more trust in the self-control and moderation of your fellow man then I do.


I don't trust humanity either. However, I trust the government (generally made up of the most corrupt and power-hungry segment of humanity) even less. I do not want the state controlling how I use firearms, unless the state is willing to control its own use, which in the current social/economic/international situation, it won't.

I mean, seriously. If America turns into a fascist state, how the hell are we going to overthrow whatever dictator *coughBushcoughcough* winds up rising to power? WITH POINTED STICKS?


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2003 2:30 pm 
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If a people REALLY want a tyrant gone, you can do it without TEH guns. Massive strikes will take down ANY ruler. Still guns can 'hasten' the process. (But can also be used by would be tyrants to overthrow a democratic government)

I used to be pretty much pro-control, but ithas faded almost into oblivion. I would HAVE to say though, that I would prefer to live with rudeness then living in fear that the guy next to me might decide I'm 'rude.' Anyway, even if you gave me a gun for free, I'd just put it somewhere VERY much out of sight, as I REALLY can't imagine myslef ever liking the things. So.... no, they shouldn't be forbidden, but neither am I orgastic of the idea of a country awash with guns.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2003 3:00 pm 
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Rand Al'Tor wrote:
If a people REALLY want a tyrant gone, you can do it without TEH guns. Massive strikes will take down ANY ruler.


Yep, worked with Castro and Mao(protestor pancakes anyone?) and that guy in N. Korea with the hair.

Lets face it, the poorer a population you have, the less likely they can bring down a government with "strikes".

Makes you wonder why Bush and his cronies are trying so hard to make the rich richer and the poor poorer.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2003 3:03 pm 
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Rand wrote:
I would HAVE to say though, that I would prefer to live with rudeness then living in fear that the guy next to me might decide I'm 'rude.'


As would I, but I'm more afraid of this situation. Amy is having a bad day at her job as a waitress, Bill walks in and asks for a drink, Amy gives him the evil eye and stops what she's going to get him a drink, stops, realizes that she was rude, gets afraid that Bill might shoot her, and then turns around and shoots him before he can shoot her.

Give everybody a gun; it's the shortcut to anarchy. Everyone living in paralyzing fear of each other.

Icy wrote:
You put alot more trust in the self-control and moderation of your fellow man then I do.

Mibby wrote:
May have something to do with me not being a bitter, angsty, elitist bitch.


Like it or not, most people believe themselves to be superior to the average person. More rational, able to work things out better. The point of oppressive government propaganda isn't to make you believe, it is to make you think other people believe it. Your fellow man is more of a threat than the government, they live with you, the government doesn't.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2003 3:09 pm 
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Rand Al'Tor wrote:
If a people REALLY want a tyrant gone, you can do it without TEH guns. Massive strikes will take down ANY ruler. Still guns can 'hasten' the process. (But can also be used by would be tyrants to overthrow a democratic government)


Rand, I live in Cuba for the greater part of my life. I personally felt the pain of the trade embargo. Me and my family suffered greatly there, my father had to leave because of political persacution, and I didn't see him till he managed to get me, my mom, and my sister out. My brother was unable to leave with us, and Ive only seen him in talks over the internet and the 1 visit I was aloud. Only one visit in 8 FUCKING YEARS! So you must understand that when somebody says something as stupid as what you just did, I cant help but take it as a personal offense, although I know it was not meant as one. All the trade embargo did is starve my people and strengthen our tyrant. Think before you speak.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2003 3:42 pm 
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Aerk wrote:
I think the concept 'smart' handguns are the way to go - guns that can only be fired by its legal owner. Whether this is done with a lock or some more high tech, it is a good measure to implement.


Tech can't keep people out of you computer when they aren't even in your home, don't expect it to work longer than it takes someone to decide they want to find a way around it.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2003 3:59 pm 
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I don't believe you forgot I'd be angrier at you by FAR than Ollie or Rupert, BD,

If people have a gun they need to practice with it, they don't hit people by fucking magic, it takes some goddamn skill. And a hell of alot better for everyone if the DO know what they are doing and hit the RIGHT person when they need to. Thus, they need ammo to use at the range.

As for 'Smart' Handguns, this is the worst idea in the history of the defensive firearm, I can't even believe that any human being would trust some microchip designed my microsoft toi tell the last thing between himself and getting murdered whether or not to go off, I wanna be fucking sick. The fact it, those things will fucking malfunction, the bracelet won't broadcast, the gun won't notice it, or the burgalar/rapist's cellphone will interfere with it or SOMETHING! Murphy's law applies more to violent, deadly situations more than anything else, giving it total control of your means of defense is just short of an act of deliberate suicide.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2003 3:59 pm 
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All the data we have available (see Switzerland, Ollie's post etc) says that won't happen.

But I guess all that doesn't matter, guns = teh evil, lets trust the gov with them because they're all saints compared to us, I mean if the gov was just your neighbor with a bigger proverbeal stick than you or I then it'd be bad to do that but...oh wait, nm.

-MiB

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2003 4:07 pm 
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OmnipotentEntity wrote:
Rand wrote:
I would HAVE to say though, that I would prefer to live with rudeness then living in fear that the guy next to me might decide I'm 'rude.'


As would I, but I'm more afraid of this situation. Amy is having a bad day at her job as a waitress, Bill walks in and asks for a drink, Amy gives him the evil eye and stops what she's going to get him a drink, stops, realizes that she was rude, gets afraid that Bill might shoot her, and then turns around and shoots him before he can shoot her.

Give everybody a gun; it's the shortcut to anarchy. Everyone living in paralyzing fear of each other.


Give me a break, if everyone had guns, people would get used to them, the only people who are in paralytic fear of guns are people like you. people see cops with guns all the time, it doesn't bother them.

They predicted that the onset of licensed concealed carry laws in Texas would be a return to the Old West. It wasn't. People are not generally blood crazed psychos, most won't kill except in extreme fear. It's hell trying to get soldiers to pull the trigger when they have the enemy in their sights.

But you say the government isn't dangerous, tell that to the people in Cambodia, and all over the third world who were defenseless and unarmed when the government came to kill them. They are still digging up mass graves all over Iraq where their wonderful government forbid the people to be armed.

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One's for sport and one's for blood
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2003 4:11 pm 
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I think it has to do with education too. Most of these liberal asshats who decide to try and put bans on guns are people who have MAYBE held a gun once in their entire fucking lives. They weren't taught the responsibility of handling one.

On second thought, neither were any of these asshat middle and highschoolers who decide that Johnny needs to be shot because Johnny made fun of his nosering.

I think preventing stuff like school shootings could be prevented by actually teaching kids about them. It could be an optional class. They could have a gun class just like they do in boyscouts. Hell, ANY sort of education about them could be good. Because it's been my observation of all of these antigun advocates on the news just fear what they don't understand.

That and society's waaaaay too quick to blame the object, rather than actually blame the PERSON for fucking up. *gasp* Jimmy couldn't have shot that guy! If he didn't have that gun, none of this would have happened! Knee jerk bullshit.

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