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PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2003 4:14 pm 
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I'm offering this as a seperate post because the thought is different.

America is a big country, why have universal gun laws at all, why let the FEDERAL government decide.

You don't like guns? Go to Massachussets.

I'll stay in Texas, maybe have a place in Wyoming or Montana, we're all happy, you feel safe as a guy with a knife is mugging you and raping your sister while you are pissing yourself to death.

And I feel safe on a ranch in Wyoming knowing that I have more artillery than the Rhode Island National Guard and no one is withing 25 miles of me.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2003 4:57 pm 
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Clay_Allison wrote:
OmnipotentEntity wrote:
Rand wrote:
I would HAVE to say though, that I would prefer to live with rudeness then living in fear that the guy next to me might decide I'm 'rude.'


As would I, but I'm more afraid of this situation. Amy is having a bad day at her job as a waitress, Bill walks in and asks for a drink, Amy gives him the evil eye and stops what she's going to get him a drink, stops, realizes that she was rude, gets afraid that Bill might shoot her, and then turns around and shoots him before he can shoot her.

Give everybody a gun; it's the shortcut to anarchy. Everyone living in paralyzing fear of each other.


Give me a break, if everyone had guns, people would get used to them, the only people who are in paralytic fear of guns are people like you. people see cops with guns all the time, it doesn't bother them.


For the record I am against gun control. However, I think that people should be educated on how to use guns, just giving everyone a gun isn't going to solve this problem. I trust cops with guns because

A) they've been trained to use it.
B) if they misuse it they have something to lose (their job, their family etc)

I don't trust John Q. Bum to have a gun because A and B are not satisfied. He may have his second admendmant rights, but that doesn't mean I have to trust him.

Quote:
They predicted that the onset of licensed concealed carry laws in Texas would be a return to the Old West. It wasn't. People are not generally blood crazed psychos, most won't kill except in extreme fear. It's hell trying to get soldiers to pull the trigger when they have the enemy in their sights.


I suppose that cold blooded killing is more difficult than hot blooded killing. I can't say this for certain because I've never killed anything more human than a deer. If someone was shooting at me I wouldn't think twice, him or me, right? I'd have a harder time if I were a sniper picking off a bunch of enemy soldiers who don't know I'm there.

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But you say the government isn't dangerous, tell that to the people in Cambodia, and all over the third world who were defenseless and unarmed when the government came to kill them. They are still digging up mass graves all over Iraq where their wonderful government forbid the people to be armed.


I didn't say that the government isn't dangerous. People who believe in the government are dangerous. A government who doesn't have any people behind it is nothing. The government can order the mass executions, but it's the people who believe that the government is right (or believe that other people believe that the government is right and that they will be killed by those people if they don't play along) that actually kill them.

This is probably why the oldest forms of government are based on religion.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2003 5:00 pm 
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The Man In Black wrote:
May have something to do with me not being a bitter, angsty, elitist bitch.

-MiB
Or all of humanity just being a bunch of asshats in general.

We all know you are the resident Angsty Teen in Denial.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2003 5:26 pm 
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Mibbers?

Angsty teen?

Hah.


Hahaha.

Hahahaaah.

Hahahahahahahahahaahah!

*gives Revolutio the Retard Star of the Day!*


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2003 5:48 pm 
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Eronarn wrote:
Mibbers?

Angsty teen?

Hah.


Hahaha.

Hahahaaah.

Hahahahahahahahahaahah!

*gives Revolutio the Retard Star of the Day!*
Thank you, you are absolutely right he acts nothing like an angsty teen. He is clearly in denial of his condition and over compensates for it by his aggressive overbearing attitude.

He's probably gay too.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2003 6:01 pm 
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OmnipotentEntity wrote:
Icy wrote:
You put alot more trust in the self-control and moderation of your fellow man then I do.


Uhm, that was revolutio who said that, not me. As I've said, I'm much more afraid of the government than the public.

I don't think we should stop at guns, either. I think the public should be given access to high explosives... I'd probably stop at nukes though. Then again, I hate the idea of our government having nukes as well.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2003 6:02 pm 
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I was stupid, it was quoted in your post and I just looked over.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2003 6:10 pm 
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Zarathustra wrote:
I don't trust humanity either. However, I trust the government (generally made up of the most corrupt and power-hungry segment of humanity) even less. I do not want the state controlling how I use firearms, unless the state is willing to control its own use, which in the current social/economic/international situation, it won't.

I mean, seriously. If America turns into a fascist state, how the hell are we going to overthrow whatever dictator *coughBushcoughcough* winds up rising to power? WITH POINTED STICKS?
Sigh the illusion of actually being able to have a chance at violent revolution. Good God just look at our military. There would be absolutely nothing in the public domain that could lay a finger on the Air Force the navy would pound the coastal cities into dust without even breaking a sweat. The army would have an obscene kill to death ratio.

Face it, civilians would be fucked like Mibby in prison on day one. Besides we have already established by elections that over 50% of the population doesn't give a flying fuck about the government so you wouldn't even have every person fighting back. You would have bandwagon patriots who would refuse to recognize the situation. The Right and Left wingers would never fight together and Australia would be all like "Wtf mate?"


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2003 7:07 pm 
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revolutio wrote:
...
In my opinion they should have made guns illegal following the establishment of a national army. However for some God forsaken reason they thought people were sensible enough to have their own guns without parental supervision thus we are in the vice we are today.


Lets start here. You sir are a fucking IDIOT! Perhaps you know nothing of American History but if we had revoked the right for the citizens to keep and bear arms after the establishment of a national army (which I might add happened BEFORE we were a country) we would have failed as a country.

Guns were integral to survival throughout the country until the 1900's. They fed countless people and defended our country in some wars (1812 and civil come to mind but the general expertice of an american with a gun is without compare the world over.)

Now if you are honestly suggesting that we tell the very fathers of our country to fuck off, that they got the very principles of freedom, the principles that are the BASIS for our existence, wrong would be idiotic. Please, if you are going to voice unlearned, ignornant, and plain stupid opinions please go boil some bleach and breathe the fumes.

Now to get to your purely ignorant comment about the army.

revolutio wrote:
Zarathustra wrote:
I don't trust humanity either. However, I trust the government (generally made up of the most corrupt and power-hungry segment of humanity) even less. I do not want the state controlling how I use firearms, unless the state is willing to control its own use, which in the current social/economic/international situation, it won't.

I mean, seriously. If America turns into a fascist state, how the hell are we going to overthrow whatever dictator *coughBushcoughcough* winds up rising to power? WITH POINTED STICKS?


Sigh the illusion of actually being able to have a chance at violent revolution. Good God just look at our military. There would be absolutely nothing in the public domain that could lay a finger on the Air Force the navy would pound the coastal cities into dust without even breaking a sweat. The army would have an obscene kill to death ratio.

Face it, civilians would be fucked like Mibby in prison on day one. Besides we have already established by elections that over 50% of the population doesn't give a flying fuck about the government so you wouldn't even have every person fighting back. You would have bandwagon patriots who would refuse to recognize the situation. The Right and Left wingers would never fight together and Australia would be all like "Wtf mate?"


Ok, first Icy makes some good points, a little extremist but good for illustration purposes. You however take a useful tool break it into a million pieces and then blend it with shit.

You are very right that nothing in the private domain can touch the air force or navy. However both of these would be insignificant in the event of a revolution. History, through the most current wars (Gulf 1&2 make this painfully clear), has shown that the ONLY thing that can win a war is ground troops. So we have the Army and Marines. Helicopters and tanks are easily taken out so it becomes a pretty balanced fight.

All of this however neglects to take into account the very fact that our soldiers are not mindless automitons. I personally know a very wide range of military people, and since my wife and numerous of my friends have joined the army I've gotten a very good view of their beliefs. If you think that our army would shoot americans these days you are sorely mistaken. While there are some that would roughly 70% would revolt against the government. What you fail to realize is that since Vietnam and Kent State NO ONE in the military has been willing to use violence against fellow citizens in any large scale.

You also neglect the fact that the Generals in our armies are some of the biggest capitalists out there. They have more to lose in a dictatorship or fascist state than nearly anyone else.

So while your alarmist propaganda looks good try a taste of reality for a change. I despise Bush and am suspicious of my government but at least I'm not an idiot about it. Try being a responsible citizen for a change, hell you might even like it!

-Lifyre
Why do you idiots try me so?

[edit]
Just for the record MiB is one of the least angsty people I know. And I fail to see how his sexuality matters? Unless of course this is yet another demonstration of your ignorance in thinking this makes his opinion any less valid.

Honestly making retard comments like these just point to your own deficiences, or percieved deficiencies in yourself. You prolly see yourself as a angst ridden gay man with fantasies for Mibbers here. (Ok, maybe not mibbers)
[/edit]

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2003 8:04 pm 
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Sorry you actually bought into that load of BS Lifyre. I was just trolling. I thought I'd try it out and you guys with your gun fetish were just too tempting a target. You are under no obligation to think I am telling the truth and not merely doing this to save face.

Sorry for leading you guys on. I really don't care whether people have guns or not.

Though I was serious about MiB being an angst ridden teen in denial. And he loves the cock.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2003 8:18 pm 
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If you were trolling you did a good job :-p

I still have to disagree on the angst. And I suspect that his extreme whippedness to a female suggests otherwise. There are a few people who are admittedly gay around here, Hell Grey declared his love for MiB not too long ago. I think it's just MiB's unfortunate resemblence to a teddy bear.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2003 8:33 pm 
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Lifyre wrote:
If you were trolling you did a good job :-p

I still have to disagree on the angst. And I suspect that his extreme whippedness to a female suggests otherwise. There are a few people who are admittedly gay around here, Hell Grey declared his love for MiB not too long ago. I think it's just MiB's unfortunate resemblence to a teddy bear.
Yeah, it was easy since i do harbour a dislike of guns. They are implements of killing afterall. But I don't let that get in the way of logic.

I was joking. MiB is definently not angsty. He just works very hard to be a tough guy which is something alot of angst filled teens do (albeit quite poorly). He is younger than me and far more mature than me so I can hardly thumb my nose at him.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2003 11:49 pm 
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revolutio wrote:
Though I was serious about MiB being an angst ridden teen in denial. And he loves the cock.


OMEG HOMOPHOBIC BIGOTRY IS SO GHAY.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2003 7:12 am 
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revolutio wrote:
Lifyre wrote:
If you were trolling you did a good job :-p

I still have to disagree on the angst. And I suspect that his extreme whippedness to a female suggests otherwise. There are a few people who are admittedly gay around here, Hell Grey declared his love for MiB not too long ago. I think it's just MiB's unfortunate resemblence to a teddy bear.
Yeah, it was easy since i do harbour a dislike of guns. They are implements of killing afterall. But I don't let that get in the way of logic.

I was joking. MiB is definently not angsty. He just works very hard to be a tough guy which is something alot of angst filled teens do (albeit quite poorly). He is younger than me and far more mature than me so I can hardly thumb my nose at him.


/me proceeds to dies laughing now

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2003 2:37 pm 
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I think you should know my opinion on this situation. You try to take my firearms, no matter who, they get at very least a buttstroke to the gut. By having my rifles, it gives me the means to protect myself, my family, and anyone else I feel like protecting.

Somehow I'm surprised Icy and I are on the same side on this issue.

Oh, and on computer-chip controlled weapons, all that "smart" stuff: Just how long do you think it'll take before someone comes up with a way to h4xX0r that stuff and make the weapon completely useless?

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2003 2:50 pm 
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Rupert The Airborne Rat wrote:
Oh, and on computer-chip controlled weapons, all that "smart" stuff: Just how long do you think it'll take before someone comes up with a way to h4xX0r that stuff and make the weapon completely useless?


I doubt because of the kickback, that a computer chip could withstand a gunshot on board a gun. If they did all you'd need is a cattle prod or something and it'd be dead. Computer Chips are incredibly easy to fuck up.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2003 6:25 pm 
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For the record, I don't really want a computer-controlled gun, but my reasoning comes mostly out of the fact that I don't completely trust anything I can't take apart, clean, repair, alter, and put back together. If I had full access to plans and parts for my gun's control computer, I might not mind as much. Of course that eliminates most of the reason for having the computer in the first place.

Clay_Allison wrote:
As for 'Smart' Handguns, this is the worst idea in the history of the defensive firearm, I can't even believe that any human being would trust some microchip designed my microsoft toi tell the last thing between himself and getting murdered whether or not to go off, I wanna be fucking sick. The fact it, those things will fucking malfunction, the bracelet won't broadcast, the gun won't notice it, or the burgalar/rapist's cellphone will interfere with it or SOMETHING! Murphy's law applies more to violent, deadly situations more than anything else, giving it total control of your means of defense is just short of an act of deliberate suicide.


OmnipotentEntity wrote:
I doubt because of the kickback, that a computer chip could withstand a gunshot on board a gun. If they did all you'd need is a cattle prod or something and it'd be dead. Computer Chips are incredibly easy to fuck up.


The embeded systems people haven't been doing too bad lately. Think about a car computer. Lots of vibration, temperature changes, stresses, and it can't be allowed to crash. In fact, you're already trusting computerized electronics with your own personal survival every time your late-model anti-lock brakes kick in.

There's no real reason that the weapon needs lots of fancy functions or sophisticated communication with anyone not using it. When you have a system that doesn't do very many things, it's feasible to get to zero defects because you can test it in almost every possible situation.

As far as chips being fragile, they really aren't. They're just chunks of semiconductor. The fragile parts are all at the board level. If you mount everything with lots of vibration in mind, you don't have problems. The same goes for EMPs. Shield, isolate, and design around.

Cattle prods might be more of a problem, I suppose. You could isolate the internal parts, but you'd still need some kind of external interface that a few 10s of kVs could cook. It seems a little contrived though.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2003 10:21 pm 
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If you're still not convinced its the people and not the guns, check out this website:

http://www.guncite.com/gc2ndpeo.html


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 04, 2003 4:10 am 
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car compute chips

earlier this year mine screwed up, brand new car and teh computer had a little error that made it never quite 'turn off' when i parked the car up and switched off the ignition

thus when i would come back to the car a few days later the battery would be flat, and as it's a wholey electronic car (new Nissan Micra) you can't zap it to open the door to open the bonnet (hood) release catch

there are no key holes in the door, also the door handles are electronic, so you can't stick a loop of wire in and hood them

i took it back to th garage after using a secret way to break in and they fixed it with a program patch. it didn't work, nex week that same problem, next patch fixed it tho

now that was trouble because i suddenly went from having a car to not having one, i ended up gettign friends to give me lifts to the cinema and supermarket etc, if i'd been wannting to take a causlty to hospital or otherwise rush somewhere, i'm screwed...

technology's great, when it works, as it was i had an eight thousand pound piece of modern art parked on my street for a week

that's why everyone loves the AK, it's a piece of ancient junk, but if it works it's far better than any brand new computer controled high tech gun you've got that has just one tiny glitch in it

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 04, 2003 5:10 am 
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Ancient wrote:
Rand Al'Tor wrote:
If a people REALLY want a tyrant gone, you can do it without TEH guns. Massive strikes will take down ANY ruler. Still guns can 'hasten' the process. (But can also be used by would be tyrants to overthrow a democratic government)


Rand, I live in Cuba for the greater part of my life. I personally felt the pain of the trade embargo. Me and my family suffered greatly there, my father had to leave because of political persacution, and I didn't see him till he managed to get me, my mom, and my sister out. My brother was unable to leave with us, and Ive only seen him in talks over the internet and the 1 visit I was aloud. Only one visit in 8 FUCKING YEARS! So you must understand that when somebody says something as stupid as what you just did, I cant help but take it as a personal offense, although I know it was not meant as one. All the trade embargo did is starve my people and strengthen our tyrant. Think before you speak.


Euh... I THINK we might have a little misunderstanding here. I never actually said anything about trade embargoes, did I? I meant as in 'local population of a country telling tyrannic government to see how long they'll survive without any people on the farms and factories'

I am NO fan of the trade embargo.

But that's another discussion.

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