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 Post subject: Minorities
PostPosted: Sat Dec 06, 2003 6:56 pm 
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Ok. This has kindof started between Icy and I, so I'm starting it here. First off, let me state my opinions and facts.

I am about 1/4 Cherokee, but that is pointless to mention, as I don't have paperwork, so for this argument, I am 100% Caucasion. I am male, middle class, and white. Now, due to things such as affirmative action and feminism, I have become opressed. I cannot say I dislike anything of an opposite sex, color, or creed or I am a bigot. I am part of the majority, yet I am treated worse than the minority. I get passed over for jobs, scholarships, etc. simply because I am white. Reverse discrimination has been a plight against my family and the familys of people like us. We are lower middle class, so we don't have enough money to do things, like put me through college, yet we make too much money to get decent financial aid. If I was a minority, money would be pouring in, and I'm getting bent over because I am not.

Now, I'm not a racist. I don't like race at all. For a truely equal country, people must be really be together and not seperate. All this country does is seperate people into groups, and thats where racism begins. People should not be judged by their race, gender, etc. My solution is completely remove benifits at all for being part of a specific race, gender, etc. Take those questions off of employment, academic, federal, etc. applications and equality can happen.

Thats my take. What is yours?


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 06, 2003 7:17 pm 
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Personally I don't subscribe to the white man opression arguement but I DO understand what Kry is saying.

I am also very anti afirmative action. I think it drives us apart as a country and is mildly unconstitutional.

I like the idea of providing helping out the downtrodden and less advantaged.

However this SHOULD NOT be based upon race. It should be exclusively based on financial and family situations. Basically, poor people get more than rich people regardless of race. Arguements can be made about whether or not family should matter and I'd be willing to entertain other peoples POV on that.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 06, 2003 7:25 pm 
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Quote:
However this SHOULD NOT be based upon race. It should be exclusively based on financial and family situations.

bingo. favor kids from poor single parent families. don't favor Jesse Jackson's kids because they're black.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 06, 2003 7:37 pm 
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Perfecto. I'd support things like that if it was based off financial situations.

-MiB

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 06, 2003 7:40 pm 
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I would as well, but they aren't. I just wish my aunt would get all of my family's information gathered up so I could be a minority. It would be fun to get free hunting and fishing for the rest of my days as a Native American.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 06, 2003 8:56 pm 
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programs for the poor and against the rich leads to financial equality, commies!


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 Post subject: Re: Minorities
PostPosted: Sat Dec 06, 2003 9:58 pm 
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krylex wrote:
Now, I'm not a racist. I don't like race at all. For a truely equal country, people must be really be together and not seperate. All this country does is seperate people into groups, and thats where racism begins. People should not be judged by their race, gender, etc.

Multiculturalism was developed by the state as a strategy for containing the difference, rather than promoting it as it appears to do so, the same goes for gender or disabilities.

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 Post subject: Re: Minorities
PostPosted: Sat Dec 06, 2003 10:22 pm 
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**stuff** wrote:
krylex wrote:
Now, I'm not a racist. I don't like race at all. For a truely equal country, people must be really be together and not seperate. All this country does is seperate people into groups, and thats where racism begins. People should not be judged by their race, gender, etc.

Multiculturalism was developed by the state as a strategy for containing the difference, rather than promoting it as it appears to do so, the same goes for gender or disabilities.


I can at least understand the issue for disabilities. But for the others these days it seems to make it harder to be color/gender blind. You honestly can't promote unity and acceptance by highlighting the differences.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 06, 2003 10:26 pm 
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I can't say I agree with you guys. I'm white, male, and was born into a middle-class family, and I must say that it's been a pretty sweet deal so far.

On another note, the vast majority of the black kids I know happen to come from low-income and/or single-parent families from the Jordan neighborhood in urban Minneapolis, the closest thing to a ghetto for hundreds of miles, making its residents the ideal targets for affirmative action. While it's true that there are a few white families and enclaves of other ethnicities living in the area, It really seems to me that the black race would be benefiting the most from affirmative action under either plan.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 06, 2003 10:47 pm 
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Sako wrote:
I can't say I agree with you guys. I'm white, male, and was born into a middle-class family, and I must say that it's been a pretty sweet deal so far.

On another note, the vast majority of the black kids I know happen to come from low-income and/or single-parent families from the Jordan neighborhood in urban Minneapolis, the closest thing to a ghetto for hundreds of miles, making its residents the ideal targets for affirmative action. While it's true that there are a few white families and enclaves of other ethnicities living in the area, It really seems to me that the black race would be benefiting the most from affirmative action under either plan.


I fail to see your point. I don't care if the black people benefit the most from it.

Here, let me illustrate my point. I have a black friend who goes to the same school I do, he lives just down the street from me and makes the same amount of money that Aimee and I do (within about 1500 dollars last year). He is single and 22. His financial aid is 3 times mine and 50% of that aid I am inelligable for because I am white.

My point is that one system is fair to everyone and does it's best to treat everyone who is equal as equal. The other (current) system elevates people and throws equality out the window, thus shortchanging and depriving people of opportunity.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 06, 2003 10:55 pm 
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Lifyre wrote:

Here, let me illustrate my point. I have a black friend who goes to the same school I do, he lives just down the street from me and makes the same amount of money that Aimee and I do (within about 1500 dollars last year). He is single and 22. His financial aid is 3 times mine and 50% of that aid I am inelligable for because I am white.

My point is that one system is fair to everyone and does it's best to treat everyone who is equal as equal. The other (current) system elevates people and throws equality out the window, thus shortchanging and depriving people of opportunity.


I wasn't trying to make a point. I honestly believe that a colorblind society would be far better for all of us. But white, middle-to-upper class males still hold the majority of the power in this nation, and racial and sexual prejudice is still evident all around us. Until this changes, I believe that race and gender-based affirmative action is a neccessary evil.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2003 12:39 am 
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I'm not racist, I have black friends.

Anyway, racism still exists. The more people that bitch about it the worse it is going to get because the world is filled with trolls. The more people that worry about it the worse its going to get because the world is filled with thoughtless youth.

I am just glad I am not one of the poor bastards who has to sort out the mess of getting an entire race to rebound from 200+ years of oppression and integrate them into society. Meanwhile I will just be forgetting any of it is happening and taking a nap, because I just don't care.*

*Yes people like me are what is wrong with society.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2003 3:30 am 
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The United States of America is the most diverse continent in the world. We are a melting pot of races and cultures, which make us a perfect target of minorities and other sects to unite. As the U.S. is also the leading contendor in civil rights and equality laws, this seems to benefit the needs and wants of other humans beings who are not white males.

Black oppression from the white race is the utencil for most Black Activist Groups and minorities that separate themselves from the group. They believe that they should be reimbursed for the centuries of slavery and negativity implemented; not to mention that the majority of black people are either in lower middle-class density or are poverty stricken. Modern day government and society tells us that numerous scholarships, media/television programming, schools/colleges, and clothing apparel is strictly for the black man. Two words: independence and freedom.

I think that government and state based funding is given to minorities because some minorities are full of poor people. You think that immigrants who sail over from Poland or Spanish people who move in from Venezuela start off in high-class housing and get paid 100k/year salaries? No. Fuck that. Minorities are compiled of a fair amount of poor/near poor people, which is why the government makes funding available solely to minorities more so than other disadvantaged people (i.e. whites.)

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2003 5:47 am 
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Hmmm...

Is affirmative action fair?

No. Clearly and absolutely not.

But I CAN see the reasoning behind it. The idea is. minorities are in economical lower situations (and because of the racism present in the economical elite, which is in general, white.). Poverty leads to increased crime (the crime that you get thrown in jail for often that is) and general ghettoforming. That leads to increased feelings of racism from both sides. This leads to the majority (or rather, the group with most economical power: White males) treat the minorities less favourably, whic causes them to remain in economically low positions, and the circle starts anew.

If you 'cheat' a bit with affirmative action, you'll eventually get minorities in economically high position, the majority will get used to the idea of those minorities in the position and eventually, the positive discrimination would make itself obsolete.

But as said, it can do plenty of damage. Some people might grow dependant on it, and the economically lower classes of the majority may resent it, leading to MORE racism. I can't really say from all the way overhere whether the pros outweigh the cons. But even if it works, I can see what the problem is. Can you use a racist temporarely policy, in an effort to fight racism?

Of cousre.... me being a commie I say that minorities shouldn't worry about getting in higher posiions and bigger paychecks, but should join forces with the other workers and eliminate those higher positions (the POSITIONS, not the PEOPLE) and the need for them. But that's another debate.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2003 9:54 am 
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Rand Al'Tor wrote:
...

But I CAN see the reasoning behind it. The idea is. minorities are in economical lower situations (and because of the racism present in the economical elite, which is in general, white.). Poverty leads to increased crime (the crime that you get thrown in jail for often that is) and general ghettoforming. That leads to increased feelings of racism from both sides. This leads to the majority (or rather, the group with most economical power: White males) treat the minorities less favourably, whic causes them to remain in economically low positions, and the circle starts anew.

...


This is my point exactly. I don't think we should treat race as the problem but financial situation as the problem. Poverty is a major problem in society and we should treat it as such. Just because the majority of black people are poor doesn't mean they are the problem yet that is often how they are treated.

DavidOfTheEast wrote:
The United States of America is the most diverse continent in the world. We are a melting pot of races and cultures, which make us a perfect target of minorities and other sects to unite. As the U.S. is also the leading contendor in civil rights and equality laws, this seems to benefit the needs and wants of other humans beings who are not white males.

Black oppression from the white race is the utencil for most Black Activist Groups and minorities that separate themselves from the group. They believe that they should be reimbursed for the centuries of slavery and negativity implemented; not to mention that the majority of black people are either in lower middle-class density or are poverty stricken. Modern day government and society tells us that numerous scholarships, media/television programming, schools/colleges, and clothing apparel is strictly for the black man. Two words: independence and freedom.

I think that government and state based funding is given to minorities because some minorities are full of poor people. You think that immigrants who sail over from Poland or Spanish people who move in from Venezuela start off in high-class housing and get paid 100k/year salaries? No. Fuck that. Minorities are compiled of a fair amount of poor/near poor people, which is why the government makes funding available solely to minorities more so than other disadvantaged people (i.e. whites.)


I know there is a point to this... I will find it... I THINK this is basically saying what is current policy. It doesn't make a case either way as far as I can see, at least not a very strong one. Especially once you realize many of the "minorities" he applies this to are considered white.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2003 10:46 am 
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See, my problem is not with minorities getting ahead. My problem is that people in the EXACT same financial situation as me, many times better situations, get more help and have a better chance at getting a job simply because of their race. A person of a minority who makes twice my families income will still get more aid simply because they are still a minority. This has has happened to me plenty of times.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2003 11:05 am 
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yeah, but what i want to know is what Kry's indian name is? and does he have a spirit animal?

what? i want to know

(I've got a pile a few feet high of books on and around this subject and i have no wish to dig into them again any time soon...)

also i'd contest the 'US = most diverse place ev4r' comment, you;re thinking city centers, try looking at some European cities some time, why was France so careful not to invade Iraq? they just happen to have a significant Muslim population prehaps?

got to work out if your'e talking city, state, nation or world level policies here

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2003 12:19 pm 
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I'd dispute Rand's claim that poverty = crime, poverty = a certain type of crime, move up and you just get blue collar/white collar crimes instead of poverty-inspired crimes, its not really that big a difference, its just that the news concentrates on TEH EBIL BLCK PPL CRIME and you get the idea that all crime is related to poverty, when a good chunk of crime (just not the crime that gets paid attention to) is blue/white collar oriented.

I mean saying no poverty = no crime or even nessesarily that much less crime is rather silly. Lets not forget teh good functions of having a poor class either, more workers, cheap labor, more money for people who don't suck etc. I mean really, if we waved a magic wand and made all the poor people have 40k a year, enough businesses would immediately die that a good chunk of the population would end up unemployed anyway, solving the problem immediately creates it again, at least under these circumstances.

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 Post subject: Fucking collectivism.
PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2003 3:01 pm 
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I had a spiffy, fluid explaination of my beliefs on this subject until my computer crashed and I lost it all. Fuck.

Basically my point was that there is more genetic difference within the supposed 'races' than in between their arbitrary, phenotypic, boundries, and thus are a social creation. I even had a link to someone with an impressive sounding title backing that statement up in a Nature article. I don't care to find it again, just google search for 'gentic variation race'.

So, genetic similarity cannot be used as an argument.

Now, on the social end of things, I propose that just because people look alike does not mean they are the same, a radical concept, I know. :wink: My evidence for this is more qualitative than quantitative, as it's based on my experience dealing with random people.

So if you argree that people are not the same because they look the same, social arguments based on how someone looks are invalid.

Race should not and cannot be used for determining who recieves what benefit.

Additionally, in private relations/contracts/etc discrimination IS and acceptable thing. If I do not like someone for any random reason, I do not have to deal with them. It is my opinion that in a PRIVATELY owned enterprise or contract/relation of any sort, discrimination is well within the rights of each individual. Public contacts are another thing entirely. In the context of any government related endevor, weather it's taxes, a public college, or an INCORPORATED company that receives government benefits (not privately held companies), discrimination is not an option.

Further and more specifically, any affirmative action, for ANY reason, economic status included, is immoral and illegal under the US constitution if performed on behalf of the government, or government related/funded organizations. I would contend that it is immoral for any organization that has the power to use physical force to discriminate.

The question to ask oneself when thinking about these issues is where do the values/money/opportunities come from that is used to benefit these 'disadvantaged' peoples. It is forcibly taken from those who have worked to earn it. It is stolen, with the threat of imprisonment or death at the hands of the government if one does not comply.

The question to ask is, because some people do not have as much money as others, do they have a RIGHT to violate the property rights of others? That is, the right to be secure in life by knowing one can use what one has worked for? I would say no.

Fuck affirmative action in all forms, for all people, equally.
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2003 8:32 pm 
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The Man In Black wrote:
Perfecto. I'd support things like that if it was based off financial situations.

-MiB


The problem I have with this is that some people's parents have plenty of money but wouldn't give them the time of day.

My dad told me that if I couldn't get a scholarship, there was a Montgomery GI plan for me, I got a scholarship.

Maybe award a bit more to those that went to poorer school districts that might have hurt them educationally.

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