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We are French we should:
A) Put our Hands up or your mom will shoot. 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
B) Reinstate the monarchy and finally get back to doing what we do best, making pretty stuff and being irrelevant. 19%  19%  [ 3 ]
C) Commit collective suicide and let the ones smart enough to not partake run the country. 50%  50%  [ 8 ]
D) Become a United States Colony. 6%  6%  [ 1 ]
E) All of the above. 25%  25%  [ 4 ]
Total votes : 16
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 Post subject: Yay For the French!
PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2003 2:55 pm 
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People talk about us (the US) capitalizing and exploiting the war on terror but even the French have gotten into the game!

http://edition.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/europ ... index.html

To paraphrase:

"You are no longer allowed to show your differences, we are going to mold you into mildless followers who are all stamped from the same mold."

Is this what freedom of religion is coming to? Religion in the Governments mold? Didn't the Soviets try this?

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Last edited by Lifyre on Thu Dec 18, 2003 3:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2003 2:58 pm 
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This should be in debate club -_-

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I will discuss when it has been moved to the appropriate forum.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2003 2:58 pm 
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Yeah that is pretty sad we have been talking about it over at the Christian Forums. Of course it quickly digressed into some doomsayers proclaiming the ACLU would follow France's lead soon.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2003 3:14 pm 
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The motivation behing this move was two-fold.

Firstly it was about women's rights. Almost no-body would argue that Mulim women as a general rule get a shit time of it. And the main outward manifestation of this that we see the most is the fact that they are not allowed to show skin in public.

Secondarilly (this is from a high-level french polition who was part of a debate on the radio a couple of days ago) is that there is apparently a belief amongst the french public that any immagreants should be integrated not by changing the country's current culture to incorporate new beliefs and ways of doing things but by changing themselves. And they see headsarfs and such as an insult, like saying that they aren't thankful for the fact that they have been given the opportunity to stay in the country or some shuch. Essentially they want the current culture to remain static as opposed to fluidly evolving over time.

The Jewish skullcap and Christian cross were inculded basically so that there was no perception of discrimination against Muslims.

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The views expressed here are not my own. Simply a summary of the arguments I have heard while watching/listening to/reading news reports and were typed up to give a background for the reasoning rather than relying on one biased source (of course, I am totally unbaised :wink:)

[EDIT: I forgot about the Muslim community in France -_-, basically I agree with what Ollie said below]

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Last edited by thekillmaster on Thu Dec 18, 2003 3:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2003 3:14 pm 
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the French have a big secular thing going in their state, Americans in their god-bothering way often seem to forget that the church and state are pretty good when kept apart, anyway, the law above is applied to all 'overt' items of religious dress/ornimentation on *all* religions

note also that France has the largest Muslim population in Europe (some 3 millionish) (another of it's reasons not to jump on the Iraq war fun) so things like this get a big reaction and are thought out pretty carefully before hand

stil, i'd like to see where the line between "i like to wear a cloth on my head" and "I'm doing it for my religion" are seperated, also the French students like to go on strike or march against *anything* never mind something internationally political like this

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2003 4:43 pm 
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ollie wrote:
the French have a big secular thing going in their state, Americans in their god-bothering way often seem to forget that the church and state are pretty good when kept apart, anyway, the law above is applied to all 'overt' items of religious dress/ornimentation on *all* religions

note also that France has the largest Muslim population in Europe (some 3 millionish) (another of it's reasons not to jump on the Iraq war fun) so things like this get a big reaction and are thought out pretty carefully before hand

stil, i'd like to see where the line between "i like to wear a cloth on my head" and "I'm doing it for my religion" are seperated, also the French students like to go on strike or march against *anything* never mind something internationally political like this


MY problem is this isn't separation of church and state this is regulation of church and populous by the state... If he was banning officially sanctioned religious items I would agree but since this is stuff worn by the populous for their own benefit and in no way connected to the state this is narrowing the line bewteen church and state not expanding it.

And as for our god bothering, the sooner we kill the fuckers who think that everyone has to be their religion and beliefs or hung on fences the better.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2003 7:38 pm 
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Quote:
And as for our god bothering, the sooner we kill the fuckers who think that everyone has to be their religion and beliefs or hung on fences the better.


Better be prepared to kill a significant percentage of the world's Islamic population, then.

As for France, they have a definite problem with their unassimilated Muslim immigrants. The "zones," the housing complexes set outside the cities themselves, and occupied largely by these immigrants, are horrifically crime-infested. Like some of the worst American ghettos, these are places where police fear to tread, because the criminals are likely better-armed than they are and are utterly unafraid of using that firepower. Unlike traditional immigrants, the majority of the Muslims in France seem to have no intention of conforming to the native culture; instead, the goal seems to be to shift the culture to match their own.

Also, France's Muslim population is currently exploding (in the demographic, not Palestinian -- yet -- sense). If current trends continue, the French will become a minority in their own country, and if this happens their society as we know it now will likely cease to exist.

Despite all the joking about the French and their tendencies to surrender, that applies mostly to their politicians; their soldiers tend to be people you do not want to screw around with. The French need only to decide if their society is worth defending; unfortunately, from the way things are going currently I think they might decide that it's not.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2003 7:42 pm 
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Kylaer wrote:
Also, France's Muslim population is currently exploding (in the demographic, not Palestinian -- yet -- sense). If current trends continue, the French will become a minority in their own country, and if this happens their society as we know it now will likely cease to exist.
Well Hell. Finally some good news.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2003 7:45 pm 
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revolutio wrote:
Kylaer wrote:
Also, France's Muslim population is currently exploding (in the demographic, not Palestinian -- yet -- sense). If current trends continue, the French will become a minority in their own country, and if this happens their society as we know it now will likely cease to exist.
Well Hell. Finally some good news.


To be replaced with another Iraq in missile-lobbing reach of all the "Satanic infidels" it can think of save one--us.

Yes, I know I shouldn't take what you said seriously. Truth be told, I wouldn't care if France went *poof* tomorrow, if this weren't the reason why.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2003 7:47 pm 
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Ghost wrote:
To be replaced with another Iraq in missile-lobbing reach of all the "Satanic infidels" it can think of save one--us.

Yes, I know I shouldn't take what you said seriously. Truth be told, I wouldn't care if France went *poof* tomorrow, if this weren't the reason why.
Afterall, we all know that all Muslims like lobbing missiles at Satanic infidels. What gives Rince?


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2003 8:38 pm 
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revolutio wrote:
Ghost wrote:
To be replaced with another Iraq in missile-lobbing reach of all the "Satanic infidels" it can think of save one--us.

Yes, I know I shouldn't take what you said seriously. Truth be told, I wouldn't care if France went *poof* tomorrow, if this weren't the reason why.
Afterall, we all know that all Muslims like lobbing missiles at Satanic infidels. What gives Rince?


I'm Ghost. RMG's thataway. *points left*

And no, not all; it's just been accepted that, as a rule, places where the Muslim population is crammed together and irritated enough that riots start over anything related to the Mideast are generally more inclined towards fanaticism rather than rationality.

And fanatics are what the Wahhabist mosques are breeding nowadays. And Wahhabism has a rather large majority in France.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2003 8:49 pm 
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The only single nation in human history that i truly, sincerely hate is France.

Arrogant in the face of reality and hundreds of years of failure and stupidity, anything bad that happens to them makes me happier.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2003 9:00 pm 
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Ghost wrote:
I'm Ghost. RMG's thataway. *points left*

And no, not all; it's just been accepted that, as a rule, places where the Muslim population is crammed together and irritated enough that riots start over anything related to the Mideast are generally more inclined towards fanaticism rather than rationality.

And fanatics are what the Wahhabist mosques are breeding nowadays. And Wahhabism has a rather large majority in France.
Well I learn something new every day. I didn't realize Wahhabists constituted the majority of any country's Muslim population. Ah well, thank you Rince.

Clay_Allison wrote:
The only single nation in human history that i truly, sincerely hate is France.

Arrogant in the face of reality and hundreds of years of failure and stupidity, anything bad that happens to them makes me happier.
I have to take something seriously to hate it. I couldn't for the life of my take France seriously and I haven't been able to since I saw Monty Python and the Holy Grail when I was 12. I just break down and giggle at the thought of France.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2003 9:11 pm 
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Seriously, Ghost isn't me.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2003 9:26 pm 
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RMG wrote:
Seriously, Ghost isn't me.
:o There are two of you!

*waves stick around defensively*

STAY BACK!!!


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2003 10:27 pm 
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Ghost wrote:
And no, not all; it's just been accepted that, as a rule, places where the Muslim population is crammed together and irritated enough that riots start over anything related to the Mideast are generally more inclined towards fanaticism rather than rationality.

And fanatics are what the Wahhabist mosques are breeding nowadays. And Wahhabism has a rather large majority in France.


Also, one must remember that the Wahhabis have an extremely active mosque- and madrassa-building program all across the globe, financed by Saudi money (the Saudis spend more money promoting Wahhabism than the Soviets spent on their propaganda). So, the most intolerant and dangerous form of Islam is the one being most actively spread, with predictable results.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 19, 2003 9:11 am 
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Kylaer wrote:
Also, one must remember that the Wahhabis have an extremely active mosque- and madrassa-building program all across the globe, financed by Saudi money (the Saudis spend more money promoting Wahhabism than the Soviets spent on their propaganda).


I believe that would be because the Saudi royal family are Wahhabis themselves, have been since virtually the beginning of the Wahhabi movement in uh... the 1780s. And when you have that much money it's fairly logical for one to go around advocating their own flavour of religion.
From the little I've read, I understood Wahhabism to be a more conservative than Sunni Islam generally is, however nowhere near as extreme as Sh'ism is in its teachings.

revolutio wrote:
Well I learn something new every day. I didn't realize Wahhabists constituted the majority of any country's Muslim population.

For what it's worth, my understanding of it was that Saudi Arabia had a Wahhabist majority, one of the 'fun' things autocrats can do is make sure everyone is of the right religion. Sadly I don't have any numbers to confirm this, but it's also entirely plausible that Wahhabism is just the religion of the aristocracy...

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 19, 2003 11:38 am 
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Vass wrote:
I believe that would be because the Saudi royal family are Wahhabis themselves, have been since virtually the beginning of the Wahhabi movement in uh... the 1780s.


Your date is roughly correct, and yes, the Wahhabi originators were tightly linked to the House of Saud, and assisted each others' rise to power.

Quote:
From the little I've read, I understood Wahhabism to be a more conservative than Sunni Islam generally is, however nowhere near as extreme as Sh'ism is in its teachings.


This, however, is incorrect. Wahhabism is harsher than either Shia or Sunni Islam. The Taliban were Wahhabis, Osama bin Laden is a Wahhabi, the 9-11 hijackers were Wahhabis, and it is the Wahhabi mosques and madrassas that are the ones churning out more jihadis across the globe.

Here for some background on the Wahhabi/al-Saud connection, and much information about the spread of Wahhabi teaching.

Here for an example of the kind of person designing the Wahhabi curriculum.

His credentials: Al-Fawzan is member of the Senior Council of Clerics, Saudi Arabia’s highest religious body, a member of the Council of Religious Edicts and Research, the Imam of Prince Mitaeb Mosque in Riyadh, and a professor at Imam Mohamed Bin Saud Islamic University, the main Wahhabi center of learning in the country.

His statement: “Slavery is a part of Islam,” he says in the tape, adding: “Slavery is part of jihad, and jihad will remain as long there is Islam.”

Not much room for peaceful interpretation there.

Quote:
For what it's worth, my understanding of it was that Saudi Arabia had a Wahhabist majority, one of the 'fun' things autocrats can do is make sure everyone is of the right religion. Sadly I don't have any numbers to confirm this, but it's also entirely plausible that Wahhabism is just the religion of the aristocracy...

Vass
Hey, this history degree is actually useful for something...


Wahhabism is indeed the state religion, and its supremacy is strictly enforced by the government. Saudi Arabia bans the importation of Christian crosses and images of the Buddha, and openly practicing any religion other than Islam is an offense with serious consequences.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 19, 2003 12:57 pm 
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i'm french


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 19, 2003 1:06 pm 
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What was that, Ero? Speak up. You are starting to sound French over there.


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