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PostPosted: Tue Dec 23, 2003 10:20 am 
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PTLIS wrote:
This is fuking stupid. To me the attack was never about the building, never about the terror and never about America.


Quite bluntly, you're wrong. You should notice the fact that it wasn't a British building that was targetted, nor a Japanese one, nor an Australian one. It was about America, specifically about attacking America. As for the why of it, I'll give you a little hint: "the Great Satan."

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It is about the 2,752 people who lost theit lives. It is about these people's family. Their Freinds. It is about the Paramedics and Firepeople who lost their lives as the towers collapsed, their family and their freinds.


Their deaths are important, but the manner of their deaths is equally important. Far more people die in automobile accidents each year than died in the towers, and yet that does not spark a massive outcry against cars. If the towers had collapsed and all four planes crashed because of some freak accident, and those same 2,752 people would be no less dead, it would be a great tragedy but the event would not have had such an impact on the nation as a whole. Consider the short- and long-term effects of the sinkings of the Titanic versus the Arizona and its sister battleships at Pearl Harbor. The Titanic was an accident, prompted stricter safety laws and precautions, and became a well-known historical event. Pearl Harbor, as everyone knows, was an attack that brought the U.S. into World War II; this, I would say, had a significantly greater impact on history than the Titanic.

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That is what is is about. The most fitting memorial possible would be to prevent such an attack against a civilian target from ever happening again in <b>any</b> country.


Process of this is currently underway.

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If you want something physical then leave the site as it is now, fuck this commercialist BS. If anyone thinks that the tower is for anything but recouping money then you are a fool.


I personally hate the new design. But as far as symbolism goes, rebuilding the towers is important. In a nod to practicality, they don't extend the functional floors above 70, because that's the height most workers in a survey reported they would be comfortable with.

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General Gir wrote:
Those who aren't American don't really get the full effect of it...
[/end rant]


Don't get me started you fucking imbecile. Do you have any idea how many foreign nationals were in the buildings, how many people (Americans and foreigners) fave family outside the country. Just because the attack happened on American soil does not make it an American tragedy, it was a tragedy for everyone equally so. Fucking patriotic idiot, symptematic of the mentality which caused so many stupid actions following 9/11.

You make me sick.


The foreign nationals were collateral damage. The attack was aimed at America, not at Japan or Britian or France or India or any of the other nations which lost citizens in the attack. While it was not limited to being an American tragedy, it certainly had a larger effect on America than on any of the other nations. To dismiss this fact as "patriotic idiocy" is itself ludicrous.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 23, 2003 10:38 am 
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And H-Kat's attempt to diffuse the idiocy bites the dust.

Let's just shut the fuck up about politics and make penis jokes.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 23, 2003 11:40 am 
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 23, 2003 11:44 am 
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*sigh* Kylear: You never listen to anyones opinion unless it is the same as the one you currently hold so i'm not even going to bother arguing with you other than to say this:

Kylaer wrote:
The foreign nationals were collateral damage.


Makes me sick.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 23, 2003 11:45 am 
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Why the Internet is like a Penis:

  • It can be up or down. It's more fun when it's up, but it makes it hard to get any real work done.
  • In the long-distant past, its only purpose was to transmit information considered vital to the survival of the species. Some people still think that's the only thing it should be used for, but most folks today use it for fun most of the time.
  • It has no conscience and no memory. Left to its own devices, it will just do the same damn dumb things it did before.
  • It provides a way to interact with other people. Some people take this interaction very seriously, others treat it as a lark. Sometimes it's hard to tell what kind of person you're dealing with until it's too late.
  • If you don't apply the appropriate protective measures, it can spread viruses.
  • It has no brain of its own. Instead, it uses yours. If you use it too much, you'll find it becomes more and more difficult to think coherently.
  • We attach an importance to it that is far greater than its actual size and influence warrant.
  • If you're not careful what you do with it, it can get you in big trouble.
  • It has its own agenda. Somehow, no matter how good your intentions, it will warp your behavior. Later you may ask yourself "why on earth did I do that?"
  • Some folks have it, some don't.
  • Those who have it would be devastated if it were ever cut off. They think that those who don't have it are somehow inferior. They think it gives them power. They are wrong.
  • Those who don't have it may agree that it's a nifty toy, but think it's not worth the fuss that those who do have it make about it. Still, many of those who don't have it would like to try it.
  • Once you've started playing with it, it's hard to stop. Some people would just play with it all day if they didn't have work to do.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 23, 2003 12:37 pm 
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PTLIS, I think you misunderstand my point. I am not saying their deaths were insignificant; I am saying that their deaths were not the terrorists' goal. The goal was to kill Americans and hurt America, plain and simple.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 23, 2003 12:52 pm 
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PTLIS wrote:
This is fuking stupid. To me the attack was never about the building, never about the terror and never about America. It is about the 2,752 people who lost theit lives.


A man who dies from falling and breaking his neck is just as dead as a man who is shot 5 times at point blank range, but to those who actually care about the deceased, the manner of the death matters quite a lot.

Please do not minimize the people who have died there in your effort to put down Americans, PTLIS, normally I tolerate a bit of it but in this subject I absolutely will not, don't bullshit and pretend you care when you obviously do not.

PTLIS wrote:
That is what is is about. The most fitting memorial possible would be to prevent such an attack against a civilian target from ever happening again in any country.


Woah, and the point of this statement was 'OMEG AMERIKKKA SUXZ, U GOTTA GIVE TEH ARABZ LURVE IN TEH FACE AND TEY'LL <3 U BAK'?

I mean at first its so self-evident that I say "uh...retard...?" but then I think maybe you're trying to critisize America again.

PTLIS wrote:
If you want something physical then leave the site as it is now, fuck this commercialist BS. If anyone thinks that the tower is for anything but recouping money then you are a fool.


I know this might amaze you PTLIS, but we here would prefer if we rebuild and make money on the WTC sites, mainly because leaving it a piece of empty space would, many people feel, be giving the terrorists a victory.

PTLIS wrote:
Just because the attack happened on American soil does not make it an American tragedy, it was a tragedy for everyone equally so. Fucking patriotic idiot, symptematic of the mentality which caused so many stupid actions following 9/11.


Uhm sorry...? So the Russians suffered equal to the Americans? You Brits?

No. More Americans died than any other group, our building got fucked up the ass, and our firefighters, medics etc got killed trying to save the people in the towers. It was an attack on America in particular and western civilization in general. Do not attempt to pretend like you in england suffered for a bunch of people you don't actually care about.

PTLIS wrote:
You make me sick.


Translation: You dare to actually say that Americans felt a pain different and in larger magnitude on 9-11 than anyone else, and despite the fact that you know, we lost more people, it was an attack on a nation that has rarely been attacked, and has a feeling of invincibility- perhaps wrongly, but hey, whatever- we are of course wrong, everyone felt an equal amount of pain to America.

It is of course our inferior intellect and rationality compared to you european supermen, who could better control your equal amount of pain, that was the cause of everything after 9-11. WE MUST BOW TO THOSE WHO KNOW BETTER THAN US.

H-kat wrote:
As usual, Kylaer manages to make things worse just by showing up. PTLIS, I understand how ignorant Gir's comment was, but it has to be expected, as an American, his opinion will be biased.


Lets see, Kylaer makes a point, the people responding: "OMEG WTFLOLZ U R TEH IGNORANT!!1111oneoneone" without actually responding to him. Woah, thats classy folks, next time why don't you just ignore it when you have no real response because hate?

I hope to God that was intentional irony. "He's ignorant for saying America was hurt more than Canada or Britain, because he's just a stupid ignorant American."

Yeah, people complain Americans are too up on "we're better than you" mentality?

H-Kat wrote:
Gir, Well, that was a remarkably interpretable and poorly chosen bit of words, thought I sence the intent. As someone other than an American, and you'll get a clearer picture.


Again with what I hope is intentional irony. The idiotic sense of the automatic inferiority of Americans, and not ever thinking "hey, maybe they actually experienced something DIFFERENT from us, gasp, because they're people just like us, not apes in business suits"

Classy shit, H-kat, lets hear your "Canadians are the master race" theory now.

H-Kat wrote:
-edit- This is like the first post I've had in a while with relevent content without being out to crack a joke. Please don't tell me I've wasted it. -edit-


This makes me sad. It WAS wasted, and horribly. I ask you nicely to examine your own bigotted beliefs before posting on how Americans "are" again.

-MiB

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 23, 2003 1:00 pm 
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Image

(Either that or move it to the debate forum.)


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 23, 2003 1:12 pm 
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Why was this moved? I mean, it only went on a side tangent. If every time we get into a conversation that has depth to it, and people disagree, we call it a debate... I don't see a need.

But oh well

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 23, 2003 2:02 pm 
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Mmm... Lesbians... *opts for the lesbians*

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 23, 2003 2:13 pm 
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Ay there is enough testosterone in here to make me grow facial hair.

I opt for lesbians too.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 24, 2003 12:50 am 
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Thank you, MiB, and anyone else who defended what I was trying to get across, even if I do get overtaken by emotion whenever 9/11 is mentioned.
Yes, there were people of many nations in that building, but it happened on AMERICAN soil, and most of the people who were killed there WERE American. Ya, I'm biased, and sure, I didn't think of the BEST words to translate my feelings into type, but I'm sincere in my beliefs.

PTLIS, I'd just like to know WHY you decided to flame me to end when I stated that it affected Americans more. It's an honest statement. Japan, Russia, Germany, The UK,etc., were surely saddened, and indeed wept with the rest of the world, but not nearly as much as we in America did.

I believe that debates (as this has turned into) are lost once one side starts losing control and insulting the other side. Thus, PTLIS, your hyper-angry rambling serves no purpose.

"Patriotic Idiocy" indeed.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 24, 2003 11:10 am 
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Your two cents, and mine... I think mine's worth about 1 1/2 of yours, now... make it three, and

The Man In Black wrote:
H-Kat wrote:
Gir, Well, that was a remarkably interpretable and poorly chosen bit of words, thought I sence the intent. As someone other than an American, and you'll get a clearer picture.


Again with what I hope is intentional irony. The idiotic sense of the automatic inferiority of Americans, and not ever thinking "hey, maybe they actually experienced something DIFFERENT from us, gasp, because they're people just like us, not apes in business suits"

Classy shit, H-kat, lets hear your "Canadians are the master race" theory now.

H-Kat wrote:
-edit- This is like the first post I've had in a while with relevent content without being out to crack a joke. Please don't tell me I've wasted it. -edit-


This makes me sad. It WAS wasted, and horribly. I ask you nicely to examine your own bigotted beliefs before posting on how Americans "are" again.

-MiB


Really, MiB? Oh. My. God. You are sooooo right. every thought and belief of mine are shite. It seems my xenophobia is getting the better of me.

Or not. Y'know, with all your spirited words, preacher, you preach about how my pro-Canadian biases are flawed. Tell, me, MiB, where did the 'Master Race' insert fall into place?

Cause I've to say, MiB, your snide remarks don't help the issue. What, an American patriot tells me 'so', so it must be?

Besides. You're arguement works in my favor. Gir's own words, words you've taken it upon yourself to defend, was a blanket statement on how it affected 'only Americans'. The reason I posted as I did is simply because I believe in the Canadian Ideal. All points are valid, his, and mine. And I'm doing my dambdest to keep your mindset in regards, but it's certainly becoming a strain.

Tell you what. You tell me the -world- wasn't affected. You tell me that this was only aimed at the Americans, and I will stop arguing, simple because that's possibly the most ignorant stance I think you could possibly stoop to. American allied countries? Import-export relations?

How about the value of human life in general?

If you've taken such (what I can only regard as a sad, and perhaps even cowardly isolationist) stance (feel free to *correct* me about this one, Jim. But if you plan to have any sway, or even a relevent stance, let's drop your personal attacks. They've no place in regards to the 'big picture', by it's very definition, and that's the issue, isn't it?) because I'm saying that America wasn't the only victim, then there's nothing I can say to give you a broader view of thing. You're not an idiot, and you're not this closed minded, Jim. Think.

-Kitty

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 24, 2003 11:47 am 
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Ryan wrote:
Besides. You're arguement works in my favor. Gir's own words, words you've taken it upon yourself to defend, was a blanket statement on how it affected 'only Americans'. The reason I posted as I did is simply because I believe in the Canadian Ideal. All points are valid, his, and mine. And I'm doing my dambdest to keep your mindset in regards, but it's certainly becoming a strain.


Gir did not say that. At all.

I did not say that. At all.

That is all.

-MiB

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 24, 2003 3:51 pm 
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*looks at the design for the building* Oh, that's smart. The WTC crumbled, so let's make a building with the top eighth of it made entirely of glass and fragile things. Smart one.

Anyway.

IMHO, the attack, while made on American soil, was more of an attack on the free world. Osama picked a country that he knew would give and get the most reaction to it. Because really, a hotel blows up in India, it makes the news, what, maybe three days? A building explodes in Britain? That'll be on the news for about a month. But mess with those patriotic Americans and they'll NEVER let this shit die.

I think it's 'cause this country's got a "bit" of a superiority complex, but that's just me. :wink: But that's beside the point.

The point is that both sides are right. It was aimed at the "those bloody infidels" who are most of the free world, but commited in America, where it'd get the most air time and attention. *shruggity* Then again, that's how I see it.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 24, 2003 4:51 pm 
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All I will say:

Friends: About 200 episodes.(America)
The Office: 12 episodes and one Christmas Special.(Britain)
Grass Roots: 14 episodes.(Australia)

Actor.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 24, 2003 10:12 pm 
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^^^
I believe the phrase I'm looking for is "We win"


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 24, 2003 10:28 pm 
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American superiority complex? Absolutely, but is that so wrong?
As one american individual compaired to one from the Republic of Congo I figure each has equal worth. If worth is not equal it has nothing to do with what country he or she is from. On the other hand, as a nation, America is vastly better than Congo. As a country America has ungodly power in comparison, takes better care of its people, and dosn't have a coup/civil war/assassination/fit of internal genocide/etc every year.

Are all men created equal? I think so. (though value may change later if you turn out to be a homicidal maniac or a telemarketer) Are all countries? Nope. Thats just my highly skewed viewpoint (like any living person isn't skewed) though so feel free to list it under "hot-air blown out of an American's ass".

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 24, 2003 11:20 pm 
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General Gir wrote:
^^^
I believe the phrase I'm looking for is "We win"


You don't get it do you?

I can watch the Office about 10 times again and again. They finished on a high and didn't waste any material on filler, Grass Roots was similar, although it got weaker towards the end of season 2.
I can watch Friends until the opening credits, then I throw up.

The only shows from the US I can watch more than once is Family Guy and that was cancelled and Curb Your Enthusiasm which they don't show enough of in Australia.

Actor.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 24, 2003 11:58 pm 
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I believe thats called differences in cultures, Actor.

The funny thing is, America's culture is spreading around and will probably some day envelope all other cultures, barring some major historical event.

Hey, I guess thats the new imperialism, isn't it? Doesn't that make me an imperialist?

Cool.

-MiB

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